Official OPPO BDP-105 Owner's Thread - Page 63

GSR,

You are correct in what you say. That post came out of anger of people saying things they don't know from an empirical stand point. The value of the player is another debate all together. My post was simply to state that there is a big difference in video and audio of the players. Purists would say the cost is worth it. Others would not.

I should not have come out so hard but I will stand by my statement that if people think there is NO difference at all between the players then they are stupid. That would be like denying fact and I don't care what the fact is, denying fact would be stupid for anyone for any topic, at any time.

Also, Ayre put considerable effort into the changes, not a small one but the purpose was only to say there is a difference and so for those debating about an Ayre vs. an OPPO then if you are a purist then go for the Ayre.

Elihu,
From your ISF training you must know the value of quantifiable test results.

Take video for example. What do you see in calibration charts evidencing better video performance from the Ayre?

(I'm assuming of course that you've taken due care to confirm proper video calibration for HDMI video from each, since there's no point in the comparison otherwise.)
--Bob

Do you want measurements and such or general overviews than can be debated? The video is very hard to debate because video is based on what I believe to be an exact science. Audio is more subjective so I am bound to more descriptives. Anything can be argued or disbelieved so that is why I stated in my post if you have specific questions just ask. If you could let me know if you are looking for the reasons I believe or for exact fact and I will respond.

I owned the Marantz UD7006. The picture and audio were pretty good, but the unit had lots of other issues and lacked features/flexability. I did a YouTube review of it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBSCgkZEmc8

I eventually sold it. It retailed for $1,000 and I had a hard time selling it for $575 (which was lower than dealer cost) just a few months later. I then got the Oppo 95. Both units retailed for $1,000, so they were in the same league as far as price, but the Oppo was a MUCH better performer. It was better built (quality wise), had much fewer issues, much better support, better configuration menus and flexibility, and a better sounding audio section. And lets not forget resale value! I was very disappointed in the Marantz.

Im shopping and not familiar with the UD7006, probably that years competitive model. The Marantz site has a "new" flag on the 7007 and as I said the exact same price. Was wondering if Marantz put $$$ in video/audio to make theirs comparable without the other features of the 105.

The record was set straight with the 95, which some replaced you guessed it an Ayre, dont get me wrong but your ISF certification doesn't mean much as for as your personal comments are concerned as no one called upon you to testify on the subject of picture quality. I'm glad you like your Ayre but you really sound pissed Oppo has released yet another great sounding "Audiophile" player and it doesn't wear a prestigious badge!

Sorry man the 95 became the Reference standard for True universal players and walked over many stand alones in the process and the 105 has one up it:eek:where that leaves Ayre hopfully designing a new player around the 105;)

I'm interested in your personal evaluation, in general terms, how you quantify the differences for both audio & video. Like i said, i'm not disagreeing with you, rather i'm curious to know from someone who had both units, what does one get for the 880% price increase. Thank you.

Doh!

Um, not sure which component you're saying has bad specs, but here are some of the specs for an Anthem Statement P5:

THD+N (225 W Into 8 Ω) 0.0007% at 1 kHz, 0.008% at 20 kHz
IMD 0.00019% (CCIF, 325 W into 8 Ω)
POWER BANDWIDTH 10 Hz to 150 kHz
(+0 -3 dB, 325 W into 8 Ω)
FREQUENCY RESPONSE 20 Hz to 20 kHz (+0 -0.15 dB),
5 Hz to 100 kHz (+0 -2 dB)

Does your sub have inputs for the preamp output, or can you connect your full range L and R front speakers to inputs on your sub?

Well okay, let's talk empirical.

Are the specs for the Ayre 880% better than for the Oppo? Because that's the price difference. How much better could the specs actually be, considering that the S/N ratio of the Oppo's DACs is 130 dB (to pick one example)? Specs are very empirical.

But suppose you don't care about specs. Then did you test both players in a double-blind setup, or at least single-blind, where you had no way to tell which player was the source for audio and video while making your judgments? Again, that would be empirical.

If what you did was to play the players yourself, knowing which was which, and knowing that one cost a lot more than the other, what makes you think you didn't fall prey to the cognitive fault exhibited in http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/04/should-we-buy-expensive-wine/ ?

Double-blind testing is important, lest you wind up a laughingstock like these guys: http://us.gizmodo.com/363154/audiophile-deathmatch-monster-cables-vs-a-coat-hanger.

Update: Got curious about the DX-5's specs, went over to the Ayre website, and, surprise, they don't *have* any specs posted. What they list in their "Specifications" is just features. For example, they list the available color spaces. Nothing about S/N, THD, IMD, slew rate, whatever. Just basically a data void. Talk about not being empirical. It's like a non-falsifiable theory. It also doesn't support multichannel analog output. You can of course bitstream over HDMI, but then some other undoubtedly expensive component will be responsible for decoding, in which case, of what use are the "mods" Ayre did to the Oppo they started with? They also removed 3D support, and the guy selling these things said in an interview that you can buy a mass-market player to watch Avatar, which seems kind of peevish/arrogant. They also seem to have removed 4k upsampling.
Edited by jimshowalter - 12/29/12 at 12:55am

There nothing in your original post to persuade people of the merits of your observations. Claiming you have a decent knowledge is not sufficient to render a informative critic or review that would interest people. Going negative against the lack of reviews concerning Ayre products in this Oppo thread is not reinforcing anything.

Not to veer too off topic, but this player dates from 2010, and Stereophile did do a review against it with measurements shown here. You can of course compare what Secrets of Home Theater measured here against audio performance.
These are nice comments against their player, but as stated its really questionable if there is any value compared to a recent BDP-105 as the poster wanted to make a go of it.

back to topic

+1
I am at around 350 hours of "burn in" (yes I believe) on the unit there have been dramatic improvements in soundstage, separation of instruments, bass & reduced treble harshness. I have a fairly modest system compared to some here (see below) but I have never heard my system sound this good. I had an extended listening session last night of flac's via JRiver/JRemote and was floored at the improvement from a few weeks ago. Powerful, wide presentation with definition and a black, black background.

Preamp Conrad Johnson Premier 14 (Tube)
Amp Conrad Johnson MF2500 (Solid State)
Speakers Rogers LS3/5A with AB1 Sub
Cables Nordost Red Dawn (RCA/Spkr), PS Audio AC-12 Power (P5), Shunyata Sidewinder VTX Power (Oppo)
Power PS Audio Perfect Wave Power Plant P5, PS Audio Soloist

I've read and participated in the OPPO forums here for years and I've never heard anyone claim that the Ayre is a rebadged OPPO. So consider that you may be abusing the wrong people.

We do have an Ayre forum here and your comments might (or might not) find a more sympathetic readership there.

Finally, note that the Ayre FAQ is adapted, with permission, from the Unofficial BDP-83 FAQ, which was built from the free contributions of many OPPO users. It's not as if we have displayed unkind feelings toward Ayre here.

-Bill

 

Agreed. Such audible differences would show up as very significantly different measurements. There'd be no doubt that the unit had 'changed' after xxx hours of use. People make the same sort of claims about interconnects too and these would be very simple to measure when brand new and after xxx hours of use - but whenever anyone does, the measurements show that nothing has changed. And if nothing has changed, then there can't possibly be any difference in the resulting sound. One possible explanation for this audio-myth having such longevity is that the manufacturers may well want you to believe that you cannot fully appreciate their product until after xxx hours of use - a period of time which will put the product outside its exchange/refund window ;)

I never said I think the changes are that pronounced, but a component can improve with time, I think most of it happens within a few hours. I don't think everyone would notice gradual changes over time either. But you seem to imply, if someone does notice they are ignorant, delusional or just fooled by the hi-end audio industry. Right?

Anyway, everyone has a right to their own opinion if from their own experience (imagined or not) or in your case it seems, all that matters is basic measurable specifications, if you can't measure a difference you can't hear it. People will argue this forever, enough people hear burn-in to give it merit, just because those who think they hear burn-in may not be engineers doesn't mean they are wrong!

I'm waiting for it to complete burn-in first

Styln

You are going to love it

Styln

The alluring but strangely unloved Audio theory, Setup and Chat is always available for non-OPPO audiophile issues. I don't know why people don't use it more often.

-Bill

Hi, all. My 105 had a little hiccup last night. I lost my FR channel and my Hsu subwoofer went dead after making a change in the X-over setting in the Speaker Configuration menu. I turned the unit on and off several times. Then I disconnected the power cable and that didn't work. Finally, I set the X-over to 40 Hz and that seemed to reset or restore the channels.

This all started when I disconnected my sub from the sub output on the 105 and reconnected the sub via the Left/Right highpass speaker level connectors on the back of the sub and reset my FR/FL on the 105 to LARGE. I did this to test bass performance from L/R channels vs sub output. I did not see improvement or change so I reconnected the sub to the sub output on the 105 and reset the L/R speakers to SMALL. Then I set the X-over to 150 Hz (I normally leave it at 80 Hz) and ran the test tone on the 105. The FR speaker and sub channel had no sound. I toggled the speaker Mix-Down from 5.1 to 7.1 and back again, and made sure the sub was ON in the Speaker Configuration screen, but these had no effect. Then I reset the X-over to 40 Hz and cycled the power, which worked.

Hey, glad that worked for you, too, Dave! At first I was sceptical regarding BubbleUPnP - it just sounds like a toy. But I tried many of the DLNA/UPnP android programs and this is the one, and the only one, that made the final cut. FYI, it has no problem picking up Asset UPnP or the Oppo as a server on my system.



Free Oppo beer?! Aswesome:D

Styln

Video is a digital signal over HDMI. It can absolutely be measured for accuracy.
While it is true that just because Oppo does well, doesn't mean that Ayre is not.
What it does mean, is that there is no way that the Ayre blows it away.

I have asked for facts but I hear crickets

- Rich

That looks nice. If only, there were an Apple version.
I am playing around with MonkeyMote which looks good and after I cure other issues, I will have a better idea of how well it works.

- Rich

 

 

For the component to "improve over time" it has to change. What is it that you believe changes?

 

 

 

Not really any of those. Listening tests are notoriously unreliable. If they are conducted more than a few moments apart, then our auditory memory lets us down because we just can't remember sounds for very long, so comparing one with another is very difficult. Similarly, there is the human psychological phenomenon known as 'expectation bias'. This means that if we believe an expensive component will make a difference, and we know the expensive component is being used, we expect it to 'sound better' and so it does. Same with burn-in. If we believe it makes a difference then we will hear a difference. Nobody is 'ignorant' or 'delusional' - it is just the way human beings work, physiologically and psychologically. Because we can't change the way we work, we need to devise other ways to appreciate differences between components that are more reliable than listening alone. One of these ways is to measure things and compare results. Another way is ABX testing. If you measure, or ABX a component that is supposed to "improve with age" you will find that nobody can reliably differentiate between the brand new component and the aged one.

 

 

Everyone has a right to an opinion so long as it is not presented as fact.  If someone says "I believe I can hear an improvement after a component has aged for xxx hours" that is one thing. It is a very different thing to say "Components improve with age". 

 

Yes, if you can't measure a difference, then you can't hear it!  All things you can hear can be measured. Not all things you measure can be heard. 

 

Because the people who say they can hear improvements after 'burn-in' are not engineers isn't what makes them wrong. What makes them wrong is that there is no scientific basis for that belief. If you subject their belief to even rudimentary scientific evaluation, it becomes clear that these electrical components do not change after they have been used for xxx hours. If they did change then the change would be measurable. If they don't change, then they cannot possibly 'sound better' after xxx hours can they? 

 

The people who say components change after burn-in can never tell you what exactly changes to account for the 'improvement' they hear. They just say "I can hear the difference". This way of explaining reality based solely on perception has been discredited for centuries - like when people used to say "I can see the sun goes around the earth, so it obviously does". 'Fraid not.

At least I will.

- Rich

As mentioned many times, the occasional reboot is required for network streaming with this player. Slowy, I'm experimenting with the options to improve the reliability of the system. Earlier in the week I changed to the energy saving power-off mode. I did this because a reboot was usually only required at the beginning of a listening session. Today I fired up the system and no reboot was required for the controller, BubbleUPnP, to render on the 105 Don't want to say the problem is solved, but fingers are crossed for an effective work-around. If it does resolve the problem, I'll be sure to report the bug to mother Oppo.

Styln

Double-blind it. That's all we're asking. Clearly you believe you can hear a difference (and nobody is stating that you don't believe that you hear a difference). Because you believe you can hear a difference, you should be able to detect that difference without knowing which component has been "burned in". If you're going to dismiss the lack of objective measurements, then all that's left is your subjective impressions, and the only way to verify that those aren't just you making stuff up is for your impressions to pass a basic test of validity.

If you dismiss all forms of testing, then you're not being scientific. (The acronym AVS stands for Audio Visual Science.) It's okay to be a mystic, but don't expect to be taken seriously.

The human capacity for self-delusion is almost limitless. For thousands of years, we wandered around in a fog thinking things like "bigger objects fall faster", because we hadn't clued into the idea yet of testing hypotheses. People still think eyewitness testimony is the gold standard (they "know" what they "saw" with their own eyes), when it turns out to be remarkably unreliable, as shown by objective, scientific, DNA testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_identification).

Now that we know about testability, we live in a world of seeming miracles, courtesy of the scientific method.

It's not really true that everyone has a right to their opinion. For example, a physician who still practiced phrenology because, in his opinion, it was beneficial would be driven out of the profession. Not all opinions have equal value. Some are complete hogwash. It's important to know how to distinguish fact from fiction.

We just got done with an election in which an entire political class deluded itself into not believing data from scientific polling, because their "pundits" were convinced of systemic bias. You know how well that worked out for them.

Audiophiles can't tell the difference between coathangers and Monster Cable in a single-blind test. That should make audiophiles step back and go whoa, what was I thinking? Instead, they redouble their efforts.

Someone will probably object that this is drifting off topic, but if you review the past couple hundred posts, a significant percentage of them involve unsubstantiated claims about unmeasured (and probably unmeasurable) characteristics of the Oppo 105 and various other components.

Moved my Musical Fidelity 3DCD to the bedroom system and gave the top audio system spot to the Oppo 83SE about 3 years ago. The 105 is even better and so much more versatile. My only complaints are that I love the look of the 3DCD and it's ease of use w/o a monitor. I wrote a couple of reviews comparing it to the 83SE and the BDP-95 in the Oppo 83/95 threads.

Oh, and don't think there will be some fantastic night/day difference in SQ, There won't be. It's really that the Oppo IS in that league, and the 105 is going in the direction I'm taking my system.

Still love the 3DCD, but no BDP-105 regrets at all,

Styln