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Have you ever dealt with "dodgy" dealers?

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
A few months back I decided to buy ADA TEQ Trinnov. I contacted my dealer Mr. David Vranicar who sold me my ADA Rhapsody in the past. The attention and the service was great...until the things went wrong. ADA (Audio Design Associates) had troubles with components and the Unit production was delayed. Three months after I put the order I requested a refund of my money. This is when Mr. David Vranicar also known as AVDESIGNER and Mr. INTEGRATION (member of this Forum and Gold AVS Member?) started to play.
First he refunded half of the money and seemed to disappear from the radar when I put a remark in the ADA TEQ Trinnov thread (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1366849/datasat-rs20i-beta-test-and-comparison-with-ada-rhapsody-trinnov-teq-12/930).

He came back offering if I removed the thread and he would refund the rest of the money. I removed the thread but he sent only part of the money. In the whole transaction I lost over $ 1,000. This kind if behaviour is very dangerous since some of these expensive gears are custom made and needs to be pre-ordered.

How do you know who is honest dealer? I love the ADA products but this kind of incidents damage their reputation as well since they are associated with the same dealer. The top end ADA product the Cinema Reference costs $ 40,000. Can you imagine to pay this kind of money and to get nothing?

I think it is a good idea to have some thread where to share our bad experience with dealers and to have something like a list which dealers to avoid. My intention is purely to prevent other people from dealing with dishonest dealers, experience which still makes me sick in the guts...We try to help this people but they act like hungry dogs who try to keep any bone you throw to them...
post #2 of 19
Have you emailed Richard at ada USA?

I had a problem with my old suite 7.1hd dealer. Basically got taken for£500 for an install that was beyond sub standard. When I tried for a refund I pretty much got laughed at.

So I contacted Richard and he was most upset this had happened and really wanted to know whom I was dealing with. But I got it all sorted by getting the disti in uk, Genesis, to talk with the dealer and shortly after I got issued a refund.... And the dealer in question got given further training so the same debacle doesn't happen again to anyone else.
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 
Unfortunately Richard was involved since David Vranicar told me that ADA in the face of Richard did not want to refund my money. I have spoken to Richard and I understand Richard spoke personally to David Vranicar but he refused to refund the rest of the money. Richard offered further assistence but the offer was unacceptable to me since I already bought Trinnov MC8...

I really feel sorry for all honest dealers since when something goes wrong you will suspect in foul play everyone in the future. That is why I hope more people will come forward and put some thoughts so we can "sepeate the wheat from the shaft"...
post #4 of 19
Well that is strange. I guess that David is a big box shifter for Ada?

I think we are lucky in the uk in that we have Genesis to help out if need be. Those guys really are top notch. But means nothing for your situation.

In which case, I think you are doing the right thing, name and shame. Warn others and hopefully Richard, who does read these threads will have to respond.

Have you tried going thru small claims courts?

The only way I can see them legally being able to keep the money is if you have some receipt for it that describes it as a non refundable deposit.

Did you pay by card, can your take it up with your bank / credit agency?
post #5 of 19
Thread Starter 
The money was paid by PayPal but it covers you only for 2 months from the day of purchase. In this situation due to the delay in the production of the Unit the period was extended and the PayPal refused to extend the cover.
I have made a few complaints to Consumer Protection Agencies and I am considering putting a claim to the Small Claims Tribunal but the points is that when you deal with some person like David Vranicar, it spoils the whole experience.I went with a pure intention to buy an expensive product and to enjoy it..not to deal with crooks. If we cannot creat such a list of dodgy dealers, I hope ADA and other companies will have one. We, the consumers must be sure that when we spend our money, will not deal with crooks since the reputaion and inevitably the sales of the Company will be affected.
.
post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 
I just received an email from the Department of Public Prosecution in Florida. David Vranicar has refused to cooperate with the Authority. So I have no other option but to seek compensation in the Small Claim Court. I hope that this time he will cooperate and will have the dignity to regund the stollen money.

Once again, Guys, if you want to avoid my problems, stay away from dealing with this crook dealer, David Vranicar.
post #7 of 19
I have intentionally avoided all of the name calling and personal bashing. The situation as described above is an interesting account of the events. I will simply respond by saying it is completely unethical and immoral to ask others to expend time and resources and expect NOT to be compensated for their time and talent because you find a better deal. Likewise previewing equipment at a local showroom and then attempting to order it from overseas to avoid taxes and duties and also is unfair to the dealer whose time you waste. I personally and professionally have never had an issue with any client that could not be resolved. It is interesting that after examining the facts in this case PayPal is fighting Visa for the remainder of the charges. I have met and dealt with many people here on the forums and they all tend to be reasonable people. In this case I can see we will have to agree to disagree.
post #8 of 19
Guess i will not even consider buying anything from ADA in the future.
post #9 of 19
Thread Starter 
"I have intentionally avoided all of the name calling and personal bashing. The situation as described above is an interesting account of the events. I will simply respond by saying it is completely unethical and immoral to ask others to expend time and resources and expect NOT to be compensated for their time and talent because you find a better deal. Likewise previewing equipment at a local showroom and then attempting to order it from overseas to avoid taxes and duties and also is unfair to the dealer whose time you waste. I personally and professionally have never had an issue with any client that could not be resolved. It is interesting that after examining the facts in this case PayPal is fighting Visa for the remainder of the charges. I have met and dealt with many people here on the forums and they all tend to be reasonable people. In this case I can see we will have to agree to disagree."


If you needed some fees paid for the service, this should be agreed in advance. I specifically asked no fees to be deducted since I was already ready to cover the PaPal fees and charges and additional Bank charges. In your emails you mentioned that you and Richard had to "eat" some of the fees. Why did you put all fees on me? Did you make a sell? I understand that the supplier pays commission, not the customer..
Besides have you ever provided me with receipt of the refunded money? You said I am sending you $ 5,000 and in the acount was ...$ 4,400, after that I am transfering $ 4,700 and in my acount...$ 4,300.
I bought different product because of the time delay of the delivery....over 4 months, not because of price. I ended up paying more for different product but at least was delivered in timely manner...as promised.

I am still surpriced that you have eyes to speak openly about the case. Simple sorry and refund should be sufficient.... but it is Christmas time...Have peace on your soul..
post #10 of 19
If the situation is as stated just file in small claims court. In Florida it is especially easy and will cost you less than $70.
It will also not take up too much of your time. Make sure you have ALL your paperwork, receipts, and communication with the seller.

He WILL NOT be able to claim a "service fee" if it was not agreed to previously. I have had a similar situation in the past regarding home labor and it was easy as could be in small claims court.

If you know you are in the right and you have all of your documentation it's better not to let it go...because the same situation will end up happening to someone else down the line. It's a very simple process and it's not time consuming. Since you are located in Florida (I am assuming) and he accepted the payment which originated from you in Florida(thereby agreeing to do business in Florida) you can absolutely file.

Good luck
post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post

If you needed some fees paid for the service, this should be agreed in advance. I specifically asked no fees to be deducted since I was already ready to cover the PaPal fees and charges and additional Bank charges. In your emails you mentioned that you and Richard had to "eat" some of the fees. Why did you put all fees on me? Did you make a sell? I understand that the supplier pays commission, not the customer..
Besides have you ever provided me with receipt of the refunded money? You said I am sending you $ 5,000 and in the acount was ...$ 4,400, after that I am transfering $ 4,700 and in my acount...$ 4,300.
I bought different product because of the time delay of the delivery....over 4 months, not because of price. I ended up paying more for different product but at least was delivered in timely manner...as promised.
I am still surpriced that you have eyes to speak openly about the case. Simple sorry and refund should be sufficient.... but it is Christmas time...Have peace on your soul..

At this point, there is only a few hundred dollars on the line and I would not deal with the aggrevation of having to go to small claims court. If indeed you acted in good faith and intended to buy from him, but decided to take your business elsewhere after waiting for a few months (there is no reason to question this, since you put the money down), and he has the nerve to call your behaviour "unethical", clearly he does not get it and never will.

I would just spread the word on a few more audio/HT website, file a complaint with the better business bureau and a few other consumer protection sites and move on. Alternatively, in the spirit of Xmas you could let it go altoghter. Already, anyone reading this forum will avoid him, costing him far more than the lousy few hundred dollars he got out of you.
post #12 of 19
Thread Starter 
Thank you edorr and NavySeal,

I did made complaint to the Florida's Consumer protection Agency but after few months, they dropped the case due to "Uncooperation" from David Vranicar.

The truth of the matter is that David lost a sell and he wanted to get his commission. He could not get anything from ADA since the sell did not go through and turned against me. I was an easy prey since he had my money. Looking through our communications, I realise that I was lucky to lose only $ 1,000...
Presently (as David said) the claim is at the PayPal/ Master Card and if they fail to resolve the problem, next stop is the Small Claim Court. I just hope PayPal will sort out the problem since they will ask David to pay interest on the money he owns me....I hope this will be good lesson for him!

I am sure that there are a lot of honest dealers up there but David Vranicar is not one of them and I hope people will learn from my experience.

Merry Christmas and thank you for all your help and support.
post #13 of 19
Again I will only respond to factual errors since this is public and my name is being dragged through the mud. I was painfully clear that the order was non cancellable before money was sent, furthermore there was a an entire month that I was asked to research a competing unit, which I did and offered that competing unit at a quicker time frame and higher price. I then explained that the unit would take longer than we originally anticipated. At that point I offered a full refund and was told to go ahead and order it. There is a sufficient paper trail to substantiate these facts. I was going to hold fast to the stated and understood special order item no refund policy, however when ADA began getting bashed online. I decided to refund the majority of the money withholding the PayPal fees I was charged and something for all my time, which is not free. I welcome the opportunity for small claims court so this issue can be dispensed with legally instead of being litigated by attempted intimidation via keyboard. This is a matter of principle not money. People who do not have consideration for people time should not prosper for their theft of time. I am not a sales guy I am a consultant, I get paid for my time. Try meeting with your doctor and getting his opinion or diagnosis for free or better yet take his diagnosis to a different doctor who will work a little cheaper. I could care less about the money, I want to make sure people who waste other peoples time pay for it.
post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post

Again I will only respond to factual errors since this is public and my name is being dragged through the mud. I was painfully clear that the order was non cancellable before money was sent, furthermore there was a an entire month that I was asked to research a competing unit, which I did and offered that competing unit at a quicker time frame and higher price. I then explained that the unit would take longer than we originally anticipated. At that point I offered a full refund and was told to go ahead and order it. There is a sufficient paper trail to substantiate these facts. I was going to hold fast to the stated and understood special order item no refund policy, however when ADA began getting bashed online. I decided to refund the majority of the money withholding the PayPal fees I was charged and something for all my time, which is not free. I welcome the opportunity for small claims court so this issue can be dispensed with legally instead of being litigated by attempted intimidation via keyboard. This is a matter of principle not money. People who do not have consideration for people time should not prosper for their theft of time. I am not a sales guy I am a consultant, I get paid for my time. Try meeting with your doctor and getting his opinion or diagnosis for free or better yet take his diagnosis to a different doctor who will work a little cheaper. I could care less about the money, I want to make sure people who waste other peoples time pay for it.

"Non refund" has nothing to do with this, beacuse the goods were never delivered in the first place. By refunding part of the money, you have already agreed to cancelling the non cancallable special order in its entirety. You have no formal agreement allowing you to charge for you time. What you did is pre sales consultanting, which never gets paid for unless specifically contractually agreed. So your going to stand in front of a judge saying you think it is "fair" the client should pay for your time, but you have no signed agreement. My money is on Kamenoff - both legally and ethically. If you happen to get in front of Judge Judie, tell us when the episode airs.
post #15 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post

Again I will only respond to factual errors since this is public and my name is being dragged through the mud. I was painfully clear that the order was non cancellable before money was sent, furthermore there was a an entire month that I was asked to research a competing unit, which I did and offered that competing unit at a quicker time frame and higher price. I then explained that the unit would take longer than we originally anticipated. At that point I offered a full refund and was told to go ahead and order it. There is a sufficient paper trail to substantiate these facts. I was going to hold fast to the stated and understood special order item no refund policy, however when ADA began getting bashed online. I decided to refund the majority of the money withholding the PayPal fees I was charged and something for all my time, which is not free. I welcome the opportunity for small claims court so this issue can be dispensed with legally instead of being litigated by attempted intimidation via keyboard. This is a matter of principle not money. People who do not have consideration for people time should not prosper for their theft of time. I am not a sales guy I am a consultant, I get paid for my time. Try meeting with your doctor and getting his opinion or diagnosis for free or better yet take his diagnosis to a different doctor who will work a little cheaper. I could care less about the money, I want to make sure people who waste other peoples time pay for it.

David, you mentioned back in April that if you pay for the Unit, you will own it....but the Unit was never delivered. I am happy that you mentioned that you keep a record of our e-mail correspondence. I'll extract and quot some of your emails. Guys, kindly note that for the first time refund was mentioned in July, 3 months after the order was put:

12 July 2012: “I have been with ADA for 15 years and they have never taken this long to deliver on a product…..if they cannot be ready to ship by the end of July, I will expect a refund.”


18 July 2012: “The closest I can get to a guaranteed delivery time is the end of August. I agree with you that this has been an excessive amount of time to wait. They did tell me it would take a large amount of time, but I never envisioned this long. I will demand a refund from them….”

24 July 2012: “I am advising that we request a refund and then I can refund your money.”

And David, yes, there is a refund policy....An email from Mr. Richard Stoeger VP of ADA stated:
23 August 2012: “ Your option to cancel was available to you at any time…We have never forced our fine products on any of our dealers nor their customers.”

You just made fuss of my order since you realised that you will not make a sell and will lose your commission. Furthermore, I have personally emphasized to Mr. D. Vranicar that I am not happy to him to deduct any fees. In the beginning he embraced the idea to share the transaction fees with Mr. R. Stoerger. Again, these are extracts from his emails:
02 August 2012 “I wanted to send you some money but they have already deducted their fees” (PayPal)
03 August 2012 “I think the paypal charges were around 400 and I have to eat some with ADA. I have not received a check yet but I want to resolve this as quickly as possible. I just did not want to assume you would eat the paypal charges”

Yes, David did mention (late August) that he will deduct some fees for his time but he was repeatedly told that if he needed to be paid for his time , he should ask ADA that did not deliver the product. I have never agreed to pay David a commission. To turn against his customers who pay for his living and to accuse them that they waste his time, I am sure will also deter many people away.

David did take advantage of my trust in him. Yes, David, if you go to different doctors you pay but you know in advance how much ill cost you and you have the option not to go. I had no option since you had my money and you started to deduct as much as you wanted. Not to mention, without my permission. Since we deal with expensive products, I don't know how future customers can trust you....and David, it is all about the money since if you had principles you would have refunded the money long time ago...
post #16 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post

Yes, David did mention (late August) that he will deduct some fees for his time but he was repeatedly told that if he needed to be paid for his time , he should ask ADA that did not deliver the product. I have never agreed to pay David a commission. To turn against his customers who pay for his living and to accuse them that they waste his time, I am sure will also deter many people away.

The whole "I'm a consultant who needs to get paid for his time" (after failure to deliver the sold product for 4 months) attitude is beyond laughable. Of course, he could reasonably make the case he lost the sale because of ADA's failure to deliver, so ADA wasted his time. This is between him an ADA and to leave you holding the bag for this is ridiculous.

Sound to me like a guy with the mindset of a used car salesman, who has deluded himself into thinking he is a McKinsey consultant. For the record, consultants waste many, many unbilled mandays writing proposals, in many cases for companies that have no intention of buying anything, but who just need competitive bids for leverage in price negotiations.
Edited by edorr - 1/5/13 at 10:59am
post #17 of 19
David's position and attitude and decision to publicly display them will cost him much more than his imagined entitlements. Best of luck on your legal pursuit btw.
post #18 of 19
Goodluck Im intrested in seeing how this turns out.
post #19 of 19
One thing about small claims court or magistrates court, whatever it is called in your state. If you in, they will issue a judgement in your favor. But you typically have to have the paperwork EXACTLY just right, or it can get tossed. However the hardest part is trying to collect on the judgement itself. I've filed 4 small claims cases in 2 states over the years. 2 in Florida (uninsured motorist - I had $5K deductible), 3 in Georgia (tenants & house painter), won judgements in all five. I pretty much assume that I'll never collect anyways but when people purposely stiff you or driving without insurance, even though legally required, it feels good trying to get even??? However was only able to collect in 2 instances, one in Florida, the other in Georgia. The upside is, it seems most states allow interest to accrue at 1% a month or 12% a year, which in todays market is a pretty good rate of return, if you ever collect. But then again junk bonds are easier. I joked one time that my small claims judgement was the best in my portfolio,was able to get a lien filed against their house so sooner or later, they would have to deal with it. 4 years later they did when they tried to sell the house.
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