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SEOS Surround Build - Page 5

post #121 of 189
Thread Starter 
Just in Time Delivery

Well, my "get it done today" didn't quite pan out, but I did get them done with a few hours to spare before our Christmas guests showed up.

I'll post build details later, but in the meantime below are some photo's

Just completed


Backside. This has the mounting gear and terminal posts.


Mini Me. Not that much smaller than my mains...


On the wall. The picture doesn't do the size of these things justice. They are big.


Another shot.


I didn't have time to test the speaker via REW, but will later. I did try them out in place of my L/R mains and they sounded great!! Up on the sides, they sound fantastic!!!

Thanks very much Tux and Erich!!! You definitely have a winning design here!
post #122 of 189
Java,

Looking good - very good!
I like the finish. Is that a wood veneer on the box?

And a belated Merry X-Mas
post #123 of 189
Looks like that mount gives you plenty of tilt. What do you think of it? Obviously you have it in a stud. Are they tough enough to hold the speaker up with that kind of leverage?
post #124 of 189
Wow very cool. I hope those mounts are secure!

By the way, this is the perfect use for this design. The low cross, steep cross over combined with the close driver spacing means you'll have wide vertical coverage all while maintaining the sensitivity and power handling to hang with your mains. I hope you enjoy them for a long time smile.gif
post #125 of 189
Looks like that mount gives you plenty of tilt. What do you think of it? Obviously you have it in a stud. Are they tough enough to hold the speaker up with that kind of leverage?
post #126 of 189
Looks fantastic, Java! Great work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

I like the finish. Is that a wood veneer on the box?

It looks like the same finish as the mains (paint over the mdf). Incredible finish, that bondo work really pays off!
post #127 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Java,
Looking good - very good!
I like the finish. Is that a wood veneer on the box?
And a belated Merry X-Mas

Thanks, Cuzed. Merry belated Christmas to you, too.

No veneer. Just rustoleum flat black paint. I probably spent the most time on the paint. I was never happy with it. At first, I used a 4" foam roller, but found I kept getting an edge in the paint so I went with a 9" roller. Worked pretty good.

Here is the final foam roller I used. You can also see the prior layer of paint I was sanding.
post #128 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Looks like that mount gives you plenty of tilt. What do you think of it? Obviously you have it in a stud. Are they tough enough to hold the speaker up with that kind of leverage?

Yep. I like the tilt. I'll measure, but I think it was like a 20 degree tilt. The mount is adjustable, but at "full tilt", it seems right to me.

Wall mount.
post #129 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Wow very cool. I hope those mounts are secure!
By the way, this is the perfect use for this design. The low cross, steep cross over combined with the close driver spacing means you'll have wide vertical coverage all while maintaining the sensitivity and power handling to hang with your mains. I hope you enjoy them for a long time smile.gif

Yep. The mounts seem rock solid, but I may put some molly bolts in for peace of mind. I should have weighed the final boxes, but they were heavy. I should have stated in my note Brian that the mounts were very easy to install. Once on the wall, the boxes just slide on to the mounts.

Again, they sound great. Thanks very much, Tux!!

Now I'm starting to eye the rear and front (height speakers) for some new builds. tongue.gif Maybe your Alpha 8 designs?
post #130 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott C. View Post

Looks fantastic, Java! Great work.
It looks like the same finish as the mains (paint over the mdf). Incredible finish, that bondo work really pays off!

Thanks, Scott. As you know (following your thread) finishing is a needed but PITA step.

Yes. Same process as the mains: flat paint on MDF. I got a little better with bondo on this round. I mainly used wood filler on the mains, and wasn't terribly happy with the look. I used only bondo on the surrounds and was happier with finish.

But, then again, my artsy crafty wife thinks I'm crazy. I'm worrying over details that no one will ever see in my "bat cave". Well, I will see them. wink.gif

Good luck on your finishing!!
post #131 of 189
Thanks for posting a picture of the roller. I was actually going to ask what you used, haha
post #132 of 189
Thread Starter 
Painting Tips

I don't think I'm worthy to be giving tips, but maybe you can learn from my mistakes.

General Tips
  1. At least two layers of primer
  2. Sand between each layer (primer and paint).
  3. Rattle can paint on cutouts
  4. Use foam roller vs rattle can on main paint
  5. Numerous layers (2+)


Primer. I tired different ones, but this covers the best.


Flat Black Paint


Pre paint. I did two layers of primer. You can also see on the vertical edges where I sanded down some high levels.


Rattle can cutouts. I found on my LCR build that using a roller on the cutouts didn't work. Rattle can is easier and blends in fine.


1st roller set. I used this set on my LCR, but you'll see some future issues with it.


1st Layer


Edging Issue. Even after many layers of sanding and being careful, I still got these edges in the paint.


Solution. Wider (9") foam roller


Final product
post #133 of 189
Thanks for sharing your painting tips. I'll be painting a cabinet soon, and your specific suggestions helps a lot.

-Max
post #134 of 189
Great work Java, outstanding paint job. Sorry if I missed it, are you lining these with insulation again like the mains?
post #135 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

Great work Java, outstanding paint job. Sorry if I missed it, are you lining these with insulation again like the mains?

Thanks. You didn't miss anything. I haven't posted those steps, yet.

Yes, I did the same insulation approach as the mains. R-13, unfaced (pulled the facing off), and glued to the inner walls.
post #136 of 189
Thread Starter 
Driver Mounts

I took a different approach to my "knuckle dragger" approach (i.e., wing nuts) from my main build. Since this build didn't have a removable back like my mains, I decided to use hurricane nuts.

I used epoxy and "pre-threaded" them, but still had issues. One of the screws binded and ended up spinning one of the hurricane nuts out. I tried everything short of taking a hack saw, but I couldn't get the screw loose. The spun out screw was on a wave guide and it seemed pretty stable so I just put some white glue on to keep it from rattling and called it a day.

Also, I should note that I had to sand out the cutouts a fair amount to get the driver and waveguide to fit. They fit fine when I dry fitted them, but the layers of primer and paint added up. Also, for this woofer, the speaker wire tabs dug into the mdf, so I had to bend them back.

1/4" Drill Holes. As note, my #8 screws were too short for the waveguides so I used the #10 I used for my woofers. I had to drill out the waveguides a little (used a 13/64" bit) for the bigger screws.


Nuts and Screws. I used #10 socket head screws and #10 hurricane nuts.



Epoxy. This is the epoxy I used. Again, work "ok" except for one spin out.


Pre-Epoxy. This is before I applied the epoxy. Note, I used a washer on the waveguide, but couldn't fit them on the woofer cutout.


Tightened Woofer Mounts. Per last note, I couldn't use a washer on the woofer cutout, but the screw heads held in the mdf when tightening.
post #137 of 189
Thread Starter 
Wall Mount Brackets and Speaker Terminals

Wall Mounts. I used these TV mounts from PE


Wall Mount Bracket Positioning. Per my prior tests, I figured that to get the right angle I would need mount the brackets on lower 1/4 of the cabinet.


Mount Screws. My friend who help me on my mains woodwork let me borrow these Spax screws. Works great on MDF. No pre-drilling.


Final Mount. I zipped two screws with washers into the vertical brace.


Speaker Terminals. These are the same I used on my main build. Work great. Easy to install and no need to seal.


Terminal Holes. I drilled two 1/4" holes 1.5" inches on either side of center to avoid the center brace.


Pre-Hammered. This is what the terminals look like before you hammer them in.


Post-Hammered. And after some light hammering. In my main build, I was going to seal these with a rubber gasket, but after hammering them in I felt they were tight enough.


Final View.
post #138 of 189
Thread Starter 
Pink Stuff & Crossover Mounting

For the stuffing, like my main build, I used R-13 glued to the inside walls. Remember to wear gloves...

Insulation


Gluing. I used wood glue on the interior walls and then pulled the facing off of the insulation.


Stuffing. I left a little room for the speaker terminals and crossover boards, which I filled in with loose insulation before sealing up.


Crossover Prep. As reminder, I built separate boards for the LF and HF crossovers due to the tight fit in the box. Here is the final hook up with the the +/- wires soldered to the mounting washers of the speaker terminals.


Mounted and Connected. I used velcro strips to secure the crossover boards inside of the boxes


Ready for drivers.


Drivers installed
post #139 of 189
You do a great job documenting the steps in you builds Java, its good stuff. smile.gif
post #140 of 189
I used hurricane nuts on one build. Never again. You don't know frustration until the stuffing gets pulled into to the nut! Good old wood screws work just great and are loads easier in every way.
post #141 of 189
Oh wow. That looks so much better than my test enclosure tongue.gif

Thanks a lot for documenting all this. Hopefully many others can glean from all the work you've put into this. Hope you enjoy them!
post #142 of 189
Es muy bueno, no? Si!
post #143 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Oh wow. That looks so much better than my test enclosure tongue.gif
Thanks a lot for documenting all this. Hopefully many others can glean from all the work you've put into this. Hope you enjoy them!

NP. I still have the crossover video to do and need to work on the rest of the kit instructions.

As update on the sound quality, I got myself a new AVR (Onkyo 818) for Christmas and have been dialing in the system with MultEQ XT32. The system sounds fantastic in 5.1. Now, I can look into 9.2. wink.gif

I had my brother in law over for the holidays and demoed the system for him. He used to be in the record business and after hearing Dark Side of The Moon in SACD, he said it was the clearest and loudest he had ever heard. The clocks in Time were so clear it was freaky.
post #144 of 189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PassingInterest View Post

Es muy bueno, no? Si!

Thanks, PI. That means a lot to me coming from you.

So, when are you going to do a SEOS build?? tongue.gif
post #145 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

So, when are you going to do a SEOS build?? tongue.gif

This Spring I intend to do a SEOS build concurrently with a Mael-X 18 build. You really did do a great job, man!
post #146 of 189

I bought a couple Fusion Max kits that use the Delta 10a and DNA-350, so I think this is the same speaker.

It also happens that I'm upgrading from Paradigm Performance speakers: Titan v3 and CC-170 v3!

So this thread will be a big help to this noob.

 

Tuxedocivic's comment about the greater vertical directivity of this design (which is desired in surrounds) has me wondering if it's not as appropriate for a front L/R or L/C/R purpose that I'm using them for?


Edited by Eyleron - 1/14/13 at 9:35am
post #147 of 189
No it is just that with surround speakers the listening positions are spread out over the vertical axis of the speaker more then they are with the L/C/R, so the wider lobe helps with keeping even coverage over the whole seating area. That is not as necessary for the L/C/R where most listeners are within a narrow vertical window relative to the L/C/R but the wider lobe does not hurt performance.
post #148 of 189

OK good, thanks. I was worried that it was an intended wide vertical dispersion and would splash the ceiling and floors. 

 

Now that I think about it, since I eventually want to do an AT screen, I suppose I should've requested no front ports so I could port to the side? Or now I'll just have to leave a few extra inches between speaker and screen?

post #149 of 189
Ya, you got the same kit Eyleron. Thanks for buying it. The name changed from Delta Max to Fusion Max once Erich made the Karma, Fusion, Alpha series names.

I'd like to explain the, imo, biggest advantage to this design over the others since your question relates.

Here is what happens with the speaker when you go from 10, 20, 30 degrees above the on axis. Sorry, this is an old frequency response before I finalized the cross over, so it's a little rough. The trend is the same though. Hopefully this will make sense.



You see the green line there is a bit of a dip starting to form at the cross over point. That dip is much worse IF we raise the cross over point or separate the distance between the drivers (ie. a 12" or 15" woofer).

So let's look at the Fusion Pure with a 1450hz cross over.



Not bad, but worse. Now about 10db down at the cross over.

The thing I'd like to mention is it can be different above and below the on axis. Take a look at the Fusion Pure below axis (sorry, winter came around the time the Fusion Max finished, so I only have simulations to properly show this, the Fusion Pure shows the effect well enough).



You see there are much bigger nulls below axis than above. It's quite difficult to aim the lobe up like that unless using an active cross over, but it did work out for me on this one. I wanted this to happen for a few reasons.

1. We rarely listen while lying on the floor.
2. Floor reflections are easier to absorb with carpet or rugs, than ceiling reflections.
3. When you stand up, you don't want to think, "huh, where did the vocals go?".
4. For surrounds close to the ceiling pointing down (like Java) there is a fair bit of reflected sound off the ceiling.
5. If mounted under a screen, these naturally fire up a little.

Kind of wordy and technical, but hopefully that helps somewhat. In the first few pages of the "hey guys" thread there is quite a debate about how important this is. The truth is, it is important, but sometimes more than other times.
post #150 of 189
FYI, here is the on axis frequency response of the finished cross over. There is an option in the cross over to change a resistor to change the top end up and down. I use an AT screen so I left it a little up.

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