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prosumer camcorder advice - Page 2

post #31 of 66
"I know, you are using Windows XP on a Pentium computer with a 10GB hard drive. ... turns out touch screen focus, a cool feature, is really usefu for making good videosl. But then its a new feature, and you have no experience with it.
I thought we were having an intelligent discussion here, but you are throwing words into the air without reading what I wrote"

It's sarcasm, get it? You are hypercritic, right, so you know what that is.

Now that we know your standard for videos is DVD-quality and you have old, inferior equipment (by choice you claim!) we can better understand some of your advice. This was very useful for me, and I hope others who now can appropriately interpret your comments.

I think most peple here are striving to get high-quality, HD video. They are not looking to make DVD's (really?). Most people do have HD monitors. And hands-on experience with current technology by knowledgeable people is what provides the best info to make decisions on *today's* technology choices. And, you forgot to mention that 24P gives choppy motion, so it is useless for sports or panning or taking videos of anything that moves relatively fast, like kids or trains or pets. I know you know this, but I hardly think 24p is something most people would want to shoot unless they had poor computer equipment.

I share your disdain for interlaced, and I respect your considerable knowledge. But it seems odd you settle for unsharp while waiting for a phantom new technology, all the while ignoring the advancements in sensors and processors, which are as important as codecs and bitrates.
Edited by markr041 - 11/6/12 at 6:57pm
post #32 of 66
Mark, was it you who have recently posted a link to a zombie-themed advertisement shot with the AF100? Or am I confusing you with someone else?
post #33 of 66
Not me.
post #34 of 66
Indeed.

> Now that we know your standard for videos is DVD-quality and you have old, inferior equipment (by choice you claim!) we can better understand some of your advice.

Owning older equipment does not mean I do not or did not own newer one. Similarly, providing technical information or giving advice is quite different to sharing my own approach.

> And hands-on experience with current technology by knowledgeable people is what provides the best info to make decisions on *today's* technology choices.

You are going in circles. The SD600 and the HMC40 are not today's choices? Well, yes these are three- and two- year old camcorders respectively, but they are still very much today's choices. What is different? Better spot focus and steadier OIS?

> And, you forgot to mention that 24P gives choppy motion, so it is useless for sports or panning or taking videos of anything that moves relatively fast, like kids or trains or pets. I know you know this, but I hardly think 24p is something most people would want to shoot unless they had poor computer equipment.

Why would I mention negatives if you asked me why am I shooting in 24p? It would be strange to choose a format because of a negative feature. All the negatives and positives are well-known, I don't see a point listing them and arguing about them. I mentioned my current choice of equipment, and you decided to mount a case against me and any of my existing or future advice based on this. Kind of like "if you screwed around with an assistant girl you can no longer function as a president".

> I share your disdain for interlaced, and I respect your considerable knowledge. But it seems odd you settle for unsharp while waiting for a phantom new technology, all the while ignoring the advancements in sensors and processors, which are as important as codecs and bitrates.

It would be fun to play with Long-G. Presently, I am carrying just one small bag with a DSLR and with the SD9, and I am not worried to put this small cam in my pocket and to pull it out amidst dusty wind. Gives me freedom. I did not want to tarnish or break the SD600 because I was not sure that I would keep it. If I had just one camera this would be different.
post #35 of 66
Thread Starter 
Ok guys any more thoughts about my questions???
post #36 of 66
"Regarding the record from the videocamera directly to an external HD, I thought that some camcorders highlighted this feature. Perhaps I do not understand what this feature really does, some plaes state that this can be done with certain models without a pc (or I assume alswo a mac). Dreaming?"

You claim to have done research, yet you do not know what this feature does?

It means you can connect by usb a hard drive directly to the camcorder and copy the video files to the hard drive. That's it. No computer needed, which means that the brand of the computer *not* needed is irrelevant: you do not need a PC, a Mac, a Unix machine, a Cray supercomputer, ...

But you do need a computer to do anything with the files - edit them or even play them once they are out of the camera (maybe you could attach the drive to a media player and watch the raw files, but the camcorder can play the raw files too).


This feature is convenient if you are out in the field and have taken more than 64GB's of video (the max of one sd card) and need to dump the files. Otherwise it is not very useful - you could just carry another sd card. And since you have to connect the drive anyway to a computer to do anything with the video files, it is just as easy to take the sd card and insert it into the computer. This is hardly a feature that would be a priority for just about any video scenario.

And yes, I have camcorders that do this, and I have done it - this is not based on reading about it. In the days when sd cards were low capacity and expensive or cameras only had internal memory this might have been useful. This also suggests that buying a camcorder for its internal memory capacity makes little sense - it is inconvenient to use internal memory compared to sd cards, for the reasons stated above.

It is unfortunate that it is difficult now to actually try camcorders hands on. Internet buying lowers costs but it makes choosing among the hardware, where personal use-effectiveness matters, difficult. But you really have be skeptical about any answers you get in forums without a full understanding of the priorities, actual experience and quirks of who is providing the answer.
post #37 of 66
I thought I was going to wake up and read about election results this morning. You guys are far more entertaining!
post #38 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

I thought I was going to wake up and read about election results this morning. You guys are far more entertaining!

and last week you thought this board is dead... :-)
post #39 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyker1212 View Post

and last week you thought this board is dead... :-)
Yesterday I started a thread about a camera nobody talks about. I thought it might create a little interest. It got so busy here my new thread has slid off the bottom of the screen.
post #40 of 66
Thread Starter 
Thankd MarkOR41 I perhaps did not adequately phrase my question. Yes I though it meant direct through usb transfer to a hard drive without a computer. So you confirmed my thought. I have done editing on a computer using a variety of programs so I know that a computer is essential. Isn't it hard to "converse" sometimes on this forum because we do not know what each other knows.

Bear with me for another questions. I understand about sd card transfer etc. But when a camcorder has an internal flash drive memory (or whatever form it is) is it more difficult to transfer that data to a computer and/or hard drive than using the sd card? Are things configured different per the model of camera?

Another reason why the direct to harddrive transfer without a computer might be useful is with my notebook I usually run a faster external HD that has all of the media I need for whatever project on it, so direct transfer might save a step???

Sigh...this is becoming one of my most difficult decisions, buying a house or a car was easier....
post #41 of 66
"But when a camcorder has an internal flash drive memory (or whatever form it is) is it more difficult to transfer that data to a computer and/or hard drive than using the sd card?"

It is not more difficult but it is not very useful: to get the data off of the internal memory you must attach the camera to either a hard drive or a computer by usb. Copying, say, 32GB over usb 2.0 takes a while, which means you cannot use your camera for that time. Tying up the camera to transfer files is not a good idea. And for some cameras you need to plug the camera in (attach AC) to copy direct to drive, since the drive gets its power from the camera. This is all cumbersome with multiple wires. Out in the field this would be ludicrous. If you do not have to plug in the computer to copy directly to drive, then copying the files to a hard drive directly from internal memory for a half hour or so would drain the camera battery, fast. Not a good use of the battery, and takes away battery power for actually shooting video.

With sd cards, you just swap them out and then you can copy from the sd card to the computer (or an externally attached drive on the computer) whenever you want.

My point is that these features - direct to hard drive or large internal memory (especially) - are totally unimportant in choosing a camcorder compared to size, lens, sensor, stabilizer, lcd, viewfinder, presence of focus rings, touch panels, buttons, manual modes, audio. 32GB sd cards are $20-$25, are waterproof and shockproof and can be used to both store the data permanently (better than hard drives) or to transfer the video files to the computer to do what you want with them.
post #42 of 66
Thread Starter 
Well, I think I have decided to get the Sony nx30. I love it's steadyshot feature, small size, I know it isn't as great as the panasonic ac-90 but it is small which is important to me. Does anyone know if it has touch screen focus selection? Like what was talked about before several posts back in this thread? in order to do electronic rack focus? I have looked everywhere to try and find out to no avail.

So, I might be making a wrong decision but at some point a decision has to be made. As is, I wil likely have to pay for overnight shipping...in order to get it before out London trip (leaving this Tuesday).

Thanks everyone for your help, I have learned alot. Of course please feel free to make more suggestions and comments (especially if you think I am making a horrible mistake....
post #43 of 66
Good choice. It has touch screen focus.

I know the Sony pro pages on this camera are a bit cryptic, but if you look at the Sony descriptions (and manual) for the Sony HDR CX760V you will learn about almost all of the features of the NX30. I believe the only feature of the CX760 not in the NX30 is surround-sound audio (5.1). But the NX30 has more pro features, including uncompressed audio.
post #44 of 66
I've tried to make the point many times that almost anything in good hands that is 1080p60 capable will produce video with terrific picture quality. Audio is the hard part and the NX30 seems to be a clever collection of Sony components in a minimum sized package that can get the audio part right. Good choice!

Bill
post #45 of 66
As an owner of a NX30 , let me talk about audio: Although it has no 5.1 , like its consumer sister, it has a choice of Dolby Digital and uncompressed PCM. For some strange reason, if you record 1080/60P and PCM the WMP on the Windows 7 will not play the audio. This has been reported on DVINFO forum as well. The workaround is to use Splash Lite to playback the clips. Tried VLC and it doesn't play the PCM audio as well. Any other resoluition with PCM will play just fine on WMP and DD will play with 1080/60P. It's the combination of 1080/60P + PCM that is causing some problem.

Using Vegas Pro, 1080P and PCM plays fine and any output rendered will became playable on WMP. Since I edit everything, it's no big deal but if you unbox the camera, set it to 1080P and PCM (the best combo), and try to playback the clips using WMP , you can get scared and even return the camera.

1080/60P + PCM.....audio is not played with WMP but plays fine with Splash. No problems with Vegas Pro either.
1080/60P + Dolby Digital.......plays just fine with everything, including WMP.
1080/60i or 720P...plays fine with PCM or DD.

The included XLR mic is good enough . Internal mic is also good but useless for interviews. There are 3 choices of mic: Included XLR, internal mic or any external mic, like a Lavalier.

The only other difference between the NX30 and the PJ760 is the ability to record 720/60p with the prosumer model. The included software is also different, something called "Content Management Utility" but I never use it.
post #46 of 66
As this reviewer points out, the NX30 has no full manual exposure control, only priority modes for aperture, shutter speed and overall exposure. My old HDR-HC1 allowed locking both aperture and shutter speed simultaneously despite being a consumer sister of the professional HVR-A1, yet the modern NX30, a professional cousin of a consumer CX760/PJ760, is not capable of that.
post #47 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

As this reviewer points out, the NX30 has no full manual exposure control, only priority modes for aperture, shutter speed and overall exposure. My old HDR-HC1 allowed locking both aperture and shutter speed simultaneously despite being a consumer sister of the professional HVR-A1, yet the modern NX30, a professional cousin of a consumer CX760/PJ760, is not capable of that.

True, but the priority modes do everything I need and that's what matters. That's not a camera for an indie movie but for interviews it's perfect. Every single camera mentioned here has some pros and cons. The CX760V had great reviews, like this:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-Handycam-HDR-CX760V-Camcorder-Review.htm

You can't compare a tape camera with a modern 2012 high-tech camcorder. You don't listen to music using a gramophone, do you ?
post #48 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

You can't compare a tape camera with a modern 2012 high-tech camcorder.
I can't compare two cameras because they have different recording media? How's that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

You don't listen to music using a gramophone, do you ?
What my music listening habits have to do with particular feature or lack of such on a camcorder? Personal attacks will bring you nowhere. I just mentioned a certain feature (or more like a non-feature) that Sony insists on putting in their camcorders, now even in professional ones. They could easily allow both priority modes and full manual mode without making any changes to hardware, but just like other manufacturers Sony likes to cripple its equipment in one or another way to prevent rivalry within the brand. An age-known principle of divide et impera. The fully stabilized lens block is awesome though.
post #49 of 66
I didn't mean to personally attack you or anybody. My point is you can't compare old technology with current one. Hence the gramophone (exagerated, I agree) thing. Nothing wrong if you love the old stuff but, generally speaking, recording on a smart card, 1080/60P, better stabilizer and other modern things do make a big difference. Peace!
post #50 of 66
Apples and dead puppies. 1080p60 and fully-suspended lens block are cool and I am all for it, but often when they give us something new they take something back. I am not saying the NX30 is not good. I am merely pointing to a feature Sony consistently eradicating on its consumer and now on lower-pro lineup. Someone may assume that because this camera is sold as pro it has the regular set of pro controls. The camera could be even better if they left a piece of existing software in place.

Here you go: the NX30 has no full manual exposure controls. The AC90 has tiny sensors hence deep DOF. The XA10 does not have 1080p60 and its OIS is not as good.
post #51 of 66
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone. I feel like for what I want that I made a good decision. Only time (and shooting video) wil tell.

Now I do have a question (probably another can of worms), What sdhc card should I ge? I hear that certain manufacturers like SanDisk are the way to go. I am looking at 32 gb capacity but dont know what speed to get. I understand (I think) that the speed will primarily be reflected in the transferof files to the computer.

Any thoughts or advice?

Also does anyone reccomend a favorite camera bag. I like something that can be easy to pull the videocamera out from. I also like to shoot with a canon 20d and a variety of lenses.
post #52 of 66
http://vimeo.com/14725884

http://vimeo.com/18484574
60P is not everything,not even BD compatable except with the latest players and software
post #53 of 66
"60P is not everything" Another attempt to belittle higher quality equipment - and especially 108060p - by showing a (Panasonic GH2) video that is attractive that was taken by a professional videographer.


Sorry, the first one is almost all still shots. When the little girl moves, there is strange artifacting. Maybe due to using 24p (is 24p better than 60p?) The second one is quite soft (likely done in 720) and also softer than you can get with an NX30. The GH2 (which I own, with the same lens as used in the first video) is probably the best DSLR-type video camera in terms of resolution and artifacts, but it is still not as good in these dimensions as a mid-level consumer camcorder. Its dynamic range is no better either. It is also bulkier than the NX30 (without the audio attachment), has no good servo zoom capability (there are some lenses with power zoom, but that zoom is not nearly as smooth or controllable). And unless you are willing to lock down the camera and spend a lot of money for a fast lens (which comes with the NX30), it is actually worse in low-light. You have to lockdown because those fast lenses are noisy - changing focus and changing aperture make loud noises making them impossible to use in video unless locked in focus and aperture. These videos, like the others, are almost all set-up shots, not run and gun where fast autofocus, quiet smooth zoom and aperture are key, none of which this type of camera has. The GH2 is pretty good, for set-up shots and the shallower dof can come in handy sometimes.

These continuous interventions that try to belittle camera quality appear, and I say appear, to be sour grapes by people who have cameras that do not do 108060p (not to mention a host of other advancements). You can disprove this conjecture by merely indicating whether you actually have a 108060p camera. They are also rude - the poster just commits $2000 to a really good camcorder, and then someone says it really does not matter, all that matters is technique in shooting and editing. Is this more sour grapes? It looks like it


Does this mean I would prefer a sharp but shaky video of someone's cat to the above posted examples? no. I hope that someone who spends a lot on equipment knows what do do with it to maximize its potential, and the videos show that potential so they are certainly worth sharing. But in the contex of this thread they are less than helpful.


And the fact that someone has a better camera than you do does not mean you cannot take some great videos. You do not have to belittle camera quality.

Oh, and the new GH3, the successor to the GH2, has 108060p capability (but in an even bulkier package).
Edited by markr041 - 11/9/12 at 6:10am
post #54 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisadone View Post

Thanks everyone. I feel like for what I want that I made a good decision. Only time (and shooting video) wil tell.
Now I do have a question (probably another can of worms), What sdhc card should I ge? I hear that certain manufacturers like SanDisk are the way to go. I am looking at 32 gb capacity but dont know what speed to get. I understand (I think) that the speed will primarily be reflected in the transferof files to the computer.
Any thoughts or advice?
Also does anyone reccomend a favorite camera bag. I like something that can be easy to pull the videocamera out from. I also like to shoot with a canon 20d and a variety of lenses.

Any Lexar or Sandisk SDHC card should work fine, no need to go for the "pro" cards.

I bought this accessory that fits like a glove on the NX30:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=orderHistory&A=details&Q=&sku=645970&is=REG

It makes tthe camera even more stable when used as a grip, can be used as a small tripod and makes the zoom easier to control. I recommend it for any camera but specially for the Sonys with remote control (lanc).

Enjoy the camera, it's really nice.
post #55 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisadone View Post

I am looking at 32 gb capacity but dont know what speed to get. I understand (I think) that the speed will primarily be reflected in the transferof files to the computer.
The high quality 1080p60 setting produces data at about a third of what a Class 10 card can accept. The math involved is concerned with converting megabits per second to megabytes per second.

Most camera manuals say a Class 4 is all that is required by the camera, but there is little price difference compared to Class 10. So, most seem to buy SDHC Class 10 cards for the extra speed margin. Check the manual, but if you need a card on a trip or job, any Class 4 or above from any retail store will work for the camera.

There are faster SDXC cards that in theory could make the SD card to computer transfer faster, but there may be limitations. The speed ratings are shown with a different symbol on the card. It is like a "U" with a number 1 or 2 in it. One limitation is that the faster cards may not be usable in all computer card readers.

From Wikipedia: "The use of exFAT on some SDXC cards may render SDXC unsuitable as a universal exchange medium, as an SDXC card that uses exFAT would not be usable in all host devices."

It may be far more information than necessary, but you can read about SD cards here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDXC#SDXC. There is also some interesting reading on "AVCHD".

I have bought a variety of Class 10 SDHC brands from either Costco or Amazon based on sale prices. Currently the price seems to be about $1.00 per GB, or slightly less. They have all performed without issue. I've never spent the extra money for a SDXC card and I don't think they are as readily available.

If you are concerned, there are computer utilities that will test them.
post #56 of 66
Thread Starter 
Thank you so much for your generous replys and support. This is a great group!

And thanks for backing me up. I do believe that at least in still photography it is the eye and skill of th photographer even more than the camera. Beautiful shots can be taken with a pinhole camera. And I've seen some decent videos taken with the iphone. For me it comes down to what equipment am I going to have the most fun with, enjoy handling and get the best specs for my money. I wouldn't have bought this videocamera if if din't have a wonderful generous husband who knows how much I enjoy shooting, editing videos and submitting them to contests, He bought the nx30 for me as an anniversary and birthday present and also probably because we are going to London in a few days. I am all ready imagining what I can shoot there and the fun it will be.

The sd cards specs have always been a bit confusing to me. Its nice to know that if might not actually make that much difference.

Ungermann thank you for responding in such detail. I know I was mad at yo at first, but I am so glad that I didn't let that bother me especially after hearing from your "forum mates" how knowlegeable you are. Again thanks.

I will let everyone know how things go.

Now for my last bit of questioning. The camera bag dilema. I have purchased I dont know how many camera bags over the years..they in real life always seem to leave something lacking. I think this is going to be an eternal quest.

My ideal bag would:

-be light but durable, rainproof
-allows the nx30 and a canon 20d body with telephoto to 280 lens, a macro lens, a wideangle lens to fit
-have some sort of easy quick draw type access
-easy to carry on the body
-and not look like a camera bag

What have you guys used and liked? Is there such a bag out there?
post #57 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisadone View Post

..... probably because we are going to London in a few days......

Please post some a few clips or maybe even a video of London. I was there for three days in the fall two years ago with a lesser camera and still like what I shot. I finally upgraded my editing equipment and plan to get some of what I took knitted into a video.

Can't help you with the bag. My gear is so small, I can get it all in pouches on my belt. If I had bigger gear, I would look for padded pouches for the various pieces and pack them into a small Eagle Creek carry on luggage bag with wheels. I travel with one that converts from a wheelie to a back back to a hand bag.

Bill

PS: Let's hear it for the DH. On a busy RV forum husbands are refereed to as the "DH" and wives are referred to as the "DW". Nobody ever quite says what the "D" means!
post #58 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

"60P is not everything" Another attempt to belittle higher quality equipment - and especially 108060p - by showing a (Panasonic GH2) video that is attractive that was taken by a professional videographer.
Sorry, the first one is almost all still shots. When the little girl moves, there is strange artifacting. Maybe due to using 24p (is 24p better than 60p?) The second one is quite soft (likely done in 720) and also softer than you can get with an NX30. The GH2 (which I own, with the same lens as used in the first video) is probably the best DSLR-type video camera in terms of resolution and artifacts, but it is still not as good in these dimensions as a mid-level consumer camcorder. Its dynamic range is no better either. It is also bulkier than the NX30 (without the audio attachment), has no good servo zoom capability (there are some lenses with power zoom, but that zoom is not nearly as smooth or controllable). And unless you are willing to lock down the camera and spend a lot of money for a fast lens (which comes with the NX30), it is actually worse in low-light. You have to lockdown because those fast lenses are noisy - changing focus and changing aperture make loud noises making them impossible to use in video unless locked in focus and aperture. These videos, like the others, are almost all set-up shots, not run and gun where fast autofocus, quiet smooth zoom and aperture are key, none of which this type of camera has. The GH2 is pretty good, for set-up shots and the shallower dof can come in handy sometimes.
These continuous interventions that try to belittle camera quality appear, and I say appear, to be sour grapes by people who have cameras that do not do 108060p (not to mention a host of other advancements). You can disprove this conjecture by merely indicating whether you actually have a 108060p camera. They are also rude - the poster just commits $2000 to a really good camcorder, and then someone says it really does not matter, all that matters is technique in shooting and editing. Is this more sour grapes? It looks like it
Does this mean I would prefer a sharp but shaky video of someone's cat to the above posted examples? no. I hope that someone who spends a lot on equipment knows what do do with it to maximize its potential, and the videos show that potential so they are certainly worth sharing. But in the contex of this thread they are less than helpful.
And the fact that someone has a better camera than you do does not mean you cannot take some great videos. You do not have to belittle camera quality.
Oh, and the new GH3, the successor to the GH2, has 108060p capability (but in an even bulkier package).

Wow you and your 60P,i also have 60P cams SD700/FZ200and they are not in the same league as the overall GH2 PQ,the replacement GH3 has 60P but i will not cahange as none of my 3 bd players will play 60P,I use 25P[wrapper] not 24P and have pana cams with 60P,I dont like sony and have to admit am biased against their cams because i always used them but the past three gave up all just out of warrenty,thats just my experience i know.
Who said the poster just commits $2000 to a really good camcorder, and then someone says it really does not matter, all that matters is technique in shooting and editing. Is this more sour grapes? It looks like it
Not me .Vimeo is far from good for comparing video sharpness http://vimeo.com/48768969#at=0 there can be m & a in GH2 footage but rarely do i not see it on TV.
Sour grapes no,we are lucky that the small number of videographers compared to photographers enjoy their kit and i wish the op all the best with his new kit,sorry if it appears i apeared to belittle any kit.
post #59 of 66
Lisadone:

The camera bag needs to be quite big to accomodate everything you mentioned. The NX30 is a small camera but when you mount the external mic it requires some decent space. I have a Lowepro Nova 4 just for the NX30 with the XLR mic attached.

http://www.amazon.com/Lowepro-Nova-AW-Camera--Black/dp/B00013J8G8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352508159&sr=8-1&keywords=lowepro+nova+4

Your question is not easy to answer but you need a big bag or perhaps a backpack like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Tenba-Roadie-HDSLR-Backpack-638-333/dp/B0082N9BZM

or other models like these:

http://www.tenba.com/Products/Roadie-II-HDSLR-Video-Backpack.aspx.

Enjoy London.
post #60 of 66
It is strange these heated arguments among us small band of videographers,99% of people i see out are just taking stills.Regarding sharpness ,when i watch videos taken by my HV30 and a long gone FX7 they hold up well,My FZ150 i had or current FZ200 cant live with my GH2 but can still take good video as long as clips are not mixed.Well they could software can do anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK7uoV5OtfU
Obviously sharness difference in resolution show up far more on a good HD tv than youtube on a pc.
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