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Dolby TrueHD vs. DTS-HD Master Audio - Page 3

post #61 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post

Where do we go from here? I mean they are both already lossless so how do we improve the sound in the future? By adding more channels?
Since the movie industry doesn't seem interested in going from the current data rate (48/24) to a higher sampling rate (96/24), the only place to go from here is more channels and/or object based delivery (like Atmos).
post #62 of 105
Dolby TrueHd and DTS HD Master are lossless but with a flaw....the audio for both is one one soundtrack so that being said. Each format just processes the information into seperate channels in a way they seem best fit.....they dont sound exactly the same as one format will send some info to just maybe front L/R and Center where the other may send that same info into all channels and split and delay to the surround channels....This is just a small example, not exact but the right Idea....the only format that is portrayed the way the artists intended is PCM lossless 5.1 / 7.1 because the channels are all on a sepeate audio track on the disk and your reciever basicly sees this as multichannel imput and does no processing...more or less each channel is in a digital format that is mathmaticly "identical" to analog
post #63 of 105
^^ I'm pretty sure that is just flat out wrong.
post #64 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

^^ I'm pretty sure that is just flat out wrong.

...and a Zip file will move the spreadsheet data from one cell to another.biggrin.gif
post #65 of 105
how do you figure lol
post #66 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscrazy View Post

how do you figure lol

TrueHD and DTS Master are bit for bit identical to the LPCM Master used after decoding.
post #67 of 105
yes that is true that they are bit for bit the same size..but your missing my point....dtshd and dolby truehd are encoded into one audio track on the disk and must run through a processor to decode the audio into separate channels. Dolby TrueHD and DTSHD Master decode the the information slightly differntly....where PCM is not encoded therefore all the audio is on separate tracks and your receiver does not need a processor to decode the information
post #68 of 105
Huh
post #69 of 105
and to add to my last post.....DTS HD Master and Dolby True HD are Encoded Into Completely Differnt File types from one another
post #70 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscrazy View Post

Dolby TrueHd and DTS HD Master are lossless but with a flaw....the audio for both is one one soundtrack so that being said. Each format just processes the information into seperate channels in a way they seem best fit.....they dont sound exactly the same as one format will send some info to just maybe front L/R and Center where the other may send that same info into all channels and split and delay to the surround channels....This is just a small example, not exact but the right Idea....the only format that is portrayed the way the artists intended is PCM lossless 5.1 / 7.1 because the channels are all on a sepeate audio track on the disk and your reciever basicly sees this as multichannel imput and does no processing...more or less each channel is in a digital format that is mathmaticly "identical" to analog
Welcome to AVS Forum. You will find a wealth of information here -- it's a great place to learn and to share knowledge.

Questions may be posed and useful debates can lead to new insights.

However, it is not a good place to float unsupported theories about well known facts, technologies, or science, as you elected to do in your inaugural post. We will be happy to help explain how lossless coding works, if that is unclear. But let's just say for now that Pitviper33's reply is thus far the answer of record for your post: >>I'm pretty sure that is just flat out wrong.<<
post #71 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscrazy View Post

and to add to my last post.....DTS HD Master and Dolby True HD are Encoded Into Completely Differnt File types from one another
Yes, there are different ways to encode lossless audio: TrueHD, DTS HD-MA, FLAC, ALAC. Yet they are all lossless. Strange, but true!
post #72 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

^^ I'm pretty sure that is just flat out wrong.

It's more than "pretty sure". It is incorrect. Period.
post #73 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscrazy View Post

yes that is true that they are bit for bit the same size..but your missing my point....dtshd and dolby truehd are encoded into one audio track on the disk and must run through a processor to decode the audio into separate channels. Dolby TrueHD and DTSHD Master decode the the information slightly differntly....where PCM is not encoded therefore all the audio is on separate tracks and your receiver does not need a processor to decode the information

 

It is all PCM. Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are simply compressed losslessly. If you send either one to your AVR the first thing it does is unpack the PCM and then do whatever you have told the AVR to do plus any internal processing necessary. If instead you send the PCM from the player to the AVR it does the exact same thing but doesn't need to 'unpack' it first. Think of it like a ZIP file on a USB drive. You can have a Word document that contains, say, your post above. Or you can losslessly compress it using ZIP. if you then copy the Word .doc file to your PC and open it with MS Word, your PC will display the content of you document. If you copy the ZIP file to the PC, unzip it using a 'decoder' (Zip itself) and then open it with Word, you see the exact same thing as before. It is (roughly) similar with PCM, TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. 

 

Roger is the ultimate authority on this - you might care to google him and his credentials if you are unaware of them ;)

post #74 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscrazy View Post

yes that is true that they are bit for bit the same size..but your missing my point....dtshd and dolby truehd are encoded into one audio track on the disk and must run through a processor to decode the audio into separate channels. Dolby TrueHD and DTSHD Master decode the the information slightly differntly....where PCM is not encoded therefore all the audio is on separate tracks and your receiver does not need a processor to decode the information

 

You don't understand how it works. Google will probably find it fairly easily for you. 

post #75 of 105
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/home-theater/dolby-truehd.html http://www.dts.com/professionals/sound-technologies/codecs/dts-hd-master-audio.aspx Please copy and paste these websites to your browser and read thuroughly and carfully...They do state their nature of how they are compressed to save space on discs...basicly just put in a "ZIP" file If you will and also dolby does state an added feature for altering dynamic range...I will post back later with a ref. for PCM, and a ref. as to how they are all very differnt in file size and the way they are written to a disk
post #76 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You don't understand how it works. Google will probably find it fairly easily for you. 
Hmmm. We were doing well until you bolded that line from him smile.gif. What he said is actually correct there. A processor must be used to decode the lossless stream whereas we don't need one for PCM audio. Lossless streams such as TrueHD are also "layered" meaning that the channels are not encoded discretely but rather, created in a way to allow incremental decoding. To decode the full channels, you decode stereo and from there, the 5.1 and then 7.1. I think this may be behind OP's confusion. This feature allows the content author to create the proper downmix as opposed to leaving it to the decoder to figure out. He is also right in that these tracks have metadata and hence can cause the decoder to produce something other than bit for bit output. That is not a bad thing and can be overridden by the user usually. But it is there.

If you want to read more about how lossless encoding works, here is an article I wrote a while back to bring it down to layman terms: Lossless Audio Compression.
post #77 of 105
Just so there is no confusion, TruHD is fully lossless in nature and will produce discrete output of all the channels fed to it. I was just clarifying that some of the reasoning and how it works may have led to some confusion smile.gif.
post #78 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscrazy View Post

yes that is true that they are bit for bit the same size..but your missing my point....dtshd and dolby truehd are encoded into one audio track on the disk and must run through a processor to decode the audio into separate channels. Dolby TrueHD and DTSHD Master decode the the information slightly differntly....where PCM is not encoded therefore all the audio is on separate tracks and your receiver does not need a processor to decode the information

Given that DTS HDMA is an extension built onto the lossy DTS encode, this cannot possibly be true for DTS. It's not for DD either. However the codecs assign bits to channels, it's not matrixed like old fashioned Dolby, it's discrete multichannel both in lossy and lossless formats.
post #79 of 105
Please don't tell Roger how Dolby works....Let me get my popcorn first!
post #80 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

...and a Zip file will move the spreadsheet data from one cell to another.biggrin.gif

This is truly the best line ever!
post #81 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscrazy View Post

and to add to my last post.....DTS HD Master and Dolby True HD are Encoded Into Completely Differnt File types from one another

So if I zip a file and use WinRar to rar the same file, after decompressing them they are different now?eek.gif

*


(sorry bored at work frown.gif )
post #82 of 105
part of my original post was way behind where I was in thought and as I read it back sounded stupid haha...the part about one sounding different then the other,all in all all formats should be exactly the same by the time it gets to your amp....but I have noticed some problems with my blu ray player itself....seems like some sound tracks are really compressed. Im not sure if its is from one format or another but pcm seems less compressed than everything else...i have read that it is a flaw with the player itself not being capable of sending the full bandwith and just compressing the the extras....im not sure if this is true or not but leads me to a question....does anyone know of any truth to this...I have a denon dvd player and a pioneer dvd player and i seem to get way more detail out of the denon, but also I have read somewhere that all blu ray players sound the same through hdmi. I have been wanting to buy an oppo blu ray player but Im kinda worried that its not going to give me any better sound that my cheap sony player
post #83 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Given that DTS HDMA is an extension built onto the lossy DTS encode, this cannot possibly be true for DTS.
And yet, it is. Strange but true!
Quote:
It's not for DD either.
Why not, since Dolby lossless is not built onto Dolby Digital?
Quote:
However the codecs assign bits to channels, it's not matrixed like old fashioned Dolby, it's discrete multichannel both in lossy and lossless formats.
I can save you some time. No amount of your explanations will alter the fact that lossless codecs are lossless.
post #84 of 105
Wow. The post i rezponded to said the lossy versions are single channel . Maybe i wasnt clear but i think i am right thst lossy multichannel like lossy stereo actually contains thd info for each channel. If i am wrong i will be fascinated to hear how you decode a mono signal to multichannel and keep the info for each channel straight which is all i was trying to say.
post #85 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Wow. The post i rezponded to said the lossy versions are single channel . Maybe i wasnt clear but i think i am right thst lossy multichannel like lossy stereo actually contains thd info for each channel. If i am wrong i will be fascinated to hear how you decode a mono signal to multichannel and keep the info for each channel straight which is all i was trying to say.
My apologies! I misread your reply as referring to DTS not being lossless instead of being carried as discrete channels. Of course you are correct that these lossless codecs are discrete channels. wink.gif
post #86 of 105
DTS-HD MA 5.1 192kHz decoding is not always lossless or 'bit-for bit' identical' to the source. I've yet to encounter a standalone BDP that can decode it fully to PCM 5.1 192kHz. Find a source (such as a 2L BD), decode it in your player and send PCM to AVR via HDMI. See what the AVR tells you about the sample rate of the incoming PCM.
post #87 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

DTS-HD MA 5.1 192kHz decoding is not always lossless or 'bit-for bit' identical' to the source. I've yet to encounter a standalone BDP that can decode it fully to PCM 5.1 192kHz. Find a source (such as a 2L BD), decode it in your player and send PCM to AVR via HDMI. See what the AVR tells you about the sample rate of the incoming PCM.

I remember people discussing that issue with the 2L bd awhile back. PCM should work at 192khz (according to the folks who had an oppo) but when bit streaming I think it's the receiver/prepro thats down converting since it can't process the 192khz and all that audyssey blah blah and such.
post #88 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I remember people discussing that issue with the 2L bd awhile back. PCM should work at 192khz (according to the folks who had an oppo) but when bit streaming I think it's the receiver/prepro thats down converting since it can't process the 192khz and all that audyssey blah blah and such.
Here's what I found from a BDP-93 with a 2L disc that has PCM, DTS and Dolby signals all encoded at 192 kHz:

DTS-HD MA decoded in the player comes through at 96 kHz.
TrueHD decoded in the player comes through at 192 kHz.
Both codecs bitstream through at 192 kHz (there's no other choice, actually).
Native PCM plays at 192 kHz.

This suggests that the BDP-93 is electing to decode only the 96 kHz part of the DTS bitstream.
post #89 of 105
the 96 kHz part of the DTS bitstream?
post #90 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

the 96 kHz part of the DTS bitstream?
Yes. DTS 192 kHz coding splits the spectrum at 48 kHz (96 kHz sampling) so that a decoder that is not 192 kHz capable has an easier time decoding the audio.
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