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LightSpace CMS Now Supports Lumagen + eeColor 3D-LUT 4 All - Page 7

post #181 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Can you post some calman report comparison screens about that?

Of course C6 / iD3 is not reading well lower than 10% Step Luminance or any color of a display with deep blacks like your Panasonic or my KURO. I see the greenish shade from miles...

I think I have posted the RGB pre chart for both the K10 and the C6/I1pro.

And yes you are right about the lower step 15% for me using the C6/I1pro compared to the K10., Of-course I only have my 65VT50 to calibrate.

ss

Can you locate that screens ? 15% is the lower step i also trust iD3 measuring my KURO.
post #182 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for. Anyway, my D3 was sold and the only colorimers I have are a K10 and a C5. One could probably use an unprofiled K10 as both LS & CM have the Klein display tables.

I am looking at how these two meters (K10 and C6/1!pro) read a RGB balance.

Are you saying you profile your K10-A using CM, if so to what??

And the same goes for LS.

ss
post #183 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for. Anyway, my D3 was sold and the only colorimers I have are a K10 and a C5. One could probably use an unprofiled K10 as both LS & CM have the Klein display tables.

I am looking at how these two meters (K10 and C6/1!pro) read a RGB balance.

Are you saying you profile your K10-A using CM, if so to what??

And the same goes for LS.

ss

I don't have Klein, but I'm seeing the inaccurance ot chromaticity reading of my iD3/C6 at low levels too. Send me the link or your RGB comparison of these meters please.
post #184 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Can you locate that screens ? 15% is the lower step i also trust iD3 measuring my KURO.

Actually you probably have them, anyway when I did a clean install for the new SSD I blew everything out.
However all that info is on the drive I replaced, so Its just a matter of getting around to installing it into my optical port.

ss
post #185 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I am looking at how these two meters (K10 and C6/1!pro) read a RGB balance.

Are you saying you profile your K10-A using CM, if so to what??

And the same goes for LS.

ss

post #186 of 710
Thanks Buzz, that is the same as I use.

ss
post #187 of 710
Thread Starter 
All the 3D LUTs we use in all CFE equipped units we sell are created in LightSpace CMS.
We do use CalMAN for QC reports, but all the 3D LUTs in our monitors are from LightSpace.


Bram Desmet, CEO, FSI


I'm doing the same here, like FSI, the same way....

I'm performing 17-Point Cube Calibrations using LightSpace and I'm verifing the results of LightSpace and with the help of the nice designed graphs of CalMAN I own also.

I used the latest LightSpace build that had some improvements at shadow details and improved color engine using my KURO with eeColor as a LUT Holding Device.

You know, each software handles the meters differently / different settings / color matching methods / so reporting one display with Chromapure / CalMAN 4 / CalMAN 5 / LightSpace will give slight different reports.

The thing is complicated more if you use 2 meters (colorimeter+spectro) and running meter profilings from one software to another you will have differencies there also.

Think also that if you use an External Pattern Generator as a source for your calibrations, this don't make you accurate since the singal from Blu-Ray -> LUT Holder -> Display based to each setup settings it will change the signal that will come from the screen finally...

This is the reason I never using any External Pattern Generator to Display any Color Patch for any Cube Calibration I have performed.

The solution (If you are a LightSpace User Only right now) to this is my Upcoming Blu-Ray Disk.....

that syncs perfectly with LightSpace's Pattern Request Order, so only an initial synced mouse click is required to perfrorm 10-Point Cube or 17-Point Cube Profiling...

These 2 Cube sizes I selected to include to this disk, since 10-Point Cube is the mimimum recommended from professional world.

The Following CalMAN Screens coming after a 17-Point Profiling (4.913 Colors) and 4.913 Meter Reads Required.

Before Starting the LightSpace Profining I used my i1PRO2 to profile my iD3, i used intergration time of 1.39 sec to match and handle better my display's frequency or 72Hz while the singal is 24fps.

(I have post the math tha X-Rite has provide to better match the panel Hz to the iD3 at one of my older post)

After Measurements finished i used some LightSpace Filters to fix some probe error that id3 can't read well at 5% of Luminance of Blu/Red/Green etc. and then I gave a little gamma boost to my 5-10%-Steps to increase the shadow details that are lost at some bright scenes @ Plasma's.

You can easily check this to your Plasma by displaying a Brightness Patterns with 16-25 level boxes and notice that 17 is flashing the same time while displaying a Mixed Pattern for setting the Brightness+Contrast you see only 19-20 flashing only.....

I have some good flashing patterns to my disk, take a preview here:
Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk - Color Reproduction 2 Menu

But sometimes setting your Brightness to see flashing the 17 box or your brightness pattern, you also see flashing the 15-16 also.

LightSpace has a Videoscale filter that removes all levels below 16 wink.gif

So after that quick tweaking I used the eeColor Application to load the LUT to my eeColor.

When it's completed I loaded that LUT in active memory of eeColor and I used CalMAN to make a new profile my i1PRO2 to my iD3 meter.

Then I measured using that New Meter Profiling from CalMAN the LUT that is generaTED from LightSpace for verification reason and becasue I like the colorful graphs.




This Report dE number are similar with all my previous reports i have runned using older versions of LightSpace but I noticed an improvement in Skin tones immediately after checking reference and known to me material i'm always watching.

It was an improvement at textures of dark objects/clothes etc. These things are not visible at charts, that's why any other professional solution from THX/TruLight don't have any dE report, here we have stucked with dE numbers but this addiction and comparison of which has the lower dE has better image quality is childish.....

From Forums or from Screen Captures or from Charts that have low dE numbers that our eyes can't recognise the difference Nobody can understand if a display is performing better using one solution or another.

To experience the difference I TRIED LightSpace for 1 Whole Month before deciding to buy it, with Real Meters, not virtual....

So I used my Actually Blu-Ray Player for a Pattern Generator and the Same BluRay had Patterns for CalMAN Verification Also based to the RGB Triplets that CalMAN Requests for each pattern.
This is the most accurate thing! To calibrate the whole setup only for blu-ray playback from your current blu-ray player, BTW I'm not interested for performing one Large Cube to play playstation or watch satelite or cable tv etc...

Calibrating with External Pattern Generator makes you accurate comparing that current pattern generator, but at the end of the day, your expensive pattern generator don't have a Blu-Ray Drive to playback you movies also.......

If you compare 5 different patterns generators willl never bit-matched......

And of source 5 different Bluray players or 2 some models with different firmware will give you also different results....

Don't forget the measurements of the REFERENCE LEVEL OPPO vs. Quantum Data 780 here

**EDIT**

I forgot to say the CalMAN Report came 10 hours after profiling from LightSpace ended.
I used Pioneer White Rolling Bar for 30 minutes for warmup and then I took the measurements.
Edited by ConnecTEDDD - 4/29/13 at 3:30am
post #188 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Can you please name some studios they have installed CalMAN Studio and are performing Large Cube's Calibrations to their monitors?

Technicolor
post #189 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Can you please name some studios they have installed CalMAN Studio and are performing Large Cube's Calibrations to their monitors?

Technicolor

Technicolor 'Film Division' are global LightSpace users, among with other 300-400 Studios you can see here.

Any other Studios that are using CalMAN?
post #190 of 710
fantastic results again, Ted !

so u did setup brand new meter profiles when validating results in CM ?

- M
post #191 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Any other Studios that are using CalMAN?

Really you want to play this game in the LS thread?
post #192 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Technicolor 'Film Division' are global LightSpace users, among with other 300-400 Studios you can see here.

Any other Studios that are using CalMAN?

No they are all switching to CalMAN.

The press release is in legal now. I'm sure they'll continue to use lightspace products for their look LUTs. It's not that lightspace doesn't add value to the industry.
Edited by sotti - 4/28/13 at 2:59pm
post #193 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

Joel, we should never let perfect be the enemy of the very good. For some displays the reduction of light output is such that going to 255 ain't happening. You may want to design in some intermediate destinations along the way. The farher to right we go, the less common those value are in a scene and arguably the less value they have. I like the idea of this being a configuarble choice. I recall you saying one could choose 100 percent white or 109 percent for max. If using a tool like Stacey's new one it is pretty clear you can avoid any color clipping to say 245 or 250 why should the software NOT be configurable to work within the 16-245 or 16-250 spac?

I guess what I am saying why must we throw the baby out with the bathwater. If the object it to optimize a display to be the best it can be, do we really need to be religious about the approach..

You're absolutely right, and that is why there is a checkbox right on the autocal dialog to limit the calibration to 16-235 if that's what you want. We also just wired in the white level target to the gamut AutoCal so if you need to force the luminance level up, we'll do that too.

Our software is all about giving you the options to do the job the way you want to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Oh, So ALL Video Processors of Consumer Market (eeColor - All Lumagen Radiance Series - DVDO) Give control over VIDEO LEVELS ONLY, Thank you.

and... you still telling that was not a CalMAN's bug but you fixed it for DVDO users.

The lumagen does interpolate it's cube data up to 109%, it doesn't just return to native. The EE only has an issue with the data between 252-255, so while that's problematic for full range PC work, it's not really a huge problem for specular highlights that headroom is used for in video.

But we want our colorchecker to be as accessible as possible, so for accupel 3000/4000, DVDO Duo users, or any other pattern generator that only supports RGB% 0-100, we want our colorchecker data sets to fit with that functionality for broadest compatibility. Even if that means clipping out some data I'd rather preserve, like gtgray said I'd rather not throw the baby out with the bath water.
post #194 of 710
Very nice work, Ted.

I know you are compiling as much data as you can get your hands on, that's why I am sending you my reports on my large LUT's using CM5P.

Looking at your report using LS I see you seem to have the same problem I did with my 9G Kuro, that blue tint. However when I had my Kuro there was no LS, CM then to calibrate a large cube, so maybe your LS large profile is helping tame the blue tint.

ss
post #195 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

fantastic results again, Ted !

so u did setup brand new meter profiles when validating results in CM ?

- M

Yes, I runned a new meter profilling with CalMAN after the LUT from LightSpace was already Loaded and was Active at my eeColor.
post #196 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Very nice work, Ted.

I know you are compiling as much data as you can get your hands on, that's why I am sending you my reports on my large LUT's using CM5P.

Looking at your report using LS I see you seem to have the same problem I did with my 9G Kuro, that blue tint. However when I had my Kuro there was no LS, CM then to calibrate a large cube, so maybe your LS large profile is helping tame the blue tint.

ss

Thanks SS,

When you will do your next CalMAN Cube, read the 21-P Grayscale + 5-P Saturation using your initial meter profiling and then run a new meter profiling using that Active LUT memory of eeColor, Then run again 21-P Grayscale and 5-P Saturtations using the new profliing.... This is your actual report....Send the Data's to compare them. wink.gif or use the comparison workflow i have send you.
post #197 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Thanks SS,

When you will do your next CalMAN Cube, read the 21-P Grayscale + 5-P Saturation using your initial meter profiling and then run a new meter profiling using that Active LUT memory of eeColor, Then run again 21-P Grayscale and 5-P Saturtations using the new profliing.... This is your actual report....Send the Data's to compare them. wink.gif or use the comparison workflow i have send you.

Hi Ted,

I don't think in my case meter profiling will make any difference, like the profile Buzz shows its a Klein/Calman profile. So there are no other meters involved in profiling, therefore the profile will always be the same.
However you should also ask Buzz about this, just to confirm my thinking.

Anyway I am probably going to run a 21 point grayscale on my latest 3375 profile LUT. I am interested in this LUT because I had made a few minor changes in how I setup.

ss

btw, I will get you what you asked for later when I am on my laptop.
post #198 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Oh, So ALL Video Processors of Consumer Market (eeColor - All Lumagen Radiance Series - DVDO) Give control over VIDEO LEVELS ONLY, Thank you.

and... you still telling that was not a CalMAN's bug but you fixed it for DVDO users.

The lumagen does interpolate it's cube data up to 109%, it doesn't just return to native. The EE only has an issue with the data between 252-255, so while that's problematic for full range PC work, it's not really a huge problem for specular highlights that headroom is used for in video.

But with any Current Lumagen Radiance there's no possible any control of any 236-255 RGB 100.5%-108.7%.... BTW There is no Data in 255 in Video Range... It's not used...

98% of the Total Cube Calibrations Home Users own Lumagen Radiance Products, so all of them can't calibrate 236-254 using real color point there.

This shows that Lumagen is not cares so much for this headroom like myself.

I have done a lot of testing using my VideoEQ PRO ad the past to control the 9-Step Above White but the difference was only at patterns, generally there was a 20% Loss in Total Display Output (Reducing the Contrast/Pop) to get Gamma 2.20 correct from 100-108.7%

Here are some data about this of a excel calculator i was using back in 2011 for my calibrations.

post #199 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Any other Studios that are using CalMAN?

Really you want to play this game in the LS thread?

It's just a simple answer... to give 10-20 names.... I asked about naming soem studios because you/joel are talking so much about the feedback that us coming fro post-production houses etc...

From where is coming this feedback? Where it's been installed? You have to be proud of this, not to hide it.

This thread has a lot of general informations, do you want to ask the same question at a CalMAN's Topic? I have not problem.
post #200 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Thanks SS,

When you will do your next CalMAN Cube, read the 21-P Grayscale + 5-P Saturation using your initial meter profiling and then run a new meter profiling using that Active LUT memory of eeColor, Then run again 21-P Grayscale and 5-P Saturtations using the new profliing.... This is your actual report....Send the Data's to compare them. wink.gif or use the comparison workflow i have send you.

Hi Ted,

I don't think in my case meter profiling will make any difference, like the profile Buzz shows its a Klein/Calman profile. So there are no other meters involved in profiling, therefore the profile will always be the same.
However you should also ask Buzz about this, just to confirm my thinking.

Anyway I am probably going to run a 21 point grayscale on my latest 3375 profile LUT. I am interested in this LUT because I had made a few minor changes in how I setup.

ss

btw, I will get you what you asked for later when I am on my laptop.

I thought you was using i1PRO to profile the Klein, that's why I asked you about this.
post #201 of 710
Thread Starter 
For those who are searching for a Hi-End Colorimeter there is a new Deal came out today for LightSpace + Klein K-10A Package.

I don't know the pricing but you can contact Steve for that.

This deal has announced here.

*** Once you are LightSpace User, you get lifetime software updates for free, without any extra annual fees for that.
You can access other Meters like Discus, Minolta's CS-200, CA210 CA-310, Photo Research PR-655/670, JETI etc.. also. wink.gif
Edited by ConnecTEDDD - 5/6/13 at 2:03pm
post #202 of 710
Im surprised you dont have A K-10A or JETI 1211 in your personal kit TED seeing how much your involved in calibration smile.gif
post #203 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Im surprised you dont have A K-10A or JETI 1211 in your personal kit TED seeing how much your involved in calibration smile.gif

You are right, I have complete all the other Steps to Improve my Calibrations by Using my Disk as a Pattern Generator from my Blu-Ray Player, using LightSpace the most advanced software available for Large Cubes, now the last step for a further improvement is to buy better Meters. wink.gif
post #204 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

For those who are searching for a Hi-End Colorimeter there is a new Deal came out today for LightSpace + Klein K-10A Package.

I don't know the pricing but you can contact Steve for that.

This deal has announced here.

*** Once you are LightSpace User, you get lifetime software updates for free, without any extra annual fees for that.
You can access other Meters like Discus, Minolta's CS-200, CA210 CA-310, Photo Research PR-655/670, JETI etc.. also. wink.gif

Yes, imo that's the setup I would think the "pro" should have or the crazy's like me.

The LS/K10-A combo for me makes doing a large Profile (calibration) for my VT50 very easy. Mater of fact my guess is because of how spot on the K10-A is I don't even use any of the filters that are in LS. imo by not using filters is kinda like setting your Blu Ray player on source direct therefore not altering the signal from the Blu Ray disc.

However for now I turn on the low light handler and set normal readings at 0.5 sec delay. Doing that does slow down the time it takes to complete a 17^3 profile to about <3 hours.

ss
Edited by sillysally - 5/8/13 at 1:12am
post #205 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

For those who are searching for a Hi-End Colorimeter there is a new Deal came out today for LightSpace + Klein K-10A Package.

I don't know the pricing but you can contact Steve for that.

This deal has announced here.

*** Once you are LightSpace User, you get lifetime software updates for free, without any extra annual fees for that.
You can access other Meters like Discus, Minolta's CS-200, CA210 CA-310, Photo Research PR-655/670, JETI etc.. also. wink.gif

Yes, imo that's the setup I would think the "pro" should have or the crazy's like me.

The LS/K10-A combo for me makes doing a large Profile (calibration) for my VT50 very easy. Mater of fact my guess is because of how spot on the K10-A is I don't even use any of the filters that are in LS. imo by not using filters is kinda like setting your Blu Ray player on source direct therefore not altering the signal from the Blu Ray disc.

However for now I turn on the low light handler and set normal readings at 0.5 sec delay. Doing that does slow down the time it takes to complete a 17^3 profile to about 3+ hours.

ss

The DIP Mode Chapter of displaying 3 sec each pattern will work great with Klein, to use you Blu-Ray Player as a Source for your 17-Point Cube Profiling. I'm working to finish the disk these days... wink.gif
post #206 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

The DIP Mode Chapter of displaying 3 sec each pattern will work great with Klein, to use you Blu-Ray Player as a Source for your 17-Point Cube Profiling. I'm working to finish the disk these days... wink.gif

Yes Ted, your Disc should be interesting.

What I am finding is the delay for the K10-A when used on a VT50 Plasma probably is better off being set at 0.5 sec and Low light handler should be turn on.However that is using loop back mode.
Also I find as Steve suggest using a small (about 2%) window non APL and placing the K10 about 11" off screen works very well. Of-course when placing any meter off screen you want to make sure the meter is centered and the area the meter is reading is about 1/4 .inch from any edge (or less) of the pattern window.
Anyway for me setting these times and meter placement, I get a great profile and there is no need to use any filters.

btw, I edited my last post to read <3 hours for a 17^3 profile.smile.gif

ss
post #207 of 710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Mater of fact my guess is because of how spot on the K10-A is I don't even use any of the filters that are in LS. imo by not using filters is kinda like setting your Blu Ray player on source direct therefore not altering the signal from the Blu Ray disc.

We use Filters with i1D3 to fix the probe errors, the inaccurancy of iD3 to read some Low Luminance (5%) Color Patches Chromaticity Correct for Display's with Deep Blacks, or to prevent of fixing the 'Blue Tint' Backlight LED/LCD Problem of Low Luminance Levels for some displays, than can't be fixed with a LUT because of the Display Design.
post #208 of 710
I started using LS last Friday, I had to rush CM quick Checker and my meter only got about 8 min of plunged in time, because the sun was starting to come up.eek.gif
I am using a 65VT50, Mini 3D as a triplet generator, and eecolor box as the processor and storage for this 17^3 LUT cube, and LIghtSpace home calibration software.
Also This LUT profile was done with out using any filters or touch-up.

.

ss
Edited by sillysally - 5/9/13 at 4:41am
post #209 of 710
Great result, especially the 3D gamut !
Just the grayscale dE of >1 in a few levels could be more perfect ... but doing that, you wouldn't perceive the difference on your 65VT50.
Have fun with watching movies ...smile.gif
post #210 of 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harry* View Post

Great result, especially the 3D gamut !
Just the grayscale dE of >1 in a few levels could be more perfect ... but doing that, you wouldn't perceive the difference on your 65VT50.
Have fun with watching movies ...smile.gif

Thanks.

Yes I agree, the 21 point grayscale could be better. The thing with the GS is that my meter didn't have a chance to warm up and the GS was the first check I ran using CM QC. After the GS the rest of the test/reports are pretty darn good so that tells me that there is a chance my meter hadn't stabilized for the GS run..

Also the Calibration I used for QC was done about 36 hours before I ran QC.

ss
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