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post #1471 of 3342
Thanks Andy_Steb. It looks like the price for the 310 has gone up a bit on ebay since the cheapest I see is $75.

And yes, I've got one M1015 that I flashed, so I know my motherboard can do it at least. I bought one of those 24 bay servers from TAMS in the thread here, so I needed another one!
post #1472 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Flexraid F is really the way to go IMO. You can use any drives you want, you can add or remove drives with data on them and not lose data, and your drives are always readable in other windows systems. It's got great performance that saturates your gigabit LAN for both read and writes- and it's affordable and easy to set up.
For non-critical data I agree with you 100%.
post #1473 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

For non-critical data I agree with you 100%.

Unless you run a business of that server, there isn't going to be that critical data... smile.gif

Also, i'm not sure FlexRAID couldn't protect even critical data. For business data you will want an enterprise-y setup, of course, but if you consider some of your "Home" data very critical, FlexRAID can still do a great job - and you should always backup off-site for critical stuff.
You could argue that with a good off-site backup, you don't need RAID, but its just a matter of convenience for me, it allows quickly replacing the disk and rebuilding the contents without getting the data back from the offsite location.
post #1474 of 3342
Thread Starter 
This^

Exactly how I feel. I'm waiting a HDD being shipped but when it arrives I plan to finally go to dual parity drives. I never bothered because 99% of my stuff is not ultra critical.

Only my pictures are, and I have double copies of those in addition to being on my flexraid server
post #1475 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

Unless you run a business of that server, there isn't going to be that critical data... smile.gif

Most people consider their pictures and home movies critical.
post #1476 of 3342
The important point is that FlexRAID isn't any worse or any better at protecting your data than other RAID systems. It just cannot replace a backup, no RAID can.
FlexRAID even has data-rot detection based on file checksums, if you scheduled a full Validate or Verify, at least.
post #1477 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

For non-critical data I agree with you 100%.

It has nothing to do with F (or snapshot RAID) vs T (or realtime RAID including hardware RAID) whether data are critical or non-criitical. Snapshot RAID is suitable for static data such as ripped movies. Realtime RAID is good for dynamic data.

Redundancy in the form of RAID is good for both critical data and non-critical data if the redundancy meets your requirement. For critical data, you will want backup in addition to RAID.
post #1478 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

The important point is that FlexRAID isn't any worse or any better at protecting your data than other RAID systems.

That's debatable. I would highly disagree. I'll leave it at that.
post #1479 of 3342
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

Most people consider their pictures and home movies critical.

But you choose duplicity or off site storage for that. Crashplan, or external HDD in addition to your your server pool (which has parity)

Just in case...

In my case it's just unfeasible to back up 30TB, so I choose to only back up 1TB of the critical stuff. The other 34TB can go kick rocks.
It's unlikely I will suffer massive simultaneous failures on my flexraid array to create a data loss scenario- but if it happens I guess I'll have to live with it. That's what I choose.

It's the individuals responsibility to choose how exposed they want to be, or how protected they want to be.

If it was ultra critical you could do simultaneous off site backs up, dual externals, and multiple parity drives. Just seems excessive waste to me.

If I lose some movies, I lose some movies....
post #1480 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

But you choose duplicity or off site storage for that. Crashplan, or external HDD in addition to your your server pool (which has parity)

Just in case...

In my case it's just unfeasible to back up 30TB, so I choose to only back up 1TB of the critical stuff. The other 34TB can go kick rocks.
It's unlikely I will suffer massive simultaneous failures on my flexraid array to create a data loss scenario- but if it happens I guess I'll have to live with it. That's what I choose.

It's the individuals responsibility to choose how exposed they want to be, or how protected they want to be.

If it was ultra critical you could do simultaneous off site backs up, dual externals, and multiple parity drives. Just seems excessive waste to me.

If I lose some movies, I lose some movies....

Right. But there is a big difference between "If I lose some movies (BD rips)" and "If I lose some movies (Kids first steps)". Since the capacity requirement are most likely very different it makes sense to have something like a RAID1 solution that is two 3 or 4TB HDDs for your home movies and pictures and a FlexRAID pool for your media. Then just backup that RAID1 array with something like CrashPlan. That's the way my server is currently setup. Critical data goes on the RAID1 or RAID10 array depending on how frequently it's accessed and BD/DVD/CD rips go on the FlexRAID pool. The RAID1 and RAID10 arrays get backed up via CrashPlan.
post #1481 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

..Dell...

If they were the same price I probably would choose the IBM, ....

Can you please elaborate? I am trying to decide which ones to get.

 

Thanks!

 

____

Axel

post #1482 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

This^

Exactly how I feel. I'm waiting a HDD being shipped but when it arrives I plan to finally go to dual parity drives. I never bothered because 99% of my stuff is not ultra critical.

Only my pictures are, and I have double copies of those in addition to being on my flexraid server

Adding a PPU requires a full parity rebuild doesn't it? Will take a while...
That's why I built with two parity drive from start smile.gif
post #1483 of 3342
I prefer parity over snapshot for a few reasons. One is not better than the other. They each have their place.

1) I like that my data is available, all my data, even if a drive is down.
2) I like that my data is real-time protected.
3) and this is only for hardware vs software parity, hardware is faster writes and has a bbu available.

Points 1 & 2 obviously can be either hardware or software.

I know someone said that raid is no excuse for not backing up and I agree with you but how many people take what's on their camera and immediately back it up offsite or to disc? Not many. So what happens if your drive fails, you know, the drive that your data is being put onto before your snapshot is scheduled?

Again I'm not in anyway cutting down software or snapshot. I'm just saying that each has its purpose. Some here say that the media we back up is no big deal. I beg to differ. I compress my videos. Do you k ow how much lost time that is if I were to lose a drive or even a couple movies before snapshot time took place?
post #1484 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

Do you k ow how much lost time that is if I were to lose a drive or even a couple movies before snapshot time took place?
If you run a new snapshot once a day, at most a day worth of data? tongue.gif

Anyhow, like i mentioned before in this thread, my primary reason not to use hardware raid or even ZFS or other real-time raid* solutions is that they simply don't allow mixing drive sizes, and that would just be too inconvenient.
Plus, being able to simply add parity on top of a drive full of data is just so handy.

At one point i had a lot of 2TB drives in a real hardware raid 5 (8 drives, iirc). At some point i wanted to expand, so i installed 4 3TB drives in parallel, and setup a second raid volume on those discs.
The first problem now was that i hate having multiple "drives" to load data off, but some software solution was found sooner or later, and i had one drive again. But then one of the 2TB discs died, and i figured, why not buy bigger discs as replacement. And then the headache started, i tried to think of some smart migration scheme to slowly get all the data over to the array with 3TB discs, and add new drives there, slowly removing discs from the 2TB array ... but long story short, trying to do something like this is just a terrible headache.

With hardware raid, you can build something up, and even keep adding drives, but migrating to a bigger drive size requires doing it with all drives at once, or simply building a second array in parallel (which eats into enclosure space and SATA port usage)

Anyway, in the end i learned about FlexRAID while looking for better solutions to my problem, and i never looked back.
Today i have 9 3TB discs and 4 of the old 2TB discs left, and my array holds 90% media and 10% scheduled backups that arrive there from my other PCs. Pretty static data, so snapshot works OK for me. Losing the last 24 hours of data would only happen if a drive failed before the update runs, and specifically, the drive which got new data failed - any other drives can fail without loss. RAID is always about compromise, and this is mine.

When i replace the last 2TB discs, i might pick 4TB discs in the future, and i can immediately use the new space, even if i only buy a few discs (only limitation, i need to update both parity drives to 4TB first)

*PS:
FlexRAID has real-time raid support with mixed drive sizes, both in its RAID-F mode, and TransparentRAID mode (the new one in beta), but it does lower the write performance quite a bit, so i decided to use snapshot instead.
Maybe the new FlexRAID TransparentRAID will improve over time (its still in beta), and will be worth using eventually - i'll certainly follow it closely.
Edited by Nevcairiel - 9/6/13 at 2:35am
post #1485 of 3342
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

Adding a PPU requires a full parity rebuild doesn't it? Will take a while...
That's why I built with two parity drive from start smile.gif

In full retrospect I have done many full verifications and validations that are the exact same process so I couldn't have avoided what your saying ...

It might take a while bit mine runs overnight and I don't notice it
post #1486 of 3342
Quick question:

For 12TB usable in a RAID 5 setup for a media server:

Five 3TB Seagates or seven 2TB Toshibas?

All are 7200K

I have been waiting on some 3TB Seagates to go on super sale, but saw NewEgg's Shell Shocker today on their 2TB drives.

Obviously I would need a motherboard with 8 SATA connections, and the 2TB drives pretty much fill those up. I would need the 3TB drives to be $112 each to break even on cost, but the 3TB drives would have increased future capacity without having to replace drives (I would just add more).

Thoughts?
post #1487 of 3342
Thread Starter 
Skip RAID 5 and just run them as JBOD.

Those Seagates are very fast; you don't need any hardware RAID.

You can pool them together with many free programs. Or- you can go all the way and add parity too with a flexraid purchase.

Keep the drives as just bunch of HDDs on your sata ports - you will be happier and have less headaches. No reason to RAID them at all

Also 3TB is preferred if possible
post #1488 of 3342
Crazy how recommendations went from software RAID10 with "cloud" backups, to software RAID5 with cloud backups, to software RAID5, to now no RAID at all. smile.gif

Since these are just movie dumps and not home movies or photos, I could see that advantage of no RAID.

I guess I will just pick up some 3TB Seagates when they are on sale and just buy "1 less" than I was thinking with the RAID5 scenario. That will save a few bucks too.


Still debating if it is worth trying to pick up some components from a Micro Center when I am traveling in just over a week and deal with taking an extra suitcase/duffle to bring the stuff home in, or if I should just stick with NewEgg and the like. Just not enough experience with Micro Center to know if their prices are better "enough" to justify the hassle since I would have to get stuff through TSA and on to a plane (with a layover). I know that Micro Center will match NewEgg, but that is a break even on cost. Are they cheaper ever? Again, no Micro Center here, so I don't know how "good" their prices are or aren't...
post #1489 of 3342
Hi Mfusick

I was wondering if you have played with flexraid traid. The reason I’m asking is that I’m having slow performance when writing to the pool/drives and would like to know if you are seeing/expiring the same thing. My writing speed is 25-43 MB/s. On a setup with 3 X 3tb Seagate 7200.12 drives. I haven’t tried any of the performance optimizations, but I still think its a little bit low from the get go.

Thx in advance
post #1490 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Quick question:

For 12TB usable in a RAID 5 setup for a media server:

Five 3TB Seagates or seven 2TB Toshibas?

All are 7200K

I have been waiting on some 3TB Seagates to go on super sale, but saw NewEgg's Shell Shocker today on their 2TB drives.

Obviously I would need a motherboard with 8 SATA connections, and the 2TB drives pretty much fill those up. I would need the 3TB drives to be $112 each to break even on cost, but the 3TB drives would have increased future capacity without having to replace drives (I would just add more).

Thoughts?

There have been various 3TB on sale every day this week for $109 or less found on TechBargains. This one is available till 9/9 for $109 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?nm_mc=AFC-TechBargains&cm_mmc=AFC-TechBargains-_-NA-_-NA-_-NA&Item=N82E16822149408
post #1491 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

There have been various 3TB on sale every day this week for $109 or less found on TechBargains. This one is available till 9/9 for $109 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?nm_mc=AFC-TechBargains&cm_mmc=AFC-TechBargains-_-NA-_-NA-_-NA&Item=N82E16822149408

I click their link, it redirects me to NewEgg (to the same link that you have above) but it shows $129, not $109.... Those also get some crummy reviews based off of failure rates...

EDIT:

DOH. I see that it pops up the site like above, but the original TechBargains site changes to show other options AND the very important coupon code. Sweet.

Still need to see how well that model stacks up against higher rated Seagates...
Edited by nickbuol - 9/6/13 at 8:44am
post #1492 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

I click their link, it redirects me to NewEgg (to the same link that you have above) but it shows $129, not $109.... Those also get some crummy reviews based off of failure rates...

The promo code takes 20 dollars off. It's in big neon green letters right below the product name: EMCXLXT23
Every 3TB drive gets crummy reviews based on failure rates.
post #1493 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

..Dell...

If they were the same price I probably would choose the IBM, ....

Can you please elaborate? I am trying to decide which ones to get.

 

Thanks!

 

____

Axel

 

Wow, this thread is moving fast and burried my post already ...  humble bump....

_____

Axel

post #1494 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

The promo code takes 20 dollars off. It's in big neon green letters right below the product name: EMCXLXT23
Every 3TB drive gets crummy reviews based on failure rates.

That isn't what I see. I get a green button for "SEE DEAL" and then clicking it pops a new tab right to NewEgg. I have to go back to the TechBargains site to see that there was a coupon code.


I see this


click on the link, and then come back to the TechBargain site so that I can see this.



But that isn't what concerns me, your other comment:
Quote:
Every 3TB drive gets crummy reviews based on failure rates.
THAT disturbs me... Is it futile to get 3TB drives then?
post #1495 of 3342
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Crazy how recommendations went from software RAID10 with "cloud" backups, to software RAID5 with cloud backups, to software RAID5, to now no RAID at all. smile.gif

Since these are just movie dumps and not home movies or photos, I could see that advantage of no RAID.

I guess I will just pick up some 3TB Seagates when they are on sale and just buy "1 less" than I was thinking with the RAID5 scenario. That will save a few bucks too.


Still debating if it is worth trying to pick up some components from a Micro Center when I am traveling in just over a week and deal with taking an extra suitcase/duffle to bring the stuff home in, or if I should just stick with NewEgg and the like. Just not enough experience with Micro Center to know if their prices are better "enough" to justify the hassle since I would have to get stuff through TSA and on to a plane (with a layover). I know that Micro Center will match NewEgg, but that is a break even on cost. Are they cheaper ever? Again, no Micro Center here, so I don't know how "good" their prices are or aren't...


With only a couple hard drives there is less value in parity, or flexraid, or even hardware raid. The value of software raid with parity increases as you increase the amount of hard drives.

Example:

You buy 3 hardrives that are 3TB each. $99 each. $300 total spent. If you spend another $69 for Flexraid program that's almost as much as if you just bought another hard drive. ($30 difference between $69 for Flexraid and $99 for a 4th HDD)

With no raid- you can do a 1:1 mirror with 4 drives of 3TB each (you get 6TB usable space). For $30 less you can do Flexraid parity with 2 data drives and 1 parity drive. So there is value in flexraid- but it's not huge value IMO.


Now,

Let's expand the situation- you buy 4 more 3TB drives so now you have 8 total 3TB hard drives. Now you can run 1 parity and 7 data drives. 7x3=21TB of space - all backed up with a single $99 HDD and a $69 Flexraid license. To do 1:1 in this situation you would need 6 more hard drives ($600) so there is a lot more value here.


There is no clear right or wrong time to jump into flexraid- but clearly it becomes more attractive as your media and storage and number of hard drives increases.

If you only had 3 hard drives- it's your choice if you want to do it now or not. I tend to think 4 or more hard drives is when software raid makes the most sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Crazy how recommendations went from software RAID10 with "cloud" backups, to software RAID5 with cloud backups, to software RAID5, to now no RAID at all. smile.gif

Since these are just movie dumps and not home movies or photos, I could see that advantage of no RAID.

I guess I will just pick up some 3TB Seagates when they are on sale and just buy "1 less" than I was thinking with the RAID5 scenario. That will save a few bucks too.


Still debating if it is worth trying to pick up some components from a Micro Center when I am traveling in just over a week and deal with taking an extra suitcase/duffle to bring the stuff home in, or if I should just stick with NewEgg and the like. Just not enough experience with Micro Center to know if their prices are better "enough" to justify the hassle since I would have to get stuff through TSA and on to a plane (with a layover). I know that Micro Center will match NewEgg, but that is a break even on cost. Are they cheaper ever? Again, no Micro Center here, so I don't know how "good" their prices are or aren't...

Also-

I think you are confusing RAID's. Flexraid is FLEXRAID. We call it software RAID. Whenever you say "RAID" without saying SOFTWARE RAID we automatically assume you mean hard ware RAID. It gets confusing.

For this reason I call FLEXRAID .....flexraid. I might specifically call it software raid- but I will never just call it RAID.

No one ever recommended any RAID (at least I did not) to you at any point. RAID 1,2,3,4,5,10etc... All a bad idea.

I think just a bunch of discs (JBOD) plugged into your motherboard is fine for your situation and for any media server. There is no need to set up any "RAID" at all. If you choose software RAID you do that on the software level by employing something like FLEXRAID. I would just call that installing FLEXRAID.

I know there is some specifics we can argue and some semantics we can discuss but it's easier to just say it this way to you^

FLEXRAID = FLEXRAID ( A common type of parity based software RAID that can include pooling of drives) I am not going to call it "RAID" ever- so by this definition yes no one is recommending any "RAID" to you.


FOR CLARITY:

Step 1: Find a good deal on some good hard drives and buy them
Step 2: Just plug those HDD's into your motherboard SATA ports. (JBOD) [ no need to set up any RAID at all ]
Step 3: When you are ready [perhaps now ?] purchase FLEXRAID for $69 and pool your drives together into one drive and protect all your data drives [DRU drives] by assigning a parity back up/recovery drive [PRU drive]
Step 4: When you determine you need additional protection against more than 1 single simultanous HDD failure add additional parity drives [PRU drives] to protect against 2 or 3 drives failing at the same time.


With Flexraid and 1 parity drive you are protected against any data drive failing. I currently have 35TB and 14 HDD's- any one of them can die and I can recover it.

If 2 drives die at the same exact time (before I recover the first failure) I am SOL. (I am adding a second parity drive this weekend, waiting for a newegg order to arrive today biggrin.gif )

Usually you are ok with 1 parity drive for 8 data drives, and beyond this you should consider 2 parity drives- but these matters are a moving target based on your individual preferences. I am using 14 drives tongue.gif but I am not neccessarily happy about it. I just did not want add a second parity drive- I want replace and upgrade my current WD GREEN 3TB with 2 4TB drives so I can now use 4TB data drives.
post #1496 of 3342
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post

Wow, this thread is moving fast and burried my post already ...  humble bump....
_____
Axel


I like the IBM because I believe (for no particular reason) it's a good option, good performance. Just a general gut feeling- but I like IBM products, and I have flashed the card several times. I understand how to do it- and the IBM installs by just plugging it in without any drivers needed. It's good performance.

In comparison- I can't say the Dell is any worse but my personal feeling is I like the name IBM more than the name DELL tongue.gif Also- Andy Steb flashed both of my DELL cards so I don't fully know how to do it with those. So if I had a choice, based on where I am coming from I would go with the IBM.

Putting the tape on the Dell was creative (Nice job Andy) but not necessarily attractive. Matters like the flashing process, the booting process, the install process- are all just more familiar to me with the IBM. I flashed 4 of them (I built a couple servers for friends and other AVS members) so far now and I know what to expect so my comfort is higher with the IBM.

But it's not higher enough to spend a lot more $$$ biggrin.gif

So all things being equal I would personally buy the IBM- but my reasons are not necessarily other peoples reasons. It could be totally different. You will have to make the call.

My advice would be buy the one you get a good deal on. Both cards are good and both cards should work well. I have used both and both will be great IMO.
post #1497 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

... and the IBM installs by just plugging it in without any drivers needed. ...

 

 

Thanks for your reply, Mfusick.

 

Now, does the Dell after being flashed behave differently than the IBM and/or needs drivers?

 

____

Axel

post #1498 of 3342
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhb97ba View Post

Hi Mfusick

I was wondering if you have played with flexraid traid. The reason I’m asking is that I’m having slow performance when writing to the pool/drives and would like to know if you are seeing/expiring the same thing. My writing speed is 25-43 MB/s. On a setup with 3 X 3tb Seagate 7200.12 drives. I haven’t tried any of the performance optimizations, but I still think its a little bit low from the get go.

Thx in advance

I messed with the beta quickly...

T raid is for people that want real time raid with increased performance. If this is what you want- then you should choose T raid over F raid (flexraid)

I prefer snapshot. Flexraid-F is my choice- it has very high performance, very easy to set up. My data is not dynamic. It might get added or deleted, but almost never changes. I do not have a constantly changing data base that must be up to data protected at all times.
I am ok with losing anything I might have added to my server since the last snapshot update (less than 24 hours if you do once a day like me)

You might actually want snapshot instead. Why Real time ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post


Thanks for your reply, Mfusick.

Now, does the Dell after being flashed behave differently than the IBM and/or needs drivers?

____
Axel

No the Dell should work well for you. I did not install any drivers, WHS2011 auto did that. Performance seems ok so far- I will test more thoroughly when I have time.
post #1499 of 3342
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

That isn't what I see. I get a green button for "SEE DEAL" and then clicking it pops a new tab right to NewEgg. I have to go back to the TechBargains site to see that there was a coupon code.


But that isn't what concerns me, your other comment:
THAT disturbs me... Is it futile to get 3TB drives then?

Lol. 4TB drives and 2TB drives are just as crummy.


It's a case where only the failure havers write a review. How many times have you written a review for a HDD you bought? The percentage is much higher when people are pissed they got a lemon, than the majority that get a perfect working drive.

I would not worry about it.

I have read mountains of data on HDD reliability and almost all HDD's are about the same it seems. I can say with certainty that I have 25+ Seagate 3TB's and never had a single one fail yet. Yet- lots of people bash on Seagate like it sucks (some from old days opinions not necessarily accurate today)

Lots of people strongly support WD (even though they have gone down hill recently) too. In comparison 60% of the WD GREEN drives I have purchased have failed and I RMA them back to WD. You never really know.

I just think all HDD's are about the same- buy the one you get a good deal on.

If they are close in price- buy the one you like the most.

For those people that are naturally petrified, or those people that should be on medication for anxiety- you can try to guess with a gut personal feeling which HDD you think is or will be more reliable based on MFG marketing and pay extra for that tongue.gif

There has never been any data showing significant differences across models or brands in reliability. There is even one famous study that showed almost no difference between cheap consumer drives, and expensive enterprise drives in reliability (and the enterprise models run $250+ and have 5 year warranty)

You are equally likely to buy the "crappy" Toshiba 3TB and have it last you 5 years- as you could spend extra on a WD RED or Seagate NAS for the extra warranty and the marketing- and have those fail in the first year or two. There is no way to predict so I trust my wallet more than anything else.
post #1500 of 3342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I messed with the beta quickly...

T raid is for people that want real time raid with increased performance. If this is what you want- then you should choose T raid over F raid (flexraid)

I prefer snapshot. Flexraid-F is my choice- it has very high performance, very easy to set up. My data is not dynamic. It might get added or deleted, but almost never changes. I do not have a constantly changing data base that must be up to data protected at all times.
I am ok with losing anything I might have added to my server since the last snapshot update (less than 24 hours if you do once a day like me)

You might actually want snapshot instead. Why Real time ?

I have no good reason to choosing real time:). The only reason is it is new and all the writing, so I wanted to check it out. My expectation is that I would lose some writing performance but not that much. It is also my understanding that the storage pool is better in t-raid than f-raid, but the t-raid code will be back ported to f-raid in the future.

I believe you are correct that the best choice for me would be raid-f as my data doesn’t change that much. Also I don’t care if I lose data that is less than 24 hours old.

Thanks for your answer
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