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The 'Paint booth' discussion - Paint and Finishing questions - Page 3

post #61 of 138
12/3/12 at 10:46am
Thread Starter 
Interesting, that finish looks a lot closer to that of my Captivators.

Good discussion here guys! Keep the thoughts coming.
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post #62 of 138
12/3/12 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

That's a shame man, but all of us here appreciate the info. That texture looks completely different than my roll on finish with a textured roller. Yours is a much smoother finish, which I suppose is to be expected. I'd like to experiment with a smooth roller next time.

My 3 projects I've use Duratex roller grade on came out looking about like this. Looks really good to me. cool.gif

Stereodude, I know you must be mad.gif

One would assume that the stuff would react with cardboard about like it does with MDF. That's frustrating man.
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post #63 of 138
12/3/12 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

Stereodude, I know you must be mad.gif
One would assume that the stuff would react with cardboard about like it does with MDF. That's frustrating man.
Yes, I am definitely mad.gif

Right now I've got them in my makeshift paint drying oven since I can't sand them down until they're cured and I'd rather not wait a week. I put two space heaters in the smallest room in my house (a bathroom) and have them cranked full tilt. FWIW, the cardboard does seem to be shrinking. The outer cardboard overhang is half of what it was on the one before. I'm not sure what to expect when it's done "baking". I don't see how the various issues can resolve themselves though. I've got a quart of Bondo ready to go. I need to get some flat black exterior latex paint later.

Edit: after a few hours the temperature in my "drying oven" is holding pretty steady at 120F. I think I will shut it down in a few more hours and let them return to room temp.
Edited by Stereodude - 12/3/12 at 3:34pm
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post #64 of 138
12/3/12 at 5:21pm
Here is one of my roll on duratex projects:

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post #65 of 138
12/3/12 at 5:42pm
Thread Starter 
Haha, I also made a makeshift 'oven' but my room was a bit larger and my heaters were probably a bit smaller. I got the room up to 85ish, which seemed to help tremendously. smile.gif
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post #66 of 138
12/3/12 at 5:43pm
Thread Starter 
Nograve - that looks awesome!!
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post #67 of 138
12/3/12 at 5:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Haha, I also made a makeshift 'oven' but my room was a bit larger and my heaters were probably a bit smaller. I got the room up to 85ish, which seemed to help tremendously. smile.gif
I called no glory at 123F and have been slowly dialing back the heaters trying to hold it at ~120F. Interesting the cardboard has basically returned to its original size. It's got a little bit more to shrink, but it's real close now. Of course the finish still needs to be redone.

Edit: So after a few more hours in the "oven" and slowly returning to room temp the cardboard did return to it's original size. The Duratex is much harder now. Hopefully it will sand down nicely today after work when I attack it.
Edited by Stereodude - 12/4/12 at 4:17am
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post #68 of 138
12/3/12 at 7:57pm
When you guys do your wood filler/bondo or similar, do you jump straight to a fine grit sandpaper or do you do it in steps? What about between coats when priming/painting? For those of you who've used Duratex, are you sanding at all between coats?
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post #69 of 138
12/4/12 at 4:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

When you guys do your wood filler/bondo or similar, do you jump straight to a fine grit sandpaper or do you do it in steps?
It all depends on how thick you put your filler on. If it was put on real carefully with skill there's very little to sand so you can jump straight to the fine grit. If not, start with the coarse or you'll be there sanding forever.
Quote:
What about between coats when priming/painting?
I tend to follow the instructions. For something like a clear polyurethane I absolutely sand very lightly with something like 400 grit. For a latex paint, no. FWIW, I think it would be too soft to sand unless you really let it fully dry.
Quote:
For those of you who've used Duratex, are you sanding at all between coats?
Once you use Duratex you'll understand that this is a virtually impossible proposition unless you have a paint curing oven. Even when it's dry to the touch ready for the texture coat it's still pretty soft until it has cured. There's no way you could sand it IMHO between coats unless you were waiting for it to fully cure.
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post #70 of 138
12/4/12 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

For those of you who've used Duratex, are you sanding at all between coats?
The purpose of sanding is to de-gloss and to remove any texture before applying the next coat. You use DuraTex because you want texture.
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post #71 of 138
12/4/12 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

When you guys do your wood filler/bondo or similar, do you jump straight to a fine grit sandpaper or do you do it in steps? What about between coats when priming/painting? For those of you who've used Duratex, are you sanding at all between coats?

When I do bondo I use a lot of hardener. It starts to harden within 2-3 min of mixing. So what you do is apply until it's unworkable and then scrape off the excess w/ a sharp putty knife. This leaves very little buildup.

From there I go to my random orbital w/ 80 grit. There is no need to sand with a finer grit for Duratex. Working this way, I can bondo and be ready for finish in about 30 minutes for a simple box (took a lot longer for that Jack 212 above).
Edited by nograveconcern - 12/4/12 at 8:02am
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post #72 of 138
12/4/12 at 7:55am
Awesome guys, thanks for the advice. I assumed the sanding Duratex question was silly in multiple ways, but wanted to make sure.
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post #73 of 138
12/4/12 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

It all depends on how thick you put your filler on. If it was put on real carefully with skill there's very little to sand so you can jump straight to the fine grit. If not, start with the coarse or you'll be there sanding forever.
I tend to follow the instructions. For something like a clear polyurethane I absolutely sand very lightly with something like 400 grit. For a latex paint, no. FWIW, I think it would be too soft to sand unless you really let it fully dry.
Once you use Duratex you'll understand that this is a virtually impossible proposition unless you have a paint curing oven. Even when it's dry to the touch ready for the texture coat it's still pretty soft until it has cured. There's no way you could sand it IMHO between coats unless you were waiting for it to fully cure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The purpose of sanding is to de-gloss and to remove any texture before applying the next coat. You use DuraTex because you want texture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

Awesome guys, thanks for the advice. I assumed the sanding Duratex question was silly in multiple ways, but wanted to make sure.

Assume a 21-28 day cure time as is the case with 95% of acrylics.

Sanding for adhesion is done to create texture actually, thereby increasing surface area in addition to promoting hold out of your finish coat.
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post #74 of 138
12/4/12 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

Assume a 21-28 day cure time as is the case with 95% of acrylics.
DuraTex will fully cure in a couple of days if you heat cure it. Manufacturers do it with a kiln, I do it by leaving the cab in the summer sun for two days.
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post #75 of 138
12/4/12 at 8:42pm
Even regular old vehicle paint isn't completely cured for 2 months. Even after you bake it, it's still releasing solvents for almost 2 full months. It's on a super small level but it's still there.
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post #76 of 138
12/5/12 at 6:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

DuraTex will fully cure in a couple of days if you heat cure it. Manufacturers do it with a kiln, I do it by leaving the cab in the summer sun for two days.

I do see the data page indicates that. On paper I would be hesitant of a high build acrylic coating achieving full cure in a couple days, or pack/ship after a 30 minute bake time like they indicate. With that said I do rep the acrylic urethane coating that eD used for their cabinets, and the pack & ship time on it is minimal also. Coatings like this are out there, but they just are uncommon to 99% of board members. A typical industry standard for acrylics is 21-28 day cure. Obviously though since you apply this specific product Bill, you know the subtle nuances of it better than I.
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post #77 of 138
12/5/12 at 7:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

I do see the data page indicates that. On paper I would be hesitant of a high build acrylic coating achieving full cure in a couple days, or pack/ship after a 30 minute bake time like they indicate. With that said I do rep the acrylic urethane coating that eD used for their cabinets, and the pack & ship time on it is minimal also. Coatings like this are out there, but they just are uncommon to 99% of board members. A typical industry standard for acrylics is 21-28 day cure. Obviously though since you apply this specific product Bill, you know the subtle nuances of it better than I.
I've been using it for about 8 years now; AFAIK I was the first to recommend it to the DIY market, at least that's what their sales manager tells me. It may not be 100% cured after a couple of days in the sun, but I've never had any issues with placing cabs into service after that long of a cure. Many manufacturers use it, and one reason why is that they can ship product coated with it within a short time, and time is money.
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post #78 of 138
12/7/12 at 5:12am
I think I'm at last done with the sonotubes (I hope). I got the sonotubes smooth again. This time when sanding I was careful to not sand through the base layer of flat black latex paint anywhere. I vacuumed them off and painted the filled areas with the flat black exterior latex. After that dried I applied my spray grade Duratex with a stiff 3" paint brush to the entire sonotube and then used pieces of a plastic shopping bag to put texture on it. Basically I just followed the Duratex leather look instructions. I'll "bake" them some this afternoon / evening to harden them up so I can finally start assembly tonight or tomorrow.

Here's a quick shot of the texture:



The moral of the story seems to be that cardboard is not dimensionally stable and you need to seal it against moisture before you do anything to it. Subsequent things done to it can't cut through the moisture seal or you'll end up with all sorts of problems when coating it later with more paint or finishing products.
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post #79 of 138
12/7/12 at 5:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I think I'm at last done with the sonotubes (I hope). I got the sonotubes smooth again. This time when sanding I was careful to not sand through the base layer of flat black latex paint anywhere. I vacuumed them off and painted the filled areas with the flat black exterior latex. After that dried I applied my spray grade Duratex with a stiff 3" paint brush to the entire sonotube and then used pieces of a plastic shopping bag to put texture on it. Basically I just followed the Duratex leather look instructions. I'll "bake" them some this afternoon / evening to harden them up so I can finally start assembly tonight or tomorrow.
Here's a quick shot of the texture:

The moral of the story seems to be that cardboard is not dimensionally stable and you need to seal it against moisture before you do anything to it. Subsequent things done to it can't cut through the moisture seal or you'll end up with all sorts of problems when coating it later with more paint or finishing products.

Looks awesome! Great information for others on here as well, so thank you for sharing.

What product would you recommend to seal the surface? Black latex?
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post #80 of 138
12/7/12 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

What product would you recommend to seal the surface? Black latex?
The black latex worked well for me, but there might be better products out there. I'm not really sure since that's all I tried.
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post #81 of 138
12/7/12 at 12:14pm
sub'd

Now lets get some folks spraying Duratex with HVLP thats a nice finish too......
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post #82 of 138
12/7/12 at 12:17pm
I've used duratex with a spray gun lots of times. To be honest, you can get just as nice of a finish with a smooth roller than spraying it on but spraying takes half the time. It's looks great either way.
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post #83 of 138
12/7/12 at 12:28pm
N8DOGG, I'm still trying to decide what finish to use. Would you be able to share a pic or two? I really like the results John at AE did. He explains his process here: http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2989

Edit to add: You going the same direction Nick? I just realized you started that thread...that is you right?

Here's the build thread for those studio monitors, I think the finish looks pretty awesome...

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=701&start=0
Edited by robotbunny - 12/7/12 at 12:37pm
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post #84 of 138
12/7/12 at 12:37pm
If the duratex was the spray grade or thinned it might be that smooth, but most I've seen even with the smooth roller has more texture than Johns work.......

Has anyone used the spray grade with the roller? Seems like it would give a smoother finish but prob not as high a build.
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post #85 of 138
12/7/12 at 12:54pm
ya, that's what I've noticed too. BigmouthinDC had really nice results rolling his duratex for his 4pi, I don't see that texture on his.

http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=15168&prevloaded=1&&start=50

I'll be finishing seven speakers all at once, so spraying might be easier. Just don't have the HVLP...
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post #86 of 138
12/7/12 at 2:12pm
The degree of texture depends on the applicator, be it roller or spray. The finer the roller texture or gun orifice the finer the texture.
Quote:
I'll be finishing seven speakers all at once, so spraying might be easier. Just don't have the HVLP..
A drywall hopper gun works best. The Harbor Freight gun works well and usually sells for $19.95 or so. It's a constant airflow gun, so unless you have a huge air tank you want to install an air shut-off valve on the gun so it doesn't drain the tank during down time. Spraying does take practice, and uses more material than rolling. If I don't want it really thick I roll a coat or two for coverage, then spray a spatter coat if I want a spatter finish.
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post #87 of 138
12/7/12 at 2:25pm
I have to say this thread has been extremely informative. If the weather gods allow, I should be cutting MDF next Friday and starting to assemble some subs... Definitely considering Duratex and using some of the methods discussed in this thread. Thanks!
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post #88 of 138
12/7/12 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

ya, that's what I've noticed too. BigmouthinDC had really nice results rolling his duratex for his 4pi, I don't see that texture on his.
http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=15168&prevloaded=1&&start=50
I'll be finishing seven speakers all at once, so spraying might be easier. Just don't have the HVLP...

Big is not a normal human..... I think he could be a robot...
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post #89 of 138
12/7/12 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

N8DOGG, I'm still trying to decide what finish to use. Would you be able to share a pic or two? I really like the results John at AE did. He explains his process here: http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2989
Edit to add: You going the same direction Nick? I just realized you started that thread...that is you right?
Here's the build thread for those studio monitors, I think the finish looks pretty awesome...
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=701&start=0

No I don't have any pics, I use it at work for all sorts of stuff and don't usually care enough to take any pics lol It makes a nicer finish than the truck bedliner stuff does but not nearly as tough. to make it that smooth, I just thin it out with some reducer we have at work, though IMO, it scratches way to easy when thin. Johns work looks great, with the right air pressure, you can easily repeat his finish. Just takes a bit of practice. I'll be rolling on mine on my 2242H boxes, I only have a gallon left and that won't be enough if I spray it.
O and yes, it works fine to roll out the sprayable version, it just takes more coats. I usually used the fine foam rollers, they work great.
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post #90 of 138
12/7/12 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Big is not a normal human..... I think he could be a robot...

lol, maybe. He certainly has a eye for detail and is clearly skilled, beautiful speakers and theater. I PM'd him a few times during his build, a true gentleman.

Thanks, Bill. I do have a Graco airless X7, not sure if I can get a tip that could atomize the spray grade duratex well enough or not. Not sure I'd want to stick a $55 can of paint under it to try! lol.
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