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Low vs mid vs high priced DACs? - Page 7

post #181 of 232
2/4/13 at 8:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Why should I bother. You've obviously already made up your mind on the matter.
I'll make up my mind once the relevant facts are presented. So far you haven't been able to present any that's relevant to DAC prices discussed.
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post #182 of 232
2/5/13 at 4:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

So, this has what to do with the current understanding of reproduced sound technology? Specifically, what of DAC do you think would fall into such possibility?

Never assume we know everything there is to know in any particular field. You can bet that in 100 years time they will look back at us now and think how little we knew and how ignorant we were... just like when we look back 100 years.

I agree. They will be laughing about the fact that so many were obsessing over solved problems like resistors, capacitors and DACs while a whole world of improvements in loudspeakers, recordings and room acoustics were waiting in the wings.
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Until your sound system in your room sounds exactly like real life or a real orchestra in front of you... then there is still scope for improvement.

The most important question is where that improvement will appear. Those who lack the abstract reasoning mental power required to understand the meaning of widespread and well-known bypass testing of amplifiers DACs and the like will continue to spin their wheels by obsessing over solved problems, wasting their time, passion and money decades and decades after they were solved.

The bright future of audio is the whole world of improvements in loudspeakers, recordings and room acoustics are waiting in the wings once the time wasted with obvious wheel-spinners like DACs and amplifiers is redirected into productive areas like speakers and room acoustics.

My challenge to the golden eared community, which is to find any audible flaw in a common $30 USB DAC by means of a proper listening test would attract dozens of contestants, if any of them had the conviction of their purported beliefs. The wind in their sails is posturing not performance.

The one hopeful thing I've seen so far in this thread is mention of a under $100 asynch USB DAC, supporting my contention that this expensive hot product of last year is well on its way to commodity pricing. Behringer's successor to the UCA 202 will probably be asynch, sell for the same price, and sound exactly the same. ;-)
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post #183 of 232
2/5/13 at 10:53am
Thread Starter 
Arnye, Arnye, old buddy... smile.gif
I'll continue ignoring the ad-hominems (nouveau riche which has an obvious negative connotation, the comments about my level of understanding etc). because I reflected and I still think there may be a chance that something good will come out of this discussion.
take the test you posted. it's a start.
now, if those guys showed more than a low-res, black and white pic of some floor standing speakers with the grilles on and chose to be a bit more accurate than "super duper audiophile system with bad ass cables" it would've been better. why? because they are giving people (including me) something to pick upon. and they (people) may be right.
they could've chosen a well-respected speaker model, like the Revels which are designed based on healthy DBT methods... and maybe a good measuring amp and not necessarily very expensive like those made by Bryston... not that I try to suggest that such amps and speakers are audibly better than cheaper ones, but it lowers the probability that extraneous factors are involved and that heinous guys like me pick on it. oh, and they seem to realize it themselves:
Now, it is very difficult to use negative results to prove
the inaudibility of any given phenomenon or process.
There is always the remote possibility that a different system
or more finely attuned pair of ears would reveal a
difference. But we have gathered enough data, using sufficiently
varied and capable systems and listeners, to state
that the burden of proof has now shifted. Further claims
that careful 16/44.1 encoding audibly degrades highresolution
signals must be supported by properly controlled
double-blind tests.

but, nevertheless, it is a good start, congrats. and I'm not being sarcastic.
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post #184 of 232
2/5/13 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post


Now, it is very difficult to use negative results to prove
the inaudibility of any given phenomenon or process.

So wise up and don't try to prove inaudibility. Instead, if someone claims that a certain something something is audible, let them prove that.

BTW dwelling on inaudibiility shows once again a lack of understanding of how to properly test equipment. In every DBT I've done or heard of, the hypothesis was that an audible difference existed.
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There is always the remote possibility that a different system
or more finely attuned pair of ears would reveal a
difference.

Whether you want to wait around for someone to prove that they can run a mile in a minute is up to you! ;-)
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But we have gathered enough data, using sufficiently
varied and capable systems and listeners, to state
that the burden of proof has now shifted.

Only people who ended up in the class curve below Forrest Gump would go that route.
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post #185 of 232
2/5/13 at 12:03pm
Thread Starter 
Arny, I understand your anger. just today I read on a local audiophile forum about a guy who spent more on cables than on the rest of the system (and the rest of the system is very cheap, speakers cost $1000 and are 3 ways floor standers). I am not joking. he repeatedly suggested in online discussions that he gets a boner just by looking at cable price tags.
so I can totally understand why you think we're the same and all audiophiles deserve to be ridiculed. yes, some guys indeed deserve to be ridiculed. I happen to know about cases where hifi dealers initiated denigration campaigns directed towards people who dared to speak their minds and said that this or that sounded like crap. this included threat calls and I am not joking. it is a cruel world and it is all about money. I agree that the vast majority of the audio makers and dealers are indeed cold hearted bastards out to get our money.
but not all of them are.
Edited by gn77b - 2/5/13 at 12:10pm
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post #186 of 232
2/5/13 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The one hopeful thing I've seen so far in this thread is mention of a under $100 asynch USB DAC, supporting my contention that this expensive hot product of last year is well on its way to commodity pricing.


Do you think async is a step forward over synchronous?
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post #187 of 232
2/5/13 at 1:00pm
Thread Starter 
IMO async USB si the only way to go. I'd be hard pressed to find any disadvantage.
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post #188 of 232
2/5/13 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The one hopeful thing I've seen so far in this thread is mention of a under $100 asynch USB DAC, supporting my contention that this expensive hot product of last year is well on its way to commodity pricing.


Do you think async is a step forward over synchronous?

It addresses a problem that apparently nobody has ever heard in a proper listening test.

Theoretically, it shouldn't hurt SQ.

As a reason to increase the price of a USB DAC by 1,000% it seems to be a poor value.

For the same price, it might not be a bad idea.
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post #189 of 232
2/5/13 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

IMO async USB si the only way to go. I'd be hard pressed to find any disadvantage.

I must be better at finding disadvantages then you. ;-)

Disadvantages:

(1) Significantly higher cost

(2) Vastly reduced number of alternatives

The audible advantages must be nil since none of its advocates seem willing to invest in a proper listening test to affirm its efficacy.
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post #190 of 232
2/5/13 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

Arny, I understand your anger.

You seem to have a overwrought imagaination.
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just today I read on a local audiophile forum about a guy who spent more on cables than on the rest of the system (and the rest of the system is very cheap, speakers cost $1000 and are 3 ways floor standers). I am not joking. he repeatedly suggested in online discussions that he gets a boner just by looking at cable price tags.

It is his money to waste.
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so I can totally understand why you think we're the same and all audiophiles deserve to be ridiculed.

Except I don't. There's that hyperactive imagination working overtime, I guess.
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yes, some guys indeed deserve to be ridiculed.

Yes, the guys who think they know it all and are going school the guy who invented ABX on the topic of how to do proper listening tests...

Poor schmucks who believe audiophile myths need education more than redicule. The world sure has enough of them!
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I happen to know about cases where hifi dealers initiated denigration campaigns directed towards people who dared to speak their minds and said that this or that sounded like crap.

Merely saying that certain stuff sounds the same gets similar treatment.
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this included threat calls and I am not joking. it is a cruel world and it is all about money.

..for some people.
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I agree that the vast majority of the audio makers and dealers are indeed cold hearted bastards out to get our money.

Who is this that you are agreeing with?
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but not all of them are.

I think most of them are well-meaning enough. After all I used to work for an audio dealer and I still think those were good days.

Some of my best friends are audio manufacturer reps...
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post #191 of 232
2/5/13 at 1:58pm
Thread Starter 
remember the example I gave above? the one about the S/PDIF vs USB input? anecdotal evidence seemed to correlate with measurements.
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post #192 of 232
2/5/13 at 2:04pm
Thread Starter 
Arny, how come English is not my first language and I spell better than you?
yes, you did lower the bar that low with your latter responses.
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post #193 of 232
2/5/13 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

remember the example I gave above? the one about the S/PDIF vs USB input? anecdotal evidence seemed to correlate with measurements.

no, I don't remember that. Got a post number?
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post #194 of 232
2/5/13 at 6:29pm
126

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1438570/low-vs-mid-vs-high-priced-dacs/120#post_22918121
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post #195 of 232
2/5/13 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

remember the example I gave above? the one about the S/PDIF vs USB input? anecdotal evidence seemed to correlate with measurements.

So what? it was a sighted evaluation.

I can't read minds and know which biases were affecting what, but as long as the evaluation has a known source of bias, it is an opinion survey and not really a listening test.
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post #196 of 232
2/6/13 at 7:42am
Thread Starter 
here's something interesting for the audience: Arny vs John Atkinson: http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate/

now, in the MP3, somewhere between min 17 and 18, JA says that he likely took part in more DBTs than most of the vocal objectivists (he actually enumerates some of them). still, looks like he's not a fan of them. go figure...

if I were to play the devil's advocate, isn't the buying decision process actually worse than a DBT, most of the times? how many of us get to listen to amp A and B for weeks in their homes before purchase? very few.
Edited by gn77b - 2/6/13 at 7:47am
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post #197 of 232
2/6/13 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

here's something interesting for the audience: Arny vs John Atkinson: http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate/

now, in the MP3, somewhere between min 17 and 18, JA says that he likely took part in more DBTs than most of the vocal objectivists (he actually enumerates some of them). still, looks like he's not a fan of them. go figure...

IMO if JA became a fan of DBTs it would ruin his life.
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if I were to play the devil's advocate, isn't the buying decision process actually worse than a DBT, most of the times? how many of us get to listen to amp A and B for weeks in their homes before purchase? very few.

Very few people have ever heard two or more amps compared, level matched and fast-switched at their whim, in a scientifically designed listening room, using recordings chosen to maximize the possibility of hearing differences.

Those were the test conditions for the oft-maligned 1986 Stereo Review power amp tests.

http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf
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post #198 of 232
2/6/13 at 10:17am
Thread Starter 
like I said. this will be settled when science (LOL) reaches a high level of understanding of our brain's inner workings. I'm sure there'll be a day when we'll look at a computer program and go well, so this explains why I like beer LOL
science is in the stone age, we still drive very energy inefficient cars, we haven't colonized the Moon, there's no cure for cancer etc. JA doesn't know all the answers, you don't know all the answers, I don't know all the answers.
what's stupid is that, if I were to believe that JA and his magazine are 100% right, there's no other way of getting a good stereo other than buying, selling after months, buying again etc. pretty convenient for the manufacturers, they always win.
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post #199 of 232
2/6/13 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

like I said. this will be settled when science (LOL) reaches a high level of understanding of our brain's inner workings.

No, we already understand denial well enough, and that's what is being pushed above.
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post #200 of 232
2/8/13 at 12:38pm
If anybody can hear a difference between two competently designed DACS in a properly run test, then one is broken. End of story.
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post #201 of 232
2/8/13 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by htcritic View Post

If anybody can hear a difference between two competently designed DACS in a properly run test, then one is broken. End of story.

Oh, the "one is broken" punch line.

Did you read that line on the interweb somewhere once?
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post #202 of 232
2/8/13 at 5:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by htcritic View Post

If anybody can hear a difference between two competently designed DACS in a properly run test, then one is broken. End of story.
competently designed - where's the definition of that?
properly run test - where's the definition of that?

I can't believe it was so simple...
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post #203 of 232
2/8/13 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

competently designed - where's the definition of that?.

External DAC units made by mass market audio companies. Don't include DIY-designs in the same category those can be made to sound different.
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post #204 of 232
2/9/13 at 4:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htcritic View Post

If anybody can hear a difference between two competently designed DACS in a properly run test, then one is broken. End of story.
competently designed - where's the definition of that?

All nonlinear distortion and noise 100 dB or more down.

0.1 dB frequency response over the audible range with phase response to match.

The above are conservative. Equipment performing as much as 10 times worse has been found to be audibly sufficient - free of audible flaws
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properly run test - where's the definition of that?

Time synched, level matched, double blind.

Please see: http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bs/R-REC-BS.1116-1-199710-I!!PDF-E.pdf
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post #205 of 232
2/9/13 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

IMO async USB is the only way to go. I'd be hard pressed to find any disadvantage.





I've listened to this product for the last 3 days. It holds it's own with my Parasound Z-dac at 1/5 the retail price. And the unit is powered over USB, so no need to purchase a high-end power cord for your digital device (sarcasm).
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post #206 of 232
2/9/13 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Oh, the "one is broken" punch line.

Did you read that line on the interweb somewhere once?

Idiot
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post #207 of 232
2/9/13 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

All nonlinear distortion and noise 100 dB or more down.

0.1 dB frequency response over the audible range with phase response to match.


Since most outboard DACs are purchased for the use of getting computer audio to a hi-fi system, how about the importance of its USB or SPDIF interface? Does the DAC have its own purpose built ASIO driver or does it need to use a generic software interface? This alone can make a world of difference.

Or how about if it is USB powered or has its own power supply? If it is USB powered, then how clean and stable is the 5v on anyone's particular USB port? How many other USB devices is your computer needing to power at the same time?

So what exactly is the definition of a "competently designed" DAC?
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post #208 of 232
2/9/13 at 4:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by htcritic View Post

Idiot

So I presume from that old tired line you gave, you formed your opinion from reading other people's opinions on interweb forums rather than actual experience with different DACs yourself? And then you pass your opinion off as a "end of story" fact!

BS has a life of its own on the interweb.
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post #209 of 232
2/9/13 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by htcritic View Post

Idiot

That's funny!
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post #210 of 232
2/9/13 at 8:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K Shep View Post

That's funny!
funny? hm.
it would be funny, had I not received two infractions for the mention of the word penis, without it being used as a derogative smile.gif
in a perfect world, the guy would receive at least an infraction.
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