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The 'Paint booth' discussion - Paint and Finishing questions - Page 5

post #121 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

So, Duratex (roller grade) on MDF.. I know I need to fill and sand, but do I need to prime MDF first? According to the Duratex website this product is both a primer and a paint. But I know MDF is very porous...

Roller duratex directly over MDF is fine. No problems at all.
post #122 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

Roller duratex directly over MDF is fine. No problems at all.

Good to know. At some point in e next month or two I will probably pick up a few of Erich's flat packs for a mains project. Those SEOS kits are getting harder to resist. biggrin.gif
post #123 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

Roller duratex directly over MDF is fine. No problems at all.

Awesome. That is what I needed to know.
post #124 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Well, you'd want some filtration and moisture removal too. See if you can find CFM ratings printed on the compressor (or Google the make / model number). Make sure they're higher than what the HVLP gun you're planning to use requires.
In my experience it's usually CFM, not GPM. Most 240V compressors can keep up with a small or medium size HVLP. 120V ones can't. My "residential" 240V / 60 gallon compressor can do 13.4CFM @ 40PSI / 11.5CFM @ 90 PSI. That's enough for most HVLP setups I've seen.

I have no specs unfortunately, this thing was handmade. According to the original homeowner, it was made at Allied Signal (Honeywell) and given to him. He said he used it with air tools...I use it to air up car tires and blowing mdf dust out of my clothes. lol. Is there a way to test its capacity and airflow?





I know it's hard to get an answer for this with using the compressor I've got, but essentially I'd use a large compressor to pressurize a pressure pot with dual regulators (one for air in and one for the gun) say something like this one: Pressure pot. Perhaps there are less expensive models out there, but this one has the SS liner and Teflon coating...no rust with water based materials.

Then I'd use an inline air filter or a slightly more expensive wall-mount two-stage filter? Not sure which would be best. With spraying duratex it might not be that important to get down to smaller micron filtration, but other finishes probably. I'm approaching the $700 mark for paint gear, but heck I'd use it for other stuff too.

OR

I go with one of those smaller Fugi HVLP's with gravity feed. Would I be constantly filling the hopper to paint? Maybe better than spending too much on a larger system that's capable of painting larger jobs...decisions.
post #125 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Pressure is not the problem, volume is. See howany GPM your gun choice requires and look up the specs on the compressor.
HVLPs can outrun most residential compressors. Normally need like >10-15GPM at least for most setups.


That's why I went with a turbine HVLP honestly. I didn't want to spend $500+ on a good compressor set up.
post #126 of 138
Speaking of the blotching issue:
Quote:
Blotch Control to Rule Them All
by thewoodwhisperer


One of the most common battles between man and wood involves blotching. How many times have you applied a stain to your latest masterpiece, only to be greeted with a blotchy splotchy mess? If you haven’t had the pleasure of experiencing blotch, its a phenomenon that occurs when a board takes stain unevenly, creating unsightly dark patches (a relatively “mild” case pictured left). Blotching can be avoided by various means, including sanding to higher grits, applying commercially available pre-stain conditioners, or pre-sealing with dewaxed shellac. The latter has been my personal favorite for years and you can learn more about it by watching (Episode 73 – Coloring Blotchy Woods). But as you’ll soon see, there’s a new favorite in the Wood Whisperer’s workshop.

What’s Wrong With Existing Solutions?

The typical methods we use to prevent blotch are certainly effective in that regard. But unfortunately, preventing blotch also means preventing overall color absorption. So the end result is a blotch-free board that is much lighter in color than you originally intended. Even using my old friend shellac, I always have to experiment to find a balance between the concentration of shellac, the number of coats, the amount of sanding, the color of the stain, and the number of coats of stain. The process is nearly always complicated and tedious and the results are typically less than ideal.

Enter Charles Neil’s Pre-Color Conditioner

Last year, Charles Neil came out with a new product called Charles Neil’s Pre-Color Conditioner. To be completely honest, I initially assumed it was just another version of the stuff we already have on the market. Believing 100% in his product and being a man of his word, Charles sent me a can to test for myself. Since then, I have placed two more orders and I haven’t touched my shellac in months! The product is THAT good!
What is it?

Although the product is new, the concept behind it is not. Essentially, this water-based non-toxic formula is a riff on old-fashioned glue size. Glue size is made by mixing good old PVA glue with lots of water and is used for all kinds of sealing applications in solid wood and sheetgoods. But Charles, with over 40 years of finishing experience, has perfected his formula so that its performance is both predictable and repeatable in pretty much any species of wood.

Let’s Put it to the Test!

One of the blotchiest woods I know is pine, so I divided a large square of box store pine into two halves. The left side was pre-treated with 1lb cut shellac (one coat on the bottom and two coats on the top). The right side was pre-treated with the Charles Neal (CN) formula (one coat on the bottom and two coats on the top). All four sections were then treated with a deep red gel stain. The first thing you’ll notice is how much darker the CN side is. Not only is it preventing blotching, its doing so while also allowing the stain to penetrate the wood fibers. Despite the appearance in the photo, I noticed very little difference between the single and double coats of CN Pre Color Conditioner. On the shellac side, you can see that it takes two coats to completely prevent blotching. But do you notice what else we prevented? Yup! Absorption of the stain! Hardly any of the color was accepted by the wood fibers. Many would say, “that’s because you used a shellac solution that was too concentrated!”, and they would be correct. But if I reduce the concentration of shellac, I will not only get more stain absorption, but also more blotching to go with it. This is the back and forth game you play when trying to balance shellac, stain color, and blotch.

No Stain = No Blotch, Right? Nope!

Now truthfully, I rarely use stain on my projects. I much prefer letting the wood age to its natural color, whatever that may be. But even then, blotch-prone woods can still be a problem. Oil finishes, for instance, bring enough amber color to the party that they too can blotch! Check out this piece of cherry ply from my recent wall-hanging cabinet build. After a single coat of oil, the dark areas are plain as day. But with a pre-coat of CN’s formula, the blotching is prevented without taking away the “life” of this beautiful cherry veneer.

As much as I have promoted shellac as the cure for all things blotchy, I am excited to introduce you to a product that works better on ALL accounts: Charles Neil’s Pre-Color Conditioner.

Charles provided me with an initial can of free product for testing but I have purchased my own since then. I am also an affiliate for Charles Neil’s store so any purchase you make using these links helps support our efforts here at TheWoodWhisperer.com.


http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/blotch-control-to-rule-them-all/?category_name=reviews
post #127 of 138
I am getting ready to start a sub build soon, and would like the sub to be stained a very deep and dark brownish/black color. What would be the best type of wood to use on the enclosure being that I want to stain it a deep brown? I definitely want to use 3/4 inch no matter which type of wood I end up going with. Would Baltic birch be a good choice? I don't mind paying a bit more if the end results will be better.

I guess the other option that I have is to use MDF and wrap the enclosure in veneer, but I know absolutely nothing about veneer. Can anyone give me some tips with regards to applying/staining/cutting the veneer properly?
post #128 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am getting ready to start a sub build soon, and would like the sub to be stained a very deep and dark brownish/black color. What would be the best type of wood to use on the enclosure being that I want to stain it a deep brown? I definitely want to use 3/4 inch no matter which type of wood I end up going with. Would Baltic birch be a good choice? I don't mind paying a bit more if the end results will be better.
I guess the other option that I have is to use MDF and wrap the enclosure in veneer, but I know absolutely nothing about veneer. Can anyone give me some tips with regards to applying/staining/cutting the veneer properly?

I have stained Baltic Birch before and the project turned out very nice. It is not the easiest wood to stain IMHO, but if you take the time and do the proper steps and use the right types of stain it can look good. The one thing I have noticed about Baltic Birch is that the quality really seems to vary from store to store. I would try to source some good BB and not the cheap crappy stuff I have seen at Home Depot.
post #129 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am getting ready to start a sub build soon, and would like the sub to be stained a very deep and dark brownish/black color. What would be the best type of wood to use on the enclosure being that I want to stain it a deep brown? I definitely want to use 3/4 inch no matter which type of wood I end up going with. Would Baltic birch be a good choice? I don't mind paying a bit more if the end results will be better.
I guess the other option that I have is to use MDF and wrap the enclosure in veneer, but I know absolutely nothing about veneer. Can anyone give me some tips with regards to applying/staining/cutting the veneer properly?
I think I got a nice finish on BB by using a pre-stain conditioner, a tinting dye, followed by a stain. Then I used 3 coats of flat poly to finish it off. I wasn't after making it as dark as what you're after, but I'm happy with how it turned out.

A few pictures. The camera flash in the first picture really over accentuates the color. The second one is more accurate to how it looks under normal lighting.

post #130 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am getting ready to start a sub build soon, and would like the sub to be stained a very deep and dark brownish/black color. What would be the best type of wood to use on the enclosure being that I want to stain it a deep brown? I definitely want to use 3/4 inch no matter which type of wood I end up going with. Would Baltic birch be a good choice? I don't mind paying a bit more if the end results will be better.
I guess the other option that I have is to use MDF and wrap the enclosure in veneer, but I know absolutely nothing about veneer. Can anyone give me some tips with regards to applying/staining/cutting the veneer properly?

I'm going to repeat this advice because I've yet to see anyone here actually heed it. If staining Baltic Birch black. Dye the wood with acetone/dye mix. Use a black dye of course. You can purchase dye from Woodcraft, Sherwin Williams, ML Campbell, or Rockler. My preference would be ML Campbell, Sherwin Williams, Woodcraft/Rockler in that order, however, you will find smaller quantities and lower pricing by going with Woodcraft/Rockler. After dyeing the wood use a quart of Sherwin Williams BAC Wiping Stain Ebony base, have it tinted with black BAC colorant. Wipe stain on with a rag. Let sit 5-10 minutes. Wipe off. Apply 2nd coat if required, let sit, and wipe. Don't apply more than 2 coats as this can effect topcoat adhesion. Ideally you would spray on your topcoat of choice. If you are an experienced sprayer I would spray 3 coats of catalyzed lacquer that has also been very lightly shaded with black. If not I would spray Polycrylic and add a small amount of dye to it also (although you could skip the dye/top coat step if you choose). Upload pictures and pound your chest as a proud father of a new rich black stained sub. The end.

But whatever you do please don't go out and buy Minwax ebony stain and think it will turn out the way you want it to. If so I may be forced to put your subs and speakers up for sale on Craiglist only to be replaced with a Bose system! Remember sales fgures doesn't always make a product competent....Minwax stains are no exception to this rule! biggrin.gif
post #131 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am getting ready to start a sub build soon, and would like the sub to be stained a very deep and dark brownish/black color. What would be the best type of wood to use on the enclosure being that I want to stain it a deep brown? I definitely want to use 3/4 inch no matter which type of wood I end up going with. Would Baltic birch be a good choice? I don't mind paying a bit more if the end results will be better.
I guess the other option that I have is to use MDF and wrap the enclosure in veneer, but I know absolutely nothing about veneer. Can anyone give me some tips with regards to applying/staining/cutting the veneer properly?


Solid oak (for instance) takes black TransTint dye wonderfully. I know because I've applied it in that manner. I top coated with an oil-based polyurethane (sprayed) and the grain pattern popped after top coating with the poly. Remember: dyes highlight the grain pattern because they penetrate the wood fibers, while stains tend to hide the grain pattern because they lay on the surface more. I generally mix my dyes with Denatured Alcohol (available @ Lowes/Home Depot/etc) because it won't raise the grain like water-based products do. Even water-based products are workable. Just damp the wood to raise the grain. Let it dry and sand lightly with 320 grit to get rid of the nibs or roughness. Apply your water-based dye mix, and repeat until your happy with the color. If you use an alcohol based dye, top coat with oil or (my preference) water-base poly. I've never used tgse3's acetone/dye mix but it sounds good (I'm not wild about working with acetone because I don't have a ventilation system ATM and the weather is not cooperative for outdoor work). If you use a water-based dye, topcoat with Zinsser's seal coat (shellac) first, then follow up with two or three coats of your final top coat (your choice). Again, I like poly for durability.

If you don't care about keeping the grain intact, then just spray paint it. smile.gif

Oak plywood or veneer will take dye/stain differently than solid oak, but I imagine it will be in the same ball park. With birch ply you will need to experiment a bit. Birch takes dye and stain unevenly, but if pre-treated correctly it will turn out well. Read the article I linked just above your post about glue sizing or Charles Neil's pre-stain conditioner to prevent blotchiness. Go to Youtube and look up Charles Neil, Jeff Jewitt or Mark Spagnuolo/Wood Whisperer. There's lots to learn from those guys. Look up articles/posts on Woodweb, Sawmill Creek, etc.

As a matter of fact, watch this video for some tips on how to get a mahogany finish with a dye base, then gel, then topcoat. That look isn't my cup of tea necessarily, but with certain woods, it would make perfect sense. Moreover it demonstrates perfectly the technique involved in making wood the color you want...


And here's a video of Charles Neil demonstrating his pre-stain conditioner:

Edited by mobius - 12/19/12 at 10:19pm
post #132 of 138
Wow, thanks for the detailed replys Modius, Tgse3, Stereodude, & ack_bk!

I will most likely go with Baltic Birtch for my subs and Seos-12 builds. Are there any other types of plys that you guys think would be better than Baltic Birtch?

What about veneer? Is veneer very hard to cut and apply? How much does a sheet of veneer cost and what specific types of veneer should I be considering?
post #133 of 138
Like mobius said oak ply will stain well, but as opposed to birch there is significant grain pattern to it. So it depends on the look you want. I equate oak furniture to more of a traditional design scheme. After all it was incredibly popular late 80's early 90's, and yet today it's hard to find a modern kitchen with oak cabinets. Is it likely more "timeless" than woods with minimal grain, probably. Is it more common today. No. It really depends on the design scheme of your theater/home.

Whatever manufacturer's system you choose I would stick to the principles of dying, staining, sealing. You can prestain condition if it helps with peace of mind. I'm only luke warm on it's effectiveness. Given I've never used/sold/recommended the above mentioned conditioner I can't speak for its effectiveness. The one thing I would recommend against though is using a gel stain. I work in the commercial cabinet, novelty wood finishing market, and I can say without hesitation that no production cabinet shop I know deals in gel stains. Spray stains and wiping stains are by far the most common. Hence why I recommend the BAC Wiping Stain from SW. Are there better options. Sure. Are there better options you can easily get your hands on. None that I'm aware of.

If you get through the dye, stain, seal process and decide there is still too much visible graining then add a few drops of dye your sealer. This will give a slightly more opaque look as opposed to the transparency of a clear sealer. And speaking of sealers your waterborne options will be the most "clear' of your options. Poly will have a slight gold tint to it. While I'm partial to lacquer systems a good compromise may be a waterborne lacquer. Shortened dry time, durable, all while remaining clear. The only caveat is it must be spray applied.

Stereodude your project turned out well! Congrats biggrin.gif
post #134 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

Stereodude your project turned out well! Congrats biggrin.gif
Thanks!

Thanks to you and the other posters in this thread for the helpful advice also.
post #135 of 138
Your birch finish looks nice Stereodude. Nice looking subs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I think I got a nice finish on BB by using a pre-stain conditioner, a tinting dye, followed by a stain. Then I used 3 coats of flat poly to finish it off. I wasn't after making it as dark as what you're after, but I'm happy with how it turned out.
A few pictures. The camera flash in the first picture really over accentuates the color. The second one is more accurate to how it looks under normal lighting.
post #136 of 138
Thread Starter 
X3 Stereodude, that looks great. My next project will be a higher end wood / stain combo.

Just finishing up box 4 now and ready for cure and installing drivers:

I think I've really got the hang of this Duratex application by the 4th box. tongue.gif







post #137 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

X3 Stereodude, that looks great. My next project will be a higher end wood / stain combo.
Thanks for the compliments guys. I took a few pictures today with one of my better cameras that shows the actual color / appearance a bit better.



Gorilla, you've really got that Duratex application down! smile.gif
post #138 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

Like mobius said oak ply will stain well, but as opposed to birch there is significant grain pattern to it. So it depends on the look you want. I equate oak furniture to more of a traditional design scheme. After all it was incredibly popular late 80's early 90's, and yet today it's hard to find a modern kitchen with oak cabinets. Is it likely more "timeless" than woods with minimal grain, probably. Is it more common today. No. It really depends on the design scheme of your theater/home.
Whatever manufacturer's system you choose I would stick to the principles of dying, staining, sealing. You can prestain condition if it helps with peace of mind. I'm only luke warm on it's effectiveness. Given I've never used/sold/recommended the above mentioned conditioner I can't speak for its effectiveness. The one thing I would recommend against though is using a gel stain. I work in the commercial cabinet, novelty wood finishing market, and I can say without hesitation that no production cabinet shop I know deals in gel stains. Spray stains and wiping stains are by far the most common. Hence why I recommend the BAC Wiping Stain from SW. Are there better options. Sure. Are there better options you can easily get your hands on. None that I'm aware of.
If you get through the dye, stain, seal process and decide there is still too much visible graining then add a few drops of dye your sealer. This will give a slightly more opaque look as opposed to the transparency of a clear sealer. And speaking of sealers your waterborne options will be the most "clear' of your options. Poly will have a slight gold tint to it. While I'm partial to lacquer systems a good compromise may be a waterborne lacquer. Shortened dry time, durable, all while remaining clear. The only caveat is it must be spray applied.
Stereodude your project turned out well! Congrats biggrin.gif

Thanks for the reply. Can you, or anyone else, lay out the necessary steps used to go from bare wood, (say either Baltic birch or oak) to completely finished cabinets? I have never done any staining before so I am unsure on how to properly do this? I have done plenty of painting though, but, never staining.
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