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Mfusick's How to build an affordable 30TB Flexraid media server: Information Requested.! - Page 30

post #871 of 3346



If I needed the serial number I could always pull out a drive, but I just don't see why I need that info.

 

If you did you could RMA your WD Greens w/o having to pull them out first biggrin.gif

post #872 of 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

If you did you could RMA your WD Greens w/o having to pull them out first biggrin.gif

+1

I also maintain a spreadsheet with various info regarding the HDDs. It's just easier manage when you have things organized.

infohb.jpg
post #873 of 3346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

Quote:
If I needed the serial number I could always pull out a drive, but I just don't see why I need that info.

If you did you could RMA your WD Greens w/o having to pull them out first biggrin.gif

Lol.

True. tongue.gif

But I sit next to my server. I could reach over and grab one out while typing this. I actually have mine hooked up to two of my three monitors on the second inputs... so I can use it while also doing other stuff on my desktop. I have a wireless keyboard and mouse for it. All I need do it switch from input 1 to input 2 on my monitor to use it. I often use my Server to do some encoding or other tasks when my PC I am doing stuff ... double productivity. It's nice to surf or mess around with stuff when I am waiting for staging for an online game on my desktop too.

I know I am different than many. I wish I was as organized as you as well. I just am not.

If drive fails I yank it out (hotswap) and deal with it. I handle things with little pre-planning or organization, and rather just deal head on with things when they arise.

I have done 10+ RMA's and always typed the serial number into the RMA page directly reading off the dead HDD. lol...

Certainly more than 1 way to skin a cat.
post #874 of 3346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpee View Post

Thanks, guys.
My current server has 7 x 4TB 7200rpm, 3 x 4TB 5900rpm, 5 x 3TB 7200rpm, and 20 x 2TB 5400rpm data drives.
I just read a pice of advice from XBMC forum:
"...Green or LP (low power) drives – 5400 or 5900 rpm – are often recommended both for parity and data because they are cooler, quieter, and use less power than higher speed drives.
Improved performance can be seen if both the parity drive and the data drives are of a faster rotational speed: having a 7200 rpm parity drive with all 5400 rpm data drives will not be of benefit. There is a compromise – having a 7200 rpm parity drive and one or more 7200 rpm data drives (the drives that will be used most-used) as well as some 5400 rpm data drives. In this case, writes to the 7200 rpm data drives will be faster, and writes to the 5400 rpm data drives will be slower......"
So, I know Hitachie is more reliable but I'll pick a 7200rpm Seagate drive as my parity drive.
Besides, personally I think WD and Seagate have slightly easier RMA processes than Hitachi and that is important when I ask for a replacement for my parity drive.


Your missing a few critical points:

First,

You need to use a 4TB HDD as your parity- because you employ 4TB drives as data drives. That limits you to a 4TB drive as your parity. I'm assuming the 4TB drives you have are a mix of Seagate variety ? Yes?

Specifically, You have some older 7200rpm models with 5 platters of 800GB, and some newer 5900rpm models with 4 platters of 1TB ??? Yes?

If so- there's not a significant difference in performance- as the 5900rpm models of Seagate 4TB drives are exceptional performers for only a 5900rpm spindle speed. Some of this is due to advances in technology and also the higher platter density.

So for all extensive purposes your 4TB seagates- regardless if 7200RPM or 5900RPM all read/write about 150MB/sec which is more than enough for consideration to be a good parity drive. It's not going to matter which one you pick.... so just pick a 4TB that you have and can easily use. I would not worry much about using a 5900RPM 4TB seagate (new model) as it can hang with the old model (7200rpm). Of the current model Seagates with 1TB platters only the 3TB offers 7200RPM combined with newest technology 1TB platters- which makes it the performance king. Since your using 4TB drives, you can't use a 3TB drive for parity.


Like explained previously- The speed is determined by your slowest HDD. The fact you have 20 2TB Greens (which are very slow in comparison to a Seagate 3TB or 4TB) won't hurt you much. Because they are only 2TB. You can read 2TB of data or write 2TB of data at the speed of a WD GREEN (60MB/sec-80MB/sec when full) in about the same time you can write or read 3TB or 4TB of data on a speedier Seagate or Hitachi. 2TB of data at 80MB sec will take about the same time as 4TB of data at 160MB sec. Considering only the Seagate 3TB 7200rpm with 1TB platters can sustain 160MB/sec or greater speed it's very unlikely that your 4TB drives will read or write 4TB of data in the time it will take your 2TB GREEN drives to do 2TB worth.


Please read and consider my earlier post below:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

THE LONGEST IT SHOULD EVER TAKE TO DO A PARITY CALCULATION INITIALIZE IN FLEXRAID IS 10 HOURS




Side Notes:

I notice that usually the slowest or lowest performance drives are also the smaller ones. This is simply because the older drives are both smaller and slower, and the more modern the drive the larger and higher performance it usually is. So the slowness of your HDD is probably offset by it's smaller capacity. So basically your reading data slower, but you have less data to read so the total impact is not that great.

In my case the generally crappy performance of my nearly full 2TB WD GREEN (think 60MB-75MB/sec) really does not hurt much because I am also doing 3TB (possibly larger) at the same time. The time it takes to do your parity is the longest time it takes to read your slowest/most full HDD. In other words if you are to read all of your hard drives drives then your parity will basically take the longest time it took to read one of the drives.

So I can read 3TB from my Seagate in about 5.4 hours, and I can read 2TB from my WD GREEN in about 8.3 hours. It's only about 3 hours longer because of the WD GREEN 2TB HDD to calculate my parity.


Some Math:
Seagate:
3145728 MB in 3TB divided by average 160MB/sec = 19,660 seconds (327 minutes)

WD 2TB GREEN
2097152 MB in 2TB divided by average of 70MB/sec = 29,959 seconds (499 minutes)


I'm just guessing at the average speeds but it's probably realistic based on reviews and the performance I see daily.


I don't have any 3TB GREEN's for data anymore in my server - But this is the impact it has:

3145728 MB in 3TB divided by average 93MB/sec = 33825 seconds (563 minutes) [9.3 hours]



So I'd guess the longest anyone should ever expect a parity calculation or initialization to take with totally full drives is about 10 hours.
That being based on 3TB of data being read at about average 93MB/sec. (WD GREEN 3TB specs) Seagate 3TB 7200.14 would do it almost twice as fast by comparison. So the general time it takes should be between 5 hours and 10 hours based on 3TB drives that are full. It should take less time with less full or smaller drives.



I was corrected in that the parity speed would also matter after posting this- but assuming your using a 4TB drive that read/writes at 150MB/sec you should not have much issue at all.
post #875 of 3346
Note that you need to read all data at the same time for parity computation, so the 2TB from the "slow" green drives needs to be read at the same time as the data from the faster drives, to they do dictate the speed, at least for the first 2TB of all drives.
Parity works in such a way that it takes a portion of data from all drives, and creates the parity information for that data. To do that, it needs this part of the data from all drives.

So when you have slow 2TB drives and fast 4TB drives, it'll work like this:

- 2TB at 70MB/s ("slow speed"), Green drives are finished now
- 2TB at 150MB/s ("fast speed"), the green drives have no data anymore, so the faster drives can work faster now.

In total, 4TB read from every drive (if that drive has that much data), using above assumed transfer speeds in 499 + 233 minutes = 732 minutes.
post #876 of 3346
Thread Starter 
I stand corrected. I did not think about it like that. Your wisdom is appreciated and your post makes sense to me.

So your slowest drive read or write speed is the speed limit. So basically 60MB/sec divided into 4194304MB [4TB] = 69,905 seconds [1165 minutes] {19.4 hours}

So if your reading at the slowest conservative speed and writing the largest amount of data (only 60MB sec and 4TB) then it could actually take up to 20 hours to calculate a parity initialization. This is actually the worst case scenario, and I was wrong on the 10 hour figure.

Of coarse it's highly likley your read faster than 60MB and at least for a portion of time... so 10 hours is probably more accurate real world. I have done it a bunch of times myself and it's always done in the morning, even when using a 3TB WD green as my parity drive.

Thanks for the insight.
post #877 of 3346
Note that a slow 2TB drive would only slow it down for half the time, for the first 2TB .. of course unless you bundle 2x2TB into a 4TB unit, which may actually have quite some advantages in FlexRAID (ignoring this speed thing, of course)
post #878 of 3346
Thread Starter 
Yup.... I hear ya.

At the end of the day it takes what it's going to take. And faster drives make it faster. Besides that... I am not sure what else it matters. lol.
post #879 of 3346
Hey Mfusick, Have you gotten around to do that server build guide. I am planning on building one and wanted to know if you ever did the guide. i went through the thread and didnt see one, I may have missed it. This is one big ass thread. I plan on going the norco 4224 way. It would be awesome if you could atleast post the hardware you used, so I have some sort of idea where to start.
Thank you.
post #880 of 3346
Thread Starter 
I took all the pictures and collected all the info but never found the time to post it.

I've built a few norco servers since I started this thread. I actually started this thread on my honeymoon in Hawaii while sitting under umbrella relaxing. I remember it started with just some general question about a server rebuild. I actually had a Flexraid server already based on cheap h61 and a g630. I was planning to use that for a HTPC for my brother (and did) so I wanted to update my server.

I built two norco 4220 chassis servers this year since. One with g860 and another with i5 3570. Both 8gb ddr3. Both SSD ( one OCZ another Samsung )

I'm really happy with it.

I'd be happy to help you pick out some hardware, make a plan, set up etc....

What's you intended use? Budget ?
Parts your looking at or already own ?
post #881 of 3346
I am still collecting parts as and when i find good deals for them. This is what i am thinking for now. I need both a server and a HTPC. I have a PCH A300 for now. I am first going to build the server and get everything working now. Ill probably do it in June. And will get around to the htp by august or so. Hopefully by then Haswell will be out in full swing. Just the server for now.
Things I have:
120gb Samsung 830 SSD
2 x IBM m1015. One flashed successfully to IT mode. The other to IT mode with option rom - Need to reflash to IT without option rom.
650W Seasonic X gold modular
4 x SAS 8087 to 8087
16 assorted drives ranging from 750gb to 3tb. Mostly full.

Things ill be getting:
Norco 4224
120mm fanwall
Corsair h100 cooling
1 x Noctua 120mm fan
2 x Arctic f8 80mm fans
2 x reverse breakout cables
16gb ram
i5 - 3570k
Asrock z77 extreme 4

Thats all i have right now. Dont really have a set budget. Keeps changing. And I do purchase from different countries as I am travelling. So some cheap, some expensive.
Will do flexraid on Win 8. Already have win 8 pro for both the server and htpc.

Do I need a intel nic ? And how does a two port nic help ?
Are the above cooling solutions sufficient ?
The m1015s run really hot. Do I need to worry about their cooling.
Do I need a 3.5 to 2.5 converted to use the SSD in the drive bays.
Anything I have overlooked ?

Sorry for rambling.
post #882 of 3346
Thread Starter 
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.aspx?sku=425405

229$ for i7

Not that you need it but if you can get at same price as i5... Hmmmmm

smile.gif

Anyways,

I upgraded the fans to be slower and quieter on my norco and it runs super cool. I wouldn't worry about heat or temps in that case. It's big and lots of air moves through it.

Stock the air coming out the back will blow your hair back (seriously)

I have the IBM without any issues and yes they run hot enough to burn you. Lol. I think that's just how IBM cards are. They seem reliable nonetheless.

Your parts look pretty good.
post #883 of 3346
Thread Starter 
Intel NIC = yes. Dual = no.
post #884 of 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Intel NIC = yes. Dual = no.

Any particular reason that ppl suggest you get a intel nic for a server. And where would the Nic go. PCI-e ?
How is it better than the stock nic ?
post #885 of 3346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by donysious View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Intel NIC = yes. Dual = no.

Any particular reason that ppl suggest you get a intel nic for a server. And where would the Nic go. PCI-e ?
How is it better than the stock nic ?



Yes. Intel NIC is recommended over stock NIC because intel is better. Not needed. It would work fine without but for $25 or so it usually provides a small increase in network speed.

It goes into a spare x1 pci slot.

There is a link earlier in this thread and I bought that specific one
post #886 of 3346
Will Wake-on Lan work though the intel nic?
post #887 of 3346
Thread Starter 
I believe so but I've never tested it.
post #888 of 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by donysious View Post


Any particular reason that ppl suggest you get a intel nic for a server. And where would the Nic go. PCI-e ?
How is it better than the stock nic ?

I bought a $29 HP/Intel dual NIC off eBay and set up 2-port link aggregation using LACP on my HP 6108 switch. Works great, not sure it does much for performance as my HTPCs just have single NICs but it's a cool feature cool.gif

post #889 of 3346
post #890 of 3346
I am going to start my server next month with flexraid. most of my drives now, 14 of them are between 1tb and 2tb. I have one 3tb drive, WD green. Now that i am starting out with flexraid,
Should I start with the 3tb green as parity or
New seagate 4tb 5900 rpm drive as parity ?
Esp since it is available now at newegg for $170.

I know the parity checks and building is bottlenecked by the slowest drive and since mine are mostly green, it wont be affected by a slow parity drive.
post #891 of 3346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarshonarbangla View Post

Mfusick, what did you buy the reverse SAS cable for?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1438027/planning-to-rebuild-my-20tb-whs-flexraid-server-information-requested/480#post_22864062

I need to go from 4 ports ( SATA 2 on z77) to SAS port on server backplane.

This is opposite of a forward that goes from SAS port on IBM to 4 drives.
post #892 of 3346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by donysious View Post

I am going to start my server next month with flexraid. most of my drives now, 14 of them are between 1tb and 2tb. I have one 3tb drive, WD green. Now that i am starting out with flexraid,
Should I start with the 3tb green as parity or
New seagate 4tb 5900 rpm drive as parity ?
Esp since it is available now at newegg for $170.

I know the parity checks and building is bottlenecked by the slowest drive and since mine are mostly green, it wont be affected by a slow parity drive.

If start with the largest drive you have or buy a drive that is as large as you plan to use in the future.

4TB Seagate would get my vote smile.gif


I would has nothing to do with speed, and everything to do with being 4TB. You parity drive must be as large as your largest data drive.

Speed is not important. It doesn't matter. Your parity drive isn't used when reading or writing to and from server. Only you data drive being used determines that. If parity calculation takes a little extra it really doesn't matter.
post #893 of 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I used a reverse to connect four SATA ports on my mobo to the SAS port on my norco ( 4 drives / one row)

Aah. I was confused and thought that you were using the reverse cable with your M1015. Thanks for clearing that up.
post #894 of 3346
Thread Starter 
No I just used sas8087 cables (both ends)

Easy smile.gif.
post #895 of 3346
Thread Starter 
Just reminder:

If you upgrade the fan blade wall to 120mm you need longer SAS cables.

I had to buy longer ones after I did.
post #896 of 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Just reminder:

If you upgrade the fan blade wall to 120mm you need longer SAS cables.

I had to buy longer ones after I did.

Yeah, i know. I looked it up, esp with the M1015 the ports are at the middle of the card and not at the end like the supermicro ones.
I got the monoprice ones. They only sell 1m ones. I was looking for .75m, but 1m will do. Just tie down the excess, i guess.
post #897 of 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I got 1.5 meter and the monoprice ones were too short.

I got them and would sell. I couldn't use. Got longer high point ones on eBay even cheaper

Link for the 1.5m cables please?
post #898 of 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I got 1.5 meter and the monoprice ones were too short.

I got them and would sell. I couldn't use. Got longer high point ones on eBay even cheaper

Are you sure the monoprice ones you used were too short ? I got them and they are 1 m long. Just checked. I dont have the case. But they look mighty long to me.

I used this blog to decide on length.
http://www.sotechdesign.com.au/sas-cable-length-for-norco-4224m1015/

Maybe thats for the 80mm fanwall. But do I need 50 cms more just for the 120mm fanwall. That just seems wrong in my head. Dont the cables just go through the fan wall. Even if you change the position on the fanwall it should still be enough. Right ?

Then ****, I have 4 1m useless cables then.
post #899 of 3346
Thread Starter 
I'm sure. I bought those too. They worked great till I upgraded my fan wall.

Branded norco ones also same story.
post #900 of 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by donysious View Post

Are you sure the monoprice ones you used were too short ? I got them and they are 1 m long. Just checked. I dont have the case. But they look mighty long to me.

75cm cables work fine in my Norco 4224 with 120mm fan wall and M1015 HBAs.
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