or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › SONY VPL-VW500ES SXRD 4K Projector : IFA BERLIN 2013
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

SONY VPL-VW500ES SXRD 4K Projector : IFA BERLIN 2013 - Page 5

post #121 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The blue laser lit phosphor Sony is using in the referenced business class projector emits white light, that it filter twice to separate the white into the three primaries. The first filter/mirror passes one color and then off a mirror to reach the first chip, leaving the other filter/mirror to pass the second color sending it directly to the second or center chip, leaving the third to bounce off two mirrors to reach the third chip in the engine.

Wow, after all that craziness, how do you think it would translate to a HT machine @ D65?
post #122 of 482
Its really not that all different than the existing LCOS light engines whuch use a bulb and this one which uses a burning phosphor. The filtet/mirrors may be a little different to adjust for pwrhaps a slightly different type of white. The real issue is what will be the lumens when the projector puts out d65 white? The phosphor should last a lot longer than a bulb and decay a lot less rapidly.
post #123 of 482
Anyone know if this new model will be displayed at IFA in Berlin?
post #124 of 482
Question about convergence with the 1st Sony 4K model, this new one and anything JVC comes with this year. How does the 4K experience get impacted when in 1080P you have convergence which is off that "acceptable", "luck of the draw" amount from the factory that can't be quite gotten right across the screen with full pixel shifts? Is it less noticeable when in the up converted mode to 4K? I mean if you are really giving it a look like most of us do up close when we get new projectors.

Or are the 4K models all coming with the micro zone convergence adjustments and these lend themselves to not being as supposedly a negative thing to do with 4K as is reported by "some" more knowledgeable members here to be with 1080P?


Thanks for any thoughts!
post #125 of 482
I guess that's why we haven't heard much about the Red Ray projector. thanksj734
post #126 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonF View Post

Question about convergence with the 1st Sony 4K model, this new one and anything JVC comes with this year. How does the 4K experience get impacted when in 1080P you have convergence which is off that "acceptable", "luck of the draw" amount from the factory that can't be quite gotten right across the screen with full pixel shifts? Is it less noticeable when in the up converted mode to 4K? I mean if you are really giving it a look like most of us do up close when we get new projectors.

Or are the 4K models all coming with the micro zone convergence adjustments and these lend themselves to not being as supposedly a negative thing to do with 4K as is reported by "some" more knowledgeable members here to be with 1080P?


Thanks for any thoughts!

This is something I've been thinking about too but without knowing too much about the panel technology, I can only guess. I'm sort of thinking that in a typical 1080p PJ if your half a pixel out on convergence, thats actually a full pixel out for a 4k image. But then I think that on a 4k panel, full pixel shift is the same as half a pixel shift on a 1080p projector so the 'micro' convergence won't be as necessary - ie, full pixel shifts will be more refined simply because its a 4k panel and we'll have less desire (and visual acuity) to go any less than a full pixel shift - the micro adjust will be just that - micro. If your end result after full pixel tweaking leaves you 1/4 pixel out on the 4k panel, then thats similar to being 1/8 of a pixel out on a 1080p panel and very difficult to notice once you move away a few feet. There's probably more to it than that, my understanding isn't that great when it comes to how the panels work.

One thing I would say is that when 4k projectors eventually hit a lower price point, it will be the lesser quality lenses and the chromatic abberation which would become more of a spoiler than panel alignment issues. It will be interesting to see (in years to come) which manufacturer can produce a $5000 4k projector with a decent lens and you only need to look at the Sony VW1000 lens to see where a big chunk of the cost comes from.
post #127 of 482
So I take it that is one fine, beautiful lens on the VW1000? Who makes it for them?
post #128 of 482
I've been holding off on a vw1000 for a few months now to see what comes of this Sony rumor.
So far my thoughts are this....

1) It WON'T have a lens as good as the vw1000, but that projector is 25K. Did we really expect it to? If it can resolve the resolution and its half the price, i'm good.

2) It won't be as bright. Now, as i write this, i'd also like to state that i'd be surprised if its only 1000 lumens. The VW95 was 1000 lumens, the HW30 was 1300 lumens, and the HW50 is 1700 lumens. Maybe this will be a 1300 lumen machine again? But then again, maybe it will be 1000 lumens and that will be the big differential between the new 4K projector and the vw1000.

3) Depending on the release date, it may not have HDMI 2.0. This is the biggie for me. I'd hate to pony up the dough for this thing and find out in a year when (IF) a viable 4K viewing option is available that this 4K projector won't be compatible. Early adopter risk, yes, but i'm not sure i'm willing. In that case, the VW1000 is a better purchase if Sony actually goes through with the HDMI 2.0 upgrade on it.

4) I would consider a JVC as well. The only reason i didn't get a jvc and went for a sony was response time for gaming. Sony has 16ms lag in game and photo modes, whereas the JVC projectors with e-shift have around 80-90 ms. The VW1000 has 46ms according to HDTVTEST, and this is quite a bit more than the VW95, HW30, and HW50. If JVC has similar response time, that will be a possibility too. But i definately want that LCOS black level.

5) Is the VW1000 upscaling as good as 4K? I know it sounds unlikely, but if thats the case, then who cares?tongue.gif
post #129 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

I've been holding off on a vw1000 for a few months now to see what comes of this Sony rumor.
So far my thoughts are this....

1) It WON'T have a lens as good as the vw1000, but that projector is 25K. Did we really expect it to? If it can resolve the resolution and its half the price, i'm good.

2) It won't be as bright. Now, as i write this, i'd also like to state that i'd be surprised if its only 1000 lumens. The VW95 was 1000 lumens, the HW30 was 1300 lumens, and the HW50 is 1700 lumens. Maybe this will be a 1300 lumen machine again? But then again, maybe it will be 1000 lumens and that will be the big differential between the new 4K projector and the vw1000.

3) Depending on the release date, it may not have HDMI 2.0. This is the biggie for me. I'd hate to pony up the dough for this thing and find out in a year when (IF) a viable 4K viewing option is available that this 4K projector won't be compatible. Early adopter risk, yes, but i'm not sure i'm willing. In that case, the VW1000 is a better purchase if Sony actually goes through with the HDMI 2.0 upgrade on it.

4) I would consider a JVC as well. The only reason i didn't get a jvc and went for a sony was response time for gaming. Sony has 16ms lag in game and photo modes, whereas the JVC projectors with e-shift have around 80-90 ms. The VW1000 has 46ms according to HDTVTEST, and this is quite a bit more than the VW95, HW30, and HW50. If JVC has similar response time, that will be a possibility too. But i definately want that LCOS black level.

5) Is the VW1000 upscaling as good as 4K? I know it sounds unlikely, but if thats the case, then who cares?tongue.gif

Sony has actually posted in the VW1000ES thread that they will offer the upgrade. Just don't expect it for free. smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #130 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonF View Post

So I take it that is one fine, beautiful lens on the VW1000? Who makes it for them?

I don't know, I've never seen one let alone tested one - from what I've read it is a very good one though. I've no idea who makes it either - probably made by a superhero or possibly even god? smile.gif
post #131 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Sony has actually posted in the VW1000ES thread that they will offer the upgrade. Just don't expect it for free. smile.gif
Have the AVS forum owners or the mods ever verified that the various "Sony Dave's" and "SonyListens" here on the forum are Sony employees that speak for Sony, and not just some Sony fanboys that want to "help" Sony or just trolling?
The "SonyListens" account is signed in different posts by several names.
post #132 of 482
When comparing the Sony 4K VPL-VW1000ES ($25K MSPR) to their next 4K projector (100ES ?) ($12K), one should remember past history. As I recall, when 1080p first appeared, Sony had a very expensive projector named Qualia (think 1000ES) and came out later with a cheaper 1080p projector called the Ruby. The price difference was substantial and the Ruby had the same resolution (but lessor quality lens) as the Qualia, but it even had a few improvements. I never owned the more expensive Qualia, but did own the Ruby. I seem to recall that Qualia owners where disappointed that the Ruby provided similar bang for a lot less buck and was missing the technical enhancements. And it wasn't long after the Ruby was out that other 1080p models from Sony and others made even the investment in a Ruby seem foolish in hindsight. Projectors improve and the prices come down thanks to evolving tech and competition. The only difference that I can see between now and then is that there was more source material and standards when 1080p was released as HD was being broadcast and 720p projectors were already out.

Don't shoot me if I have any of this wrong. I'm old and my memory gets fuzzy sometimes. biggrin.gif

If you can afford a 1000ES, more power to you and you've enjoyed a great 4K projector sooner. My point is that Sony and others will eventually release cheaper (and in some respects better) 4K projectors. They'd be showing up sooner than we're seeing, but the content and standards aren't really here yet. It's all just around the corner, which is why I'm waiting on 4K.
post #133 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Have the AVS forum owners or the mods ever verified that the various "Sony Dave's" and "SonyListens" here on the forum are Sony employees that speak for Sony, and not just some Sony fanboys that want to "help" Sony or just trolling?
The "SonyListens" account is signed in different posts by several names.

I know who Sony Dave is. smile.gif and yes he is employed by Sony, for the last 13 years.
Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 8/8/13 at 5:29pm
Reply
Reply
post #134 of 482
Thread Starter 
post #135 of 482
Sure the cutting edge eventually becomes commodity, and sometimes pretty quickly. However there will always be the next step (technology has got to evolve), and there will always be people willing to pay for it. Did Sony actually make money on Qualia - not so sure. But Qualia was simply a first step for a much larger market a few years down the road. The Japanese take a long-term view. Meanwhile early adopters got their toys and helped Sony pay the bills on their SXRD technology investment. Nothing wrong with that ):
post #136 of 482
The New Sony 4K is very very nice i assure you and for most people has more than enough light output.

At 14995 Retail , its amazing and I dont see how or why anyone wouldn't buy a 4K at this price point as the content is going to grow very quickly.

Keep in mind their 4K tv panels just dropped like 40% so now most people can afford them and they are not much more than a nice 2K tv.

Samsung just dropped their price as well on their 4K panels to follow suit.

4K is here and its going to get really good over the next 6 months.

The new HW50 replacement and the new 4k are super cool and priced to sell !!!
post #137 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

The New Sony 4K is very very nice i assure you and for most people has more than enough light output.

At 14995 Retail , its amazing and I dont see how or why anyone wouldn't buy a 4K at this price point as the content is going to grow very quickly.

Keep in mind their 4K tv panels just dropped like 40% so now most people can afford them and they are not much more than a nice 2K tv.

Samsung just dropped their price as well on their 4K panels to follow suit.

4K is here and its going to get really good over the next 6 months.

The new HW50 replacement and the new 4k are super cool and priced to sell !!!

But will it have hdmi 2.0 or an available upgrade for future standards?
post #138 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

The New Sony 4K is very very nice i assure you and for most people has more than enough light output.

At 14995 Retail , its amazing and I dont see how or why anyone wouldn't buy a 4K at this price point as the content is going to grow very quickly.

Keep in mind their 4K tv panels just dropped like 40% so now most people can afford them and they are not much more than a nice 2K tv.

Samsung just dropped their price as well on their 4K panels to follow suit.

4K is here and its going to get really good over the next 6 months.

The new HW50 replacement and the new 4k are super cool and priced to sell !!!

You have seen both these projectors from Sony??
post #139 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

The New Sony 4K is very very nice i assure you and for most people has more than enough light output.

At 14995 Retail , its amazing and I dont see how or why anyone wouldn't buy a 4K at this price point as the content is going to grow very quickly.

Keep in mind their 4K tv panels just dropped like 40% so now most people can afford them and they are not much more than a nice 2K tv.

Samsung just dropped their price as well on their 4K panels to follow suit.

4K is here and its going to get really good over the next 6 months.

The new HW50 replacement and the new 4k are super cool and priced to sell !!!

Actually it was more like a 20% price drop on the Sony LCD/LED 4K UHDTVs: 55" UHD dropped from $5K to $4K and the 65" UHD from $7.5K to $6K.
post #140 of 482
He is trying to drum up business I suspect. A warranted B stock Sony 1000ES is a great deal out there and is selling for less than the $15K of the coming cheaper Sony 4K. If you can afford a $15K purchase, the B stock 1000ES is the way to go. The existing 1000ES reportedly from back channels is still a better machine considering the glass and other things. For the vast majority $15K is simply not affordable and for most they will wait based on financial considerations alone another year for a 4K projector. Sony has tightened up its SURE pricing policy and I suspect only a small level of discounting will be allowed. Sony has made it very clear that dealers giving more than a small discount will be terminated. This will also cause the replacement Sony 50 to street for a higher price than the 50 did.

Will there be a flood of 4K content next year? Not likely. 4K content will indeed start to flow later this year, particularly from the Sony hockey puck server and down load service. The content preloaded on the server is of so so quality but the new movies coming on the download service wil undoubtedly be of higher 4K quality. 4K bluray if it comes will be a year off and then titles will only slowly flow. The best shot for 4K content will be using the Redray server priced factory direct at $1750 but still not shipping and content supplied in 4K for a fee from Odemax and an emerging competitor. No major studios but a lot of Indy stuff, some quite good. The coming Nanoteck server looks like a joke given the memory size. Buy a 4K projector now because there will be a flood of 4K content coming?

If you want to buy a Sony projector, and I love my 1000ES which I have owned for about 1 1/2 years but watch only 720p and 1080i and 1080p upscaled to 4HD, call Mike at AV Science, a AV Science Forum sponsor. He is a straight shooter and will give you the true lowdown .
Edited by mark haflich - 8/31/13 at 5:25am
post #141 of 482
I can see this puppy at $6999 on street.
post #142 of 482
We will see if newer 4K content for the Sony server is significantly better. I personally think that for most it will be indistinguishable from a high quality 1080p transfer.
post #143 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

We will see if newer 4K content for the Sony server is significantly better. I personally think that for most it will be indistinguishable from a high quality 1080p transfer.

One poster said the movies on the server wasn't different from the master in 4k discs
post #144 of 482
If you aren't buying a 4K projector now, its clearly because there are not enough 4K sources yet and even if there were the extra resolution and bit depth etc are just a fraud with 1080p being the perceptual maximum with the overage being frivolous waste. You don't make anything but the best theoretical decisions when determining what to buy. But you really still have nagging doubts. Thank God for inadequate professional reviewers. smile.gif

Shortly 4K source material will start to flow and we will be able, at least those with 4K projectors, be able to do A/Bs. Some 4K stuff will be better than others due to inadequacies in the 4K mastering chain. The larger the screen, with say 10 ft wide being the minimum acceptable for critical evaluation of 4K, the more visable will be the difference in upscaled vs direct 4K. Unfortunately there will be no way to directly judge 2K material shown in 2K vs upscaled and direct 4K because of projector differences and thank God. This will allow endless forum arguments and justify those who own 2K machines and there decisions not to upgrade to 4K which I suspect are financial decisions rather than what's really best.
post #145 of 482
I think its more like, why pay so much for a 4k capable projector when you will not be able to see benefits until 4K content is available, rather than its too expensive. When there is 4K content, then we will see affordable 4K projectors.
post #146 of 482
4K projectors should also have slight advantages over 2K projectors for 1080p playback, all else being equal. For one, you can do digital convergence correction in half 1080p pixel steps instead of full pixel steps without any negative side effects, which should improve sharpness, especially for 3-panel projectors. Another advantage is that upscaling 1080p content to 4K with a decent algorithm should make the image look more analog/natural, because aliasing should be greatly reduced.
post #147 of 482
Those and other reasons too I suspect. Once again having a variety of 2K projectors to a/b against my 1000ES including the LED, the image wasn't close. I guess I could mess the colors up and make them pop but that's not me. I want calibrated to the source. There is a naturalism to the 1000ES that is just plain missing from the LED. Its really too bad you don't have both to a/b. Its really so bad to have to search for reviewers to support your decisions. Most of the reviewers are simply not competent but so many rely on them to support their own inadequacies. We all have inadequacies, but the areas of course vary. We seek out experts to cover these inadequacies. Unfortunately many of the experts are quacks. Then we trust our eyes going on a quick look at this months ago etc. Then we say I trust my eyes.
post #148 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Those and other reasons too I suspect. Once again having a variety of 2K projectors to a/b against my 1000ES including the LED, the image wasn't close. I guess I could mess the colors up and make them pop but that's not me. I want calibrated to the source. There is a naturalism to the 1000ES that is just plain missing from the LED. Its really too bad you don't have both to a/b. Its really so bad to have to search for reviewers to support your decisions. Most of the reviewers are simply not competent but so many rely on them to support their own inadequacies. We all have inadequacies, but the areas of course vary. We seek out experts to cover these inadequacies. Unfortunately many of the experts are quacks. Then we trust our eyes going on a quick look at this months ago etc. Then we say I trust my eyes.

So, we should trust your eyes? I have a friend who I sold my Casio LED projector to. I got it off of eBay for $300, it was just for my 5yr old nephew to watch cartoons on the big screen. We were watching the Super Bowl on my RS48 and everyone just loved the picture. So, at half time, I wanted my friend to see the Casio because he wanted to buy a projector that was LED. I sold him my old Panasonic AE900 and it burned the thing out by constantly having it on. He thought the Casio looked so much better than the JVC. He said the Casio looked more natural. Weird and he wears glasses, so he probably got his eyes checked recently. I went over his place last week, and the Casio just looks horrible, terrible picture with HD sources. Probably because its not a HD projector. But he loves it, and brags about his 100in setup. So, if someone likes what they like, who are we to tell them they are blind or crazy. I never once told my friend his eyes needs to be tested, he likes what he likes. Nothing wrong with that.
post #149 of 482
Not blind nor crazy. Just incorrect in your assessment. And yes, I think based on my vast experience in selling and installing projectors over the years, in attending Cedias and CESes, manufacturers trainings and dealer shows, and the ability to do A/Bs and not going on quick demoes spaced widely apart, yes I think one should indeed trust my observations. I'll leave it to others how spot on my assessments have been over the years.

And there are reviewers out there and respectied ones known by all, that off the record for [political considerations think the 1000ES is the best projector out there,
Edited by mark haflich - 9/1/13 at 8:41am
post #150 of 482
As for the Casio comparison, I would just say that (in my head at least):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYVIWz99I
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › SONY VPL-VW500ES SXRD 4K Projector : IFA BERLIN 2013