or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › SONY VPL-VW500ES SXRD 4K Projector : IFA BERLIN 2013
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

SONY VPL-VW500ES SXRD 4K Projector : IFA BERLIN 2013 - Page 9

post #241 of 482
Thread Starter 
The promotionnal video from Sony about the VW500 is online :
post #242 of 482
GROBI TV in German with English text slides

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nj3qCXRCew&feature=c4-overview&list=UUS2HrycxZyP0d4U5Z74LpSA
post #243 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius2 View Post

Actually Sony has over 200 movies in 4K back in 2005 (for DCI), they are just "leaking" somes to consumers now.

They have much more now, just go at DCI part of Sony and see the list.
Don't know where you find 200 movies on the Sony DCI site, they have just listed 64 movies, where many of them are up-converts.
Sony themselves will release 70 titles (including documentaries) for HT initially, but have 100 titles in the works, which are much less than 200.
Sony 4K Digital Cinema Titles

Quote:
Somes are even in 6K and 8K.
Please show me any 6K movies (a display format that doesn't exist) and 8K digital movies (it is a future display format but without any 8K Cinema projectors or 8K cameras.....it is kind of non existing). rolleyes.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius2 View Post

Blackmagic cinema camera $3999 is better (IMHO).

Now if you need 60fps, it can be for now.
Apple and Oranges much?........BMC 4K with S35 size sensor and Sony 4K camcorders with 1/2.3-inch. rolleyes.gif
And how can you have an opinion on any of them as they are not yet available in any shops or any tests of production versions. cool.gif
post #244 of 482
Coolscan. Shame on you. Any forum member can have an opinion on anything regardless of knowledge or experience. That's my opinion and I am sticking to it.
post #245 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Coolscan. Shame on you. Any forum member can have an opinion on anything regardless of knowledge or experience. That's my opinion and I am sticking to it.
biggrin.gif
post #246 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by img eL View Post

GROBI TV in German with English text slides

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nj3qCXRCew&feature=c4-overview&list=UUS2HrycxZyP0d4U5Z74LpSA

thanks for posting, these guys usually have great info on the new models and get right to the point with the facts.

so it looks like the RF module is an add-on for the HW55 but it's built into the VW500ES.

Those glasses are interesting, the general complaint about the open frame design is that it lets too much light in from the sides. I'm guessing there's going to be a few other RF glasses that will work with this setup.

newsony.jpg
post #247 of 482
Somebody said 6K......................?


http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/truth-about-6k?page=0,1


Both 2K and 4K are generally regarded as state-of-the-art for film transfers capturing virtually all the detail contained on 35mm film. Current high-definition media (1080p) has a top resolution of 2K, and many films are being transferred to digital storage at 4K. What exactly do these numbers mean?

2K places 2,048 pixels horizontally across the image, and 4K uses 4,098 pixels. The vertical resolution can vary according to the image being scanned. For example, a 4K scan of the entire 35-mm film frame would be 4,096 x 3,112, while a 4K image of a 1.85:1 output will be 4,096 x 2,214. The bottom line is that 2K has 13% more pixels than HD RGB, and for the same aspect ratio, 4K has four times the number of pixels as 2K. In other technicalities, such as bit depth and color format, 4K, 2K and HD RGB are the same (see How Many Ks Do I Need" at the Digital Cinema Society site for more information).

6K transfers up the ante; it places a whopping 6,144 pixels horizontally across the image, but it doesn't add any information that's not in the original film. Are you just adding better resolution of film grain?

Lowry also feels the lenses used to shoot A Star is Born will limit the effectiveness of a 6K transfer. A Star is Born was shot in CinemaScope, which only lasted about 10 years before being replaced by Panavision. Cukor supposedly hated CinemaScope (the lenses could distort images), and is known to have said it felt like he was shooting through a coffin. (To combat the effect, he shot the far sides of the film in shadows, to focus the action on the actors, since this is a character-driven film, not the typical epic drama that would showcase the wide-screen format.)

According to Lowry, the only benefit of a 6K transfer over 4K might be some slight bit of detail in the noise floor: 4K resolution is already getting lost in the film grain. It's Lowry's position that instead of higher resolution, we should clamor for higher dynamic range. "Instead of 10 bit, why not 16 bit?," he asks. "Wouldn't it be nice to have high dynamic range?" This will reveal more details in the shadows and the blacks, with higher frame rates for film. The advantages of 6K, if there are any, are so subtle that the economics outweigh the benefits. Perhaps it would be more beneficial to save the money spent on such a costly transfer - a 6K scan requires a new telecine scanner, such as the Northlight CCD - and instead direct Hollywood budgets to save more historic movies at 4K.

Harris, meanwhile, actually has used the Northlight 6K scanner - on the subtitles in Godfather II. "I like the image to be as perfect and as true to the original film as possible," he says. "So rather than digitally creating new subtitles, we went back to the original title rolls, and we scanned them in 6K and down-res'd to 4K. This gave us a slight advantage - a knife edge image. Everything else we did at 4K."

Warner Bros. hasn't responded to requests for interviews, so we cannot say why they've chosen this movie for the 6K treatment, or if they're going to down-res to 4K. But Harris is coming down on their side.

"A Star is Born is an important film to do - it's one of the great films," he says. "The performances are extraordinary, and it's something that needs to be preserved. Is there an advantage to scanning at 6K? Slightly. Is it a good idea? I think it's a great idea. There is nothing in A Star is Born that's going to be above 4K. There just isn't any 4K information in there. But you make sure you get every last drop you can. And that is the Warner ethic. Do I think they're doing it correctly? Absolutely. Would I do it that way? Yup!"

Lowry's not buying it. "If you recover absolutely everything on the film, no matter what the display technology is in 100 years, you've already captured everything," he insists.

Maybe Hollywood needs to start filming in higher fidelity so we'll actually need 6K display tech. How about shooting at 48 fps to double the capture rate? VISION3 film stock - with very low grain and stunning sharpness - would blow viewers away.

Ned Price, VP Mastering, Warner Bros. Technical Perations, responds:
"Warner Bros. is scanning A Star Is Born in 6K primarily for restoration and preservation purposes. As a studio, our goal is to have a negative with the maximum amount of information to put back in the vault for archival purposes as well as to be ready for whatever new advances in optical media the future may bring."
post #248 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks for posting, these guys usually have great info on the new models and get right to the point with the facts.

so it looks like the RF module is an add-on for the HW55 but it's built into the VW500ES.

Those glasses are interesting, the general complaint about the open frame design is that it lets too much light in from the sides. I'm guessing there's going to be a few other RF glasses that will work with this setup.

newsony.jpg


Z10K

Do you think they ( TDG-BT500A ) will Work with the Monster´s RF transmitter ?

I have tryed the TDG-BT400A ( same model ,I think, but without the simultan posibility ) from the KDL-XXW905, and they was very comfortable and light ( even better then the Monster´s ) .

dj
post #249 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Somebody said 6K......................?


http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/truth-about-6k?page=0,1


Both 2K and 4K are generally regarded as state-of-the-art for film transfers capturing virtually all the detail contained on 35mm film. Current high-definition media (1080p) has a top resolution of 2K, and many films are being transferred to digital storage at 4K. What exactly do these numbers mean?

2K places 2,048 pixels horizontally across the image, and 4K uses 4,098 pixels. The vertical resolution can vary according to the image being scanned. For example, a 4K scan of the entire 35-mm film frame would be 4,096 x 3,112, while a 4K image of a 1.85:1 output will be 4,096 x 2,214. The bottom line is that 2K has 13% more pixels than HD RGB, and for the same aspect ratio, 4K has four times the number of pixels as 2K. In other technicalities, such as bit depth and color format, 4K, 2K and HD RGB are the same (see How Many Ks Do I Need" at the Digital Cinema Society site for more information).

6K transfers up the ante; it places a whopping 6,144 pixels horizontally across the image, but it doesn't add any information that's not in the original film. Are you just adding better resolution of film grain?

Lowry also feels the lenses used to shoot A Star is Born will limit the effectiveness of a 6K transfer. A Star is Born was shot in CinemaScope, which only lasted about 10 years before being replaced by Panavision. Cukor supposedly hated CinemaScope (the lenses could distort images), and is known to have said it felt like he was shooting through a coffin. (To combat the effect, he shot the far sides of the film in shadows, to focus the action on the actors, since this is a character-driven film, not the typical epic drama that would showcase the wide-screen format.)

According to Lowry, the only benefit of a 6K transfer over 4K might be some slight bit of detail in the noise floor: 4K resolution is already getting lost in the film grain. It's Lowry's position that instead of higher resolution, we should clamor for higher dynamic range. "Instead of 10 bit, why not 16 bit?," he asks. "Wouldn't it be nice to have high dynamic range?" This will reveal more details in the shadows and the blacks, with higher frame rates for film. The advantages of 6K, if there are any, are so subtle that the economics outweigh the benefits. Perhaps it would be more beneficial to save the money spent on such a costly transfer - a 6K scan requires a new telecine scanner, such as the Northlight CCD - and instead direct Hollywood budgets to save more historic movies at 4K.

Harris, meanwhile, actually has used the Northlight 6K scanner - on the subtitles in Godfather II. "I like the image to be as perfect and as true to the original film as possible," he says. "So rather than digitally creating new subtitles, we went back to the original title rolls, and we scanned them in 6K and down-res'd to 4K. This gave us a slight advantage - a knife edge image. Everything else we did at 4K."

Warner Bros. hasn't responded to requests for interviews, so we cannot say why they've chosen this movie for the 6K treatment, or if they're going to down-res to 4K. But Harris is coming down on their side.

"A Star is Born is an important film to do - it's one of the great films," he says. "The performances are extraordinary, and it's something that needs to be preserved. Is there an advantage to scanning at 6K? Slightly. Is it a good idea? I think it's a great idea. There is nothing in A Star is Born that's going to be above 4K. There just isn't any 4K information in there. But you make sure you get every last drop you can. And that is the Warner ethic. Do I think they're doing it correctly? Absolutely. Would I do it that way? Yup!"

Lowry's not buying it. "If you recover absolutely everything on the film, no matter what the display technology is in 100 years, you've already captured everything," he insists.

Maybe Hollywood needs to start filming in higher fidelity so we'll actually need 6K display tech. How about shooting at 48 fps to double the capture rate? VISION3 film stock - with very low grain and stunning sharpness - would blow viewers away.

Ned Price, VP Mastering, Warner Bros. Technical Perations, responds:
"Warner Bros. is scanning A Star Is Born in 6K primarily for restoration and preservation purposes. As a studio, our goal is to have a negative with the maximum amount of information to put back in the vault for archival purposes as well as to be ready for whatever new advances in optical media the future may bring."


You need to fix a typo in this very excellent post First sentence, second pp 4098 should be 4096, This is an interesting discussion of digitizing something shot on film. Shooting raw digital as is happening more and more I think would benefit from increased resolution all other things, fps, bit length being held equal
post #250 of 482
That typo is in the original article, which is five years old. We talked about it here five years ago as well:

Here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1037588/35mm-negative-resolution-is-up-to-10k/30

and here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1050245/a-star-is-born-6k-restoration-discussion
post #251 of 482
Man. Good memory. I can't even remember my posts from last night.
post #252 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Somebody said 6K......................?


http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/truth-about-6k?page=0,1
It is almost so one don't know where to begin on this one...........but the article is from 2008 which gives "some" excuse to Lowry and the author for not knowing much about what they try to explain.
It was also the year when the first digital motion camera with 4K sensor and RAW by RED was taken into use.

First we have to go to page 1 of the article to find out who is Lowry, who should know better......
Quote:
"A 6K transfer is just an attempt at marketing position," declares Lowry Digital Images' Chief Technical Officer John Lowry, who's done high-definition and 4K transfers on some of Hollywood's greatest films, including, Citizen Kane, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, a number of James Bond movies, and the Indiana Jones and Star Wars collections.
I remember reading long and interestin articles about the restoration work on the James Bond franchise, went and bought some of them on DVD and was appalled of how terrible the restoration work was.
I haven't seen the more recent BD release from this restoration so I don't know if they have fixed the quality, but Lowry haven't exactly been someone I respect much since then.

Continuing page 1........
Quote:
"Everything on film is captured at 4K, down to the film grain. In fact, if there is any motion, there's even less resolution than 4K. If the camera pans, there's less than 4K. The bottom line is this measurement of resolution is fragile. Any movement, and you're probably at 2 or 3K in terms of actual resolution due to the blurring caused by camera shutter limitations (similar to how movement causes a blurry image when you're shooting a still frame picture). Even slight camera pans and tilts will cause this. If you're gonna talk about 6K, why not 8K, or 10K? At some point, it just becomes ridiculous. Bottom line: 4K is pretty darn good."
He is both right and wrong........and missing the purpose of scanning film elements at higher than output resolution (or film resolution which is about 3.5K max) is for the the down-conversion software and algorithms to have an abundance of information to work on when deciding on what to combine and what to discard for the 4K output information.

6K is twice the resolution of 4K (without going into details), so by scanning at 6K you will have a better chance of having a better end product than when scanning at the intended output resolution of 4K.
By doing the restoration work and retouching on the 6K scan of the physical film element and then reducing it, will be similar to graphics design for print when one enlarge the original first for a clean-up of lines and then reduce it for print.

Quote:
Harris, meanwhile, actually has used the Northlight 6K scanner - on the subtitles in Godfather II. "I like the image to be as perfect and as true to the original film as possible," he says. "So rather than digitally creating new subtitles, we went back to the original title rolls, and we scanned them in 6K and down-res'd to 4K. This gave us a slight advantage - a knife edge image. Everything else we did at 4K."
This really explains the principle of why one should scan film at higher than 4K and the benefits both on quality and for future archiving.
Quote:
Warner Bros. hasn't responded to requests for interviews, so we cannot say why they've chosen this movie for the 6K treatment, or if they're going to down-res to 4K. But Harris is coming down on their side.

"A Star is Born is an important film to do - it's one of the great films," he says. "The performances are extraordinary, and it's something that needs to be preserved. Is there an advantage to scanning at 6K? Slightly. Is it a good idea? I think it's a great idea. There is nothing in A Star is Born that's going to be above 4K. There just isn't any 4K information in there. But you make sure you get every last drop you can. And that is the Warner ethic. Do I think they're doing it correctly? Absolutely. Would I do it that way? Yup!"
So Harris is the sensible man and opt for max quality......................while..............
Quote:
Lowry's not buying it. "If you recover absolutely everything on the film, no matter what the display technology is in 100 years, you've already captured everything," he insists.
...........Lowry is just being ignorant in 2008...........and in the process explains why there often are such a quality difference between BD releases of historic movies, and generally quality difference between movie releases of movies shot on film.
It is bad decisions and workmanship by the very guys that are there to do the job and ensure that we get the best possible quality.
Quote:
Ned Price, VP Mastering, Warner Bros. Technical Perations, responds:
"Warner Bros. is scanning A Star Is Born in 6K primarily for restoration and preservation purposes. As a studio, our goal is to have a negative with the maximum amount of information to put back in the vault for archival purposes as well as to be ready for whatever new advances in optical media the future may bring."
A good staring point.........even if I don't know if it has displayed stellar quality in releases of these old classics.


6K is a scanning and digital camera capture format with intention of being used for a 4K or 2K display format.


.
Edited by coolscan - 9/8/13 at 8:52am
post #253 of 482
Thread Starter 
post #254 of 482
Thread Starter 
A couple of pics from the VW500ES that I have taken in Berlin :



post #255 of 482
Pinups, No bikini. smile.gif
post #256 of 482
Thread Starter 
Later when the kids are at bed wink.gif
post #257 of 482
That was my description of the pictures you posted.
post #258 of 482
I don't think that in France it is widely known that a "pin up" actually was a picture of a nice young lady wearing a bikini pinned up a wall ......back in what ... ? the 40th ? wink.gif

And those PJs pinned up the wall obviously wear no bikini .......
post #259 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Apple and Oranges much?........BMC 4K with S35 size sensor and Sony 4K camcorders with 1/2.3-inch. rolleyes.gif
And how can you have an opinion on any of them as they are not yet available in any shops or any tests of production versions. cool.gif

It doesn't need to be available to know is better.

It has SSD, something Sony still DREAM about (for that price level).

It has interchangeable lens too, that is a HUGE plus. Sony don't.

Again... for that price level, BMC destroy that Sony alternative.

Did you ever saw the proprietary Sony SD card prices?! It costs arms, hands and still isn't enough. cool.gif
post #260 of 482
Have they fixed the white orbs / blooming / whatever the bleep was going on with the beta / early release units?? Those were having to be sent back in for service to re-calibrate or something to fix the problem.

Pretty funny that "super camera" makes it out the door with that level of wrong going on.

http://vimeo.com/groups/bmcam/videos/74196815
Edited by RonF - 9/10/13 at 9:12pm
post #261 of 482
Thread Starter 
And more pinups wink.gif



post #262 of 482
Looks like the connections are on the back? I still can't believe they put them on the side on the 1000ES. Makes for a very ugly install in my room. :-(
post #263 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

Looks like the connections are on the back? I still can't believe they put them on the side on the 1000ES. Makes for a very ugly install in my room. :-(

They're on the side again. JVC's older chassis design was the same way.
post #264 of 482
Thread Starter 
Wireless HDMI Box will coast 350€ for the VW500ES and the HW55ES.
post #265 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Wireless HDMI Box will coast 350€ for the VW500ES and the HW55ES.

Will it support 4K resolution at 60p or support only up 1080p?
post #266 of 482
Thread Starter 
Good question but I can't undersant the purpose of it, if it can't support 4k in 60hz transmission
post #267 of 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Good question but I can't undersant the purpose of it, if it can't support 4k in 60hz transmission

Pls see the following link about the WHDMI. I hope this is just a typo.
http://www.heimkinoraum.de/upload/files/product/Sony_VPL-VW500_Projector_datasheet_V4.pdf
Quote:
Wireless option (up to Full HD 60p)
Free yourself from cables and keep things tidy with an optional wireless HDMI emitter/ receiver kit. The VPL-VW500ES can wirelessly connect to your games console, Blu-ray™ Disc player and more, and upscales for a 4K experience with Reality Creation.
post #268 of 482
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebits View Post

Will it support 4K resolution at 60p or support only up 1080p?

In the meantime I get the answer from Sony and it's no. frown.gif Only 1080p
post #269 of 482
Will 1080p downsampled (interpolated) on a 4K panel will look worse than 1080p on a native FullHD panel?
post #270 of 482
Instead of attempting to answer on of the last great mysteries of life questions, just run an HDMI cable. And you are violating a forum rule. One never should ask which one looks worse. Proper posting form is to ask which one would look better.

Overheard at an AVS Forum party at Cedia, man look at those two ugly forum guys. Man. Which one do you think is uglier? The one wearing the beret.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › SONY VPL-VW500ES SXRD 4K Projector : IFA BERLIN 2013