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Mfusick's How to build an affordable 30TB Flexraid media server: Information Requested.! - Page 3

post #61 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by acejh1987 View Post

Do you know if the AOC-SAS2LP-MV8 allows programs to read SMART data?
I've had a couple of the cheap cards in the past and I have never been able to access the SMART in programs like HD Tune. Not sure if it is a driver issue or just the card (Disks are setup as JBOD)

I am using AOC-SAS2LP-MV8 everyday under Windows 7 x64 (it's in my main 15 HDD desktop system). Yes, it supports S.M.A.R.T. Three PWM fans for HDDs are controlled via SpeedFan according to the HDD temperatures. Most HDDs are spun down so that the total power consumption of the system is very low, like ~70W.
post #62 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

I am using AOC-SAS2LP-MV8 everyday under Windows 7 x64 (it's in my main 15 HDD desktop system). Yes, it supports S.M.A.R.T. Three PWM fans for HDDs are controlled via SpeedFan according to the HDD temperatures. Most HDDs are spun down so that the total power consumption of the system is very low, like ~70W.

Thanks for the info smile.gif
What are you using to spin the drives down, Windows 7 Power Management? or something else?
post #63 of 3344
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Perhaps
- Supermicro AOC-SAS2LP-MV8 8-port SAS/SATA 6.0Gb/s PCI Express 2.0 x8 card (Marvell 88SE9480 chip), ~$100
is the most straightforward, cheap pure HBA (i.e. non-RAID) card. I have been using it in several systems and it's pretty good. Two of this card + onboard 8 SATA = 24 SATA ports in NORCO RPC-4224 case.
As others mentioned, LSISAS2008 chip-based cards include:
- IBM ServeRAID M1015 8-port SAS/SATA 6.0Gb/s RAID 0,1, 10 and JBOD PCI Express 2.0 x8 card, ~$80 at ebay
- LSI MegaRAID SAS 9240-8i (= M1015 + RAID 5, 50), > $200
- LSI SAS 9211-8i, >$200
The last card is a pure HBA (hence no "MegaRAID") and is recommended for your purpose. IBM M1015 can be turned into 9211-8i by flashing the firmware (OK, I have no hands-on experience with this card smile.gif).

I'm thinking the first option super micro card makes sense for about same cost as flashing an IBM card from eBay.

For 20$ more about I'd enjoy the easier set up of just dropping it in and it's good to go without flashing. I'm prob not going to run hardware raid.

Agree ?
post #64 of 3344
Thread Starter 
Also would I have to flash the IBM ? Couldn't I just use it without flashing it?

What is the advantage in flashing it ?
post #65 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Also would I have to flash the IBM ? Couldn't I just use it without flashing it?
What is the advantage in flashing it ?

You really need to flash it otherwise it's a raid card (albeit limited to raid 1 and 0). If your leaning towards the Supermicro you should probably just go with your gut for the reasons you mentioned.
post #66 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Also would I have to flash the IBM ? Couldn't I just use it without flashing it?
What is the advantage in flashing it ?

Here is some info on the M1015

http://www.servethehome.com/ibm-m1015-part-1-started-lsi-92208i/
post #67 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I'm thinking the first option super micro card makes sense for about same cost as flashing an IBM card from eBay.
For 20$ more about I'd enjoy the easier set up of just dropping it in and it's good to go without flashing. I'm prob not going to run hardware raid.
Agree ?

The AOC-SAS2LP-MV8 is pretty famous for dropping drives. You might have to flash it also.
post #68 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_Steb View Post

The AOC-SAS2LP-MV8 is pretty famous for dropping drives.

Famous? Google. Only one actual user (Hudson187) at Hard|Forum reported such a problem (this post), and dropping drives could happen to any controller.

Look at these gorgeous(?) systems (more pictures here).



Each consists of 3 x AOC-SAS2LP-MV8 inside Norco 4224. It's close to Hudson187's system, but reported to be working fine. I have no idea why.

BTW no firmware update is required.
Edited by renethx - 11/13/12 at 9:48am
post #69 of 3344
Thread Starter 
Wow looks sweet!!!

I"ll take that as strong reccomendation
post #70 of 3344
If you are thinking of trying ESXi in the mix, you would probably want the flashed IBM M1015 instead of the AOC, as the IBM M1015 will be recognized by ESXi 5.1.
post #71 of 3344
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceD View Post

If you are thinking of trying ESXi in the mix, you would probably want the flashed IBM M1015 instead of the AOC, as the IBM M1015 will be recognized by ESXi 5.1.

I'm not sure what that is so I assume I'm not throwing it into the mix.

I'm much more PC literate than server literate.

This is technically my first server. I guess second since in upgrading it.
post #72 of 3344
ESXi is the virtual system hypervisor (free) from VMware that allows you to run multiple Virtual machines/servers on your single hardware server, including WHS, unraid, Win7, Win8, etc.
post #73 of 3344
If you want to play around with an easy ZFS distro then NAS4Free is a good one. No command-line knowledge needed as its all web-GUI based.

And as for expanding pools it's pretty easy. Just add a new vdev and add it to the pool. Dead easy in fact. Pool reduction is not an option but when do you actually reduce the size of your pool? I don't see many real-world cases to reduce your storage size... but the ZFS team listened and pool removal is in the works.

An SSD is not required but if you want improved performance the option is there. Options aren't a bad thing.
post #74 of 3344
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

If you want to play around with an easy ZFS distro then NAS4Free is a good one. No command-line knowledge needed as its all web-GUI based.
And as for expanding pools it's pretty easy. Just add a new vdev and add it to the pool. Dead easy in fact. Pool reduction is not an option but when do you actually reduce the size of your pool? I don't see many real-world cases to reduce your storage size... but the ZFS team listened and pool removal is in the works.
An SSD is not required but if you want improved performance the option is there. Options aren't a bad thing.

Is this directed at me?
post #75 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

And as for expanding pools it's pretty easy. Just add a new vdev and add it to the pool.

It might be easy, but it is terribly inefficient. If you are using dual-parity, every vdev you add wastes another two HDDs.

ZFS is a terrible choice for an expanding media storage server. Snapshot RAID is the way to go.
post #76 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

It might be easy, but it is terribly inefficient. If you are using dual-parity, every vdev you add wastes another two HDDs.
ZFS is a terrible choice for an expanding media storage server. Snapshot RAID is the way to go.

Just added 7 x 2TB drives from my old server to my SnapRAID server (which already had 11 x 3TB drives - 2 used for parity). Shut down server, add drives, power up server, assign drives, add reference to drives in SnapRAID config file and away you go.
post #77 of 3344
Thread Starter 
Should I be concerned with head parking in a green drive vs a red drive ?

I noticed newegg has RED 3TB drives for 149 which is about the same cost as a normal or green drive

Thoughts ?

Oh yeah link:


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236344&nm_mc=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r&cm_mmc=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r-_-Hard+Drives-_-Western+Digital-_-22236344
post #78 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Is this directed at me?

Sorry, no. My iPhone doesn't allow me to hit the quote button.
post #79 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

It might be easy, but it is terribly inefficient. If you are using dual-parity, every vdev you add wastes another two HDDs.
ZFS is a terrible choice for an expanding media storage server. Snapshot RAID is the way to go.

1. Speed
2. Security
3. Efficiency

You can only pick two.
post #80 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdkhang View Post

Just added 7 x 2TB drives from my old server to my SnapRAID server (which already had 11 x 3TB drives - 2 used for parity). Shut down server, add drives, power up server, assign drives, add reference to drives in SnapRAID config file and away you go.

Do you use pooling? If so, what do you use with SnapRAID?
post #81 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Should I be concerned with head parking in a green drive vs a red drive ?
I noticed newegg has RED 3TB drives for 149 which is about the same cost as a normal or green drive
Thoughts ?

For low-use servers, no, head parking isn't that big of a deal. Head-parking is a very big deal if your server sees a lot of use (multiple people streaming all the time like in my house) or if you want to use hardware or software RAID.
post #82 of 3344
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Sorry, no. My iPhone doesn't allow me to hit the quote button.

Lol. Which phone you got?

Mine does (using now).
post #83 of 3344
Thread Starter 
I
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

For low-use servers, no, head parking isn't that big of a deal. Head-parking is a very big deal if your server sees a lot of use (multiple people streaming all the time like in my house) or if you want to use hardware or software RAID.

I use software raid (flex raid)

And it transcodes plex often for my parents and brother.

I have multiple pc in my house networked to it.

Half my drives are green but in shying away from more the more and more I read about it.
post #84 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Half my drives are green but in shying away from more the more and more I read about it.

Complete baloney. Would love to see some data on this myth or theory.
post #85 of 3344
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Complete baloney. Would love to see some data on this myth or theory.


It's not that you cants use a green drive in a server - I do. It just seems I've RMA too many recently. Two 2tb and 3tb in last six months. This is over 50% of my green drives.

In contrast I've had no issues with my non green drives. None if my green drives are old and all are under mfg warranty still.

So I did some digging and. It appears green drives are a poor choice (WD) if you have constant use or run software raid like Flexraid.

If you have one of Western Digital's Caviar Green HDDs then the drives Intellipark technology parks the drives heads and turn off unnecessary electronics after 8 seconds of inactivity to help save power. But the only problem with this is that some software and OS's are incompatible with the Intellipark feature causing endless head parking movement as the HDD continuously goes in/out of idle mode. This abnormal behavior creates stress on the HDD and that could lead to a variety of problems.

I believe I'm victim of such. for HTPC or desktop sure they are great but I think I'm going with a non WD green for my future server drives.

If the RMA drives hold up for me a year or so perhaps I'll change my tune. I always liked WD and greens so in not against them.
post #86 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

It's not that you cants use a green drive in a server - I do. It just seems I've RMA too many recently. Two 2tb and 3tb in last six months. This is over 50% of my green drives.
In contrast I've had no issues with my non green drives. None if my green drives are old and all are under mfg warranty still.
So I did some digging and. It appears green drives are a poor choice (WD) if you have constant use or run software raid like Flexraid.
If you have one of Western Digital's Caviar Green HDDs then the drives Intellipark technology parks the drives heads and turn off unnecessary electronics after 8 seconds of inactivity to help save power. But the only problem with this is that some software and OS's are incompatible with the Intellipark feature causing endless head parking movement as the HDD continuously goes in/out of idle mode. This abnormal behavior creates stress on the HDD and that could lead to a variety of problems.
I believe I'm victim of such. for HTPC or desktop sure they are great but I think I'm going with a non WD green for my future server drives.
If the RMA drives hold up for me a year or so perhaps I'll change my tune. I always liked WD and greens so in not against them.

And I have used well over a hundred green drives at this point including WD (about 10 personally) in HTPCs, PCs and software raid servers. Only 2 hard drive failures that I know of (none personally).

I am fully aware of the "head parking" theory. Please post your "digging" data and not tech speak that has been perpetuated over and over and over on this website and others. Its time that AV SCIENCE (or AVS as we all call it) becomes... well... a little more scientific about things that we just perpetuate over and over.

There are also reports that enterprise drives are no better than non-enterprise drives. And that 7200 RPM drives have a higher return and failure rate than non-7200 RPM drives.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/10/flash_fails_more_than_hdd/

post #87 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Lol. Which phone you got?
Mine does (using now).

iPhone 4 (original, not "S") I've tried in Safari and Chrome.

But... hey... how 'bout that ZFS? (just to semi-stay on topic.)

biggrin.gif
post #88 of 3344
Also, there is also data that temperature has nothing to do with hard drive failure rates as long as you are within the range of operation (i.e. lower temperatures do not equate to lower failure rates) taken from Google's 100,000 drive data.

I like data. Please post some MFusick.
post #89 of 3344
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Complete baloney. Would love to see some data on this myth or theory.

You can disable the head parking if your in a constant use environment btw...

I'm on my iPhone in Hawaii so I'm a big limited but here is a link if you want to read more:

http://www.ngohq.com/news/19805-critical-design-flaw-found-in-wd-caviar-green-hdds.html

I believe in a supported software environment this is a non issue. But in 24/7 servers even WD recommends a non green drive per customer service. The email WD support sent me with my most recent RMA inquiry said that greens are not rated for that many number of load-unload cycles in S.M.A.R.T created in use with WHS2011+ Flexraid 24/7 use. They reccomended black or red drives as alternative and claimed they had increased reliability in such applications

I'll forward the email from WD if you'd like to review it.

I basically changed my opinion to : green drives will work but black or red will probably work either better or longer.

Unless your certain your set up and application will utilize the intellipark feature without issue the additional question might be much of the promised energy savings forfeited.

If your on par on energy consumption with a non green drive due to not utilizing intellipark head parking - and the cost is the same for green vs non green- and the non green had longer warranty and or better performance the advantage of a green drive is erased.

greens are a great choice in a HTPC or in a supported environment. For 24/7 use I tend to think WD customer supports reccomendation makes sense. I'm assuming lower reliability and of life expectancy is the result of using a green drive where you shouldn't.

Any normal non WD drive doesn't use intellipark so it's probably not an issue with any of those btw...
post #90 of 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

You can disable the head parking if your in a constant use environment btw...
I'm on my iPhone in Hawaii so I'm a big limited but here is a link if you want to read more:
http://www.ngohq.com/news/19805-critical-design-flaw-found-in-wd-caviar-green-hdds.html
I believe in a supported software environment this is a non issue. But in 24/7 servers even WD recommends a non green drive per customer service. The email WD support sent me with my most recent RMA inquiry said that greens are not rated for that many number of load-unload cycles in S.M.A.R.T created in use with WHS2011+ Flexraid 24/7 use. They reccomended black or red drives as alternative and claimed they had increased reliability in such applications
I'll forward the email from WD if you'd like to review it.
I basically changed my opinion to : green drives will work but black or red will probably work either better or longer.
Unless your certain your set up and application will utilize the intellipark feature without issue the additional question might be much of the promised energy savings forfeited.
If your on par on energy consumption with a non green drive due to not utilizing intellipark head parking - and the cost is the same for green vs non green- and the non green had longer warranty and or better performance the advantage of a green drive is erased.
greens are a great choice in a HTPC or in a supported environment. For 24/7 use I tend to think WD customer supports reccomendation makes sense. I'm assuming lower reliability and of life expectancy is the result of using a green drive where you shouldn't.
Any normal non WD drive doesn't use intellipark so it's probably not an issue with any of those btw...

Again, no data --- all opinion.

And they even reference that Black drives are also not immune to "head parking" but that they just do it at a larger interval (12 seconds instead of 8).

http://community.wdc.com/t5/Desktop-Portable-Drives/WD2001FASS-Caviar-Black-2TB-Load-Cycle-Count/td-p/91445

Again, post data. Not opinion.

And of course they will tell you that in an e-mail. They have a new line of Red drives they would like to sell you.
Edited by assassin - 11/14/12 at 8:51pm
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