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The 'Paint booth' discussion - Paint and Finishing questions - Page 2

post #31 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereo2.0 View Post

I used roller grade and found out you can get a smoother finish when it dries (smooth enough to slide a sub across carpet) if you apply a heavy coat and just spread the paint around evenly until the roller starts to empty out.
Then load up the roller again to cover up the next bare section. Do not re-roll over a previously painted area with an empty roller unless you want to create a finer/grittier surface, which actually looks better (to my eyes at least) but that surface won't slide on carpet as easily.
My smoother surface still looks OK, but it may not be what you want.
(Click on picture for a closer view of the texture)

This is true about most current low voc acrylic coatings. Most people over work standard wall paint which will cause a similar effect (with less stipple of course). Put it on heavy and consistent and then let the product do it's job of leveling. Without the added benefit of extenders (because of VOC content) most latexes will tack over quickly and get worse if over worked.
post #32 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereo2.0 View Post

I used roller grade and found out you can get a smoother finish when it dries (smooth enough to slide a sub across carpet) if you apply a heavy coat and just spread the paint around evenly until the roller starts to empty out.
Then load up the roller again to cover up the next bare section. Do not re-roll over a previously painted area with an empty roller unless you want to create a finer/grittier surface, which actually looks better (to my eyes at least) but that surface won't slide on carpet as easily.
My smoother surface still looks OK, but it may not be what you want.
(Click on picture for a closer view of the texture)

That looks great! Did you just use a single coat? Did you use a smooth or textured roller? My paint isn't getting here until Monday because of the holidays. Looks like ill be painting the following weekend.
post #33 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Did you just use a single coat? Did you use a smooth or textured roller?

I put two coats on a Danley DTS-10 sub with just 1 gallon.
I didn't use any primer so the first coat used up a lot of paint. The second coat took a lot less.
The sub was so big that I only had time to do one coat per evening, which fortunately gave it more time to harden between coats. (Be aware that the paint continues to harden for about a month after drying to the touch. It's kind of fragile during that time)
I still had a little paint left over, which was good for the touch ups needed after moving that sub up a flight of stairs.
Duratex recommends extending the life of the paint remaining in the can by pouring a little water to float on top of the paint before you close it up.

I actually bought their textured roller but I hated how it rolled so I switched to a regular nap roller. That made the application much easier.

It all turned out quite simple to work with, and cleanup is a snap since it's water based. You shouldn't have a problem.
post #34 of 138
Thread Starter 
Cool, good to know and thanks for the tips. I did read the application guide a few times so I have a decent idea of what to expect and saw the tip about spraying some water in the can before closing it up. I was hoping to get a few cabinets (23x25x28) done with the gallon, especially since I have my primed and ready to go.

I also ordered their roller thinking that it would be easier to apply with it, but from your comment maybe I'll use my own 1/2" nap to start with for the first coat.
post #35 of 138
I didn't read that part very thoroughly because I don't have a compressor or pressure pot (I'd like to have both). I've had good luck shooting with my little Earlex turbine unit, but I'd like to move up-line to gravity fed gun...Maybe try 3M's PPS spray system. The pressure pot setup sounds ideal for this material though because of it's viscosity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I ordered a gallon of Duratex (spray) earlier this week. Not sure when it'll get delivered. Did you read their note about HVLP pressure pot? I plan to get a cheap hopper gun from HF instead of trying to HVLP it.
Edit: Added link to spray gun.

Edited by mobius - 11/23/12 at 10:53am
post #36 of 138
Incidentally, for anyone interested, one trick finishers use to minimize stain splotching on some wood (birch, pine, etc) is to apply a 'glue sizing' formula to the raw wood before staining or finishing. I recently finished the insides of drawers and the cabinets on some family heirloom pieces (they needed to be sealed because of smell). I used the glue size to cut down on the finish material I was using (General Finishes Enduro water-based poly).

HOW TO APPLY: Mix Titebond yellow wood glue ~8:1 with water (I've even used lower ratios). Apply to the wood with a foam roller or brush. Once it dries, sand with 220 or 400 grit to knock down the knibs created by the water. This is a really cheap way to 'prime' the surface. As always try this method on a test piece to see if it suits your needs.
post #37 of 138
Any tips for staining my subs with a dark ebonyish stain? I want the finish to be smooth and really dark, without being completely black, just really dark brown. I have not built my subs yet, (Dayton HO18's), so I could also use some suggestions on which type of wood would be best to use? I am thinking about using MDF with a real wood veneer, but, I have never done this before so Im not sure if this would be possible.
post #38 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Any tips for staining my subs with a dark ebonyish stain? I want the finish to be smooth and really dark, without being completely black, just really dark brown. I have not built my subs yet, (Dayton HO18's), so I could also use some suggestions on which type of wood would be best to use? I am thinking about using MDF with a real wood veneer, but, I have never done this before so Im not sure if this would be possible.

If you're going to be staining, be sure to use a sanding sealer before applying the stain. I like the cabinet grade ply (22/32) personally and it's generally the same price as MDF. I've done several projects with it (including stain) and it always looks pretty decent. MDF with a veneer would be really sweet too, but a lot more work and cost.
post #39 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

If you're going to be staining, be sure to use a sanding sealer before applying the stain.
FWIW, the cats at Minwax say to use a pre-stain conditioner, not a sanding sealer. They say to use the sanding sealer if you're not going to stain.
post #40 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

FWIW, the cats at Minwax say to use a pre-stain conditioner, not a sanding sealer. They say to use the sanding sealer if you're not going to stain.

*gorilla idiot edit. eek.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 11/24/12 at 6:02pm
post #41 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Me thinks their "conditioner" is very similar to a sanding sealer, heh. Either way, you will definitely want to put type of some type of conditioner/sealer before applying the stain, especially a darker color. Depending on your usage, some type of polyurethane coating post-stain might be a good idea too.

I believe sanding sealer is intended as a smooth base for applying a clear finish -- such as polyurethane -- on unfinished wood. It will prevent stain from absorbing into the wood and should not be used as a pre-stain conditioner.
post #42 of 138
Minwax Sanding Sealer is not at all close to Pre Stain Wood Conditioner! Definitely do not use sanding sealer and think you can get an even stain coat over it!

Soft woods like Maple, Birch, Pine, etc do not typically stain well. My recommendation if you want a dark/black stain would be to use a dye stain first (pick up a local Rockler/Woodcraft/Sherwin) then stain with a high quality stain (NOT MINWAX!!) like Zar or Sherwin Williams BAC stain. I match stains almost daily and can tell you there is a significant difference in Minwax and the other two products I mentioned. Don't waste your time/money on the Minwax dark stains! Their sanding sealer is a different story. It doesn't do bad for brush/roll application actually.
Edited by tgse3 - 11/26/12 at 6:02am
post #43 of 138
Thread Starter 
^ good to know. I have used the 'black oak' Minwax stain and had "meh" results with it. Next time I will try a Sherwin product, thanks for the heads up.
post #44 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

Hard woods like Maple, Birch, etc do not typically stain well. My recommendation if you want a dark/black stain would be to use a dye stain first (pick up a local Rockler/Woodcraft/Sherwin) then stain with a high quality stain (NOT MINWAX!!) like Zar or Sherwin Williams BAC stain. I match stains almost daily and can tell you there is a significant difference in Minwax and the other two products I mentioned. Don't waste your time/money on the Minwax dark stains!
This is timely information for me. I want a dark brown stain on some Baltic Birch plywood with a subtle reddish hue to it. So I should use a pre-stain conditioner, a dye stain, and then a high quality stain followed by the clear coat / poly?
post #45 of 138
You may or may not need the conditioner. I`m somewhat undecided about how necessary it is. The nice thing is at least its affordable. Chances are dye concentrate is less expensive at Woodcraft because typically they offer smaller sizes than SW does (quart would make a box for every AVS member!).
Sherwin's BAC Wiping stain Ebony base tinted w 2oz of black on top of black dye stain concentrate is your best shot at black stained box. If you wanted to take it a step further you could shade your poly coat w a couple drops of black dye also (dont get carried away with this though).
As far as clears go I like to spray lacquer most of all, but otherwise I`d do Minwax poly on top of Minwax Sanding Sealer.
post #46 of 138
For the uneducated like myself, why is a regular stain suggested after a dye stain?
post #47 of 138
It provides less transparency than dye stains do. Think of dye stains as "watered down" but heavily colored stains. They penetrate better into pores than traditional stains and dye the wood allowing your stain coat to achieve a sense of richness not attainable with most readily available stains. Dye stains help add depth to stained wood, but typically only get used in dark stain scenarios.
post #48 of 138
Thanks. It sounds like I need to get some TransTint dyes and a dark brown conventional stain from the local Rockler or Woodcraft and experiment on the many BB scraps I have.
post #49 of 138
Yep. Sanding sealer is like a clear primer. Sanding sealers can be shellac-based, lacquer-based, vinyl, etc. The glue-size trick I mentioned in an earlier post is a substitute for pre-stain conditioner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

I believe sanding sealer is intended as a smooth base for applying a clear finish -- such as polyurethane -- on unfinished wood. It will prevent stain from absorbing into the wood and should not be used as a pre-stain conditioner.

Edited by mobius - 11/25/12 at 12:29am
post #50 of 138
Birch, pine, and some maple plywood tends to look splotchy because it doesn't take stain/dye evenly. That's why you'd need to use a pre-stain conditioner or glue-sizing to 'equalize' the absorptiveness of the wood. The TransTint dyes that Stereodude mentioned are great. You can combine the colors to achieve the color you want. Check with a place like Woodcraft or Rockler or TransTint's website for further suggestions. If you're going with such a dark color you might consider read oak plywood to minimize the finishing issues. I haven't tried it yet, but I think luan stained and finished properly might make a good veneer for an MDF cabinet. It would be little more work perhaps, but it is cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Any tips for staining my subs with a dark ebonyish stain? I want the finish to be smooth and really dark, without being completely black, just really dark brown. I have not built my subs yet, (Dayton HO18's), so I could also use some suggestions on which type of wood would be best to use? I am thinking about using MDF with a real wood veneer, but, I have never done this before so Im not sure if this would be possible.
post #51 of 138
Any tips for using pre-stain conditioner? I bought some of the waterborne General Finishes Pre-Stain Conditioner. The directions say to cover the piece liberally and then wipe it off. Basically the same directions as their waterborne gel stains. That makes sense given that their Pre-Stain Conditioner is just an untinted gel stain. However, on my small 13.5" diameter circle test piece the TransTint dye mixture and especially the gel stain seems to have still soaked into the wood pretty unevenly. My guess is that I should have waited longer before wiping off the Pre-Stain Conditioner? Obviously on a large piece of wood the conditioner would dwell on the piece much longer than my small test piece.

Here's a quick snapshot of my two test pieces as they're drying prior to any clear coat.


Edited by Stereodude - 11/25/12 at 8:57pm
post #52 of 138
And this is the precise reason why the jury is still out on conditioners for me. I think too often the expectations are oversold and under delivered when it comes to conditioners. From the pictures it looks like the one on the right finished more evenly and achieved a more uniform finish.
Could be a couple of different things. I can't say I've ever used the General Finishes line so I am not as well versed in it as other lines. It could need to be left on longer as you mentioned or in need a 2nd coat of conditioner. Also it is not improbable that you left/put the dye stain on unevenly also. It's not impossible the General Finishes product is a slightly inferior stain either. I still will sing praises about the BAC Wiping Stain and Zar stains until someone can find me a better readily accessible option. Can I the issue would have been averted with those options...no, but it would at least eliminate one variable.
I am not a fan of gel anything either when it comes to stains for what it's worth. Typically the penetration is much less than that of naptha/spirits borne stains. Of the cabinet shops I service none of them use gel stains if that's any indication.
post #53 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

And this is the precise reason why the jury is still out on conditioners for me. I think too often the expectations are oversold and under delivered when it comes to conditioners. From the pictures it looks like the one on the right finished more evenly and achieved a more uniform finish.
Could be a couple of different things. I can't say I've ever used the General Finishes line so I am not as well versed in it as other lines. It could need to be left on longer as you mentioned or in need a 2nd coat of conditioner.
Thanks for the additional idea of a 2nd coat. It looks like I'll be making more test samples.
Quote:
I am not a fan of gel anything either when it comes to stains for what it's worth. Typically the penetration is much less than that of naptha/spirits borne stains. Of the cabinet shops I service none of them use gel stains if that's any indication.
Gel is probably not the right word. General Finishes doesn't call it a gel stain. That was my name for it since it's not a runny liquid like water.
post #54 of 138
I'm just talking out loud here, but my hesitations would be that the product is water based so generally speaking your penetration is less and grain raising is more pronounced. With it being birch I'm not as worried about the grain raising as I would with oak. This may or may not help, but if you have plenty of samples to try you could also try thinning one sample just a touch to see if that helps penetrate. The grain would in theory raise more that way, but since you're using soft wood it shouldn't be as noticeable. Like I said I haven't used this specific product, but can apply some general principles typically. Also you could try reducing your dye stain with alcohol instead of water also to see if that will provide you a more even finish.
post #55 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

I'm just talking out loud here, but my hesitations would be that the product is water based so generally speaking your penetration is less and grain raising is more pronounced. With it being birch I'm not as worried about the grain raising as I would with oak. This may or may not help, but if you have plenty of samples to try you could also try thinning one sample just a touch to see if that helps penetrate. The grain would in theory raise more that way, but since you're using soft wood it shouldn't be as noticeable. Like I said I haven't used this specific product, but can apply some general principles typically. Also you could try reducing your dye stain with alcohol instead of water also to see if that will provide you a more even finish.
What product in my process are you suggesting a I thin to see if it helps penetrate? The pre-stain conditioner?

Also, should I raise the grain of the piece with a damp cloth, wait for it to dry, and then sand it lightly with a fine grit like 320-400 before applying the pre-stain conditioner?

BTW, I thought birch was considered a hard wood.
post #56 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

What product in my process are you suggesting a I thin to see if it helps penetrate? The pre-stain conditioner?
Also, should I raise the grain of the piece with a damp cloth, wait for it to dry, and then sand it lightly with a fine grit like 320-400 before applying the pre-stain conditioner?
BTW, I thought birch was considered a hard wood.

I would have initially thinned the dye stain with alcohol if it were me. I typically am not wild about water anything unless great flexibility/low VOC's is needed (like architectural house paints). If you raise the grain then don't knock it down with a high grit paper. You actually close up the pores that way and cause it to not stain evenly. I would probably knock down the grain with 120ish.

It can actually be hard or soft wood technically depending on the species. It stains like a soft wood though.

I have never been to this website before, but this pretty well confirms my recommendation from post #45.
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f8/birch-ply-dark-stain-5326/

The nice thing about taking it to SW is you can literally drop off your samples, tell them what you want it to look like (take in a sample would be ideal), and come back when it is done and stain matches. I cannot stress how much easier and superior this option is to ever buying stain elsewhere. You'll pay a couple dollars more for the stain, but you will save more by having it work on the first try. (If all else fails with the General Finishes stain)
post #57 of 138
Just as a FYI to anyone out there. Duratex and cardboard (sonotube) is not a recipe for a smooth finish. The Duratex soaks into the cardboard, makes it swell (significantly like 1/4" over ~29.5") and messes everything up. The Duratex then seems to lock in the swelled size. One of my sonotubes had a ridge in the cardboard at a seam spiraling all the way around the whole tube so I sanded it down which left a gap. I filled the gap with drywall joint compound and got the enclosure nice and smooth. After spraying on the base coat of Duratex the cardboard swelled and climbed up over the joint compound and tore cracks in its own finish. I tried to touch it up with a foam brush before spraying the texture coat (I guess I'm an optimist), but it looks terrible. Unless something changes by tonight I'm going to be sanding down the sonotubes enough to more or less start over. That or I'm tossing them and starting over with new sonotubes. Either way this time I'll be using Bondo and black semigloss latex making sure I get a perfectly smooth finish first and only hitting them with Duratex for a texture coat after everything else is sorted out.

Here are some pictures of some of the swelling related defects:



Yes, in the last picture there are cracks completely though the Duratex and the drywall joint compound is showing through. mad.gif
post #58 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

I would have initially thinned the dye stain with alcohol if it were me. I typically am not wild about water anything unless great flexibility/low VOC's is needed (like architectural house paints). If you raise the grain then don't knock it down with a high grit paper. You actually close up the pores that way and cause it to not stain evenly. I would probably knock down the grain with 120ish.
It can actually be hard or soft wood technically depending on the species. It stains like a soft wood though.
I have never been to this website before, but this pretty well confirms my recommendation from post #45.
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f8/birch-ply-dark-stain-5326/
The nice thing about taking it to SW is you can literally drop off your samples, tell them what you want it to look like (take in a sample would be ideal), and come back when it is done and stain matches. I cannot stress how much easier and superior this option is to ever buying stain elsewhere. You'll pay a couple dollars more for the stain, but you will save more by having it work on the first try. (If all else fails with the General Finishes stain)
Thanks for the help. I ended up getting it all sorted out to my satisfaction. I left the pre-stain conditioner on longer and worked the dye a bit to get a reasonably consistent finish.
post #59 of 138
Thread Starter 
That's a shame man, but all of us here appreciate the info. That texture looks completely different than my roll on finish with a textured roller. Yours is a much smoother finish, which I suppose is to be expected. I'd like to experiment with a smooth roller next time.


Edited by Gorilla83 - 12/3/12 at 5:33am
post #60 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

That's a shame man, but all of us here appreciate the info. That texture looks completely different than my roll on finish with a textured roller. Yours is a much smoother finish, which I suppose is to be expected. I'd like to experiment with a smooth roller next time.
FWIW, I think you have a smoother finish than I have. Here's a close up of the texture + a ruler for scale.

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