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Official OPPO BDP-105 Owner's Thread - Page 95

post #2821 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardia View Post

they had fixed it back in Dec with a Firmware. But the latest Firmware reversed it back to the delay again..

I've used all of the publicly available firmware - releases and betas and the audio delay has never been totally fixed for me.
post #2822 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMD View Post

Can someone confirm for me if there is any difference in 2 channel audio quality based on the below input choices (and if there would be a #1 preference):

HDMI In
Optical In
Coaxial In

Thanks in advance

From reading this white paper - http://www.esstech.com/PDF/sabrewp.pdf - it would seem like there shouldn't be - especially between Optical and Coax since they are both SPDIF.
post #2823 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphader View Post

I've used all of the publicly available firmware - releases and betas and the audio delay has never been totally fixed for me.

Hah!! The Dec firmware fixed the lip sync for Optical and Coaxial inputs for me. The January Firmware reversed it.
post #2824 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphader View Post

Not really. The audio is already delayed, delaying it any further would only make it worse.

Forgive me, I thought you understood what I originally meant. I should have also added that you can advance the audio as well, not just delay it.. If you have used VLC before, this feature would be similar to "Track Synchronization" where you add or subtract an audio delay to every audio stream. I am quite certain no Bluray player has a feature like this at all; it is extremely useful for ripped and streamed video content.
post #2825 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Forgive me, I thought you understood what I originally meant. I should have also added that you can advance the audio as well, not just delay it.. If you have used VLC before, this feature would be similar to "Track Synchronization" where you add or subtract an audio delay to every audio stream. I am quite certain no Bluray player has a feature like this at all; it is extremely useful for ripped and streamed video content.

This makes the assumption that the Oppo has an inherent delay that is unnecessarily large and that could be reduced to nearly nothing so as to make the audio, originating from the TV, play in sync with Video on the TV that will never go through the Oppo. So the question is, why the significant audio delay in the Oppo and is that part of the design and the converter operation or can it be reduced? This, while realizing that the delay can never be less than zero; short of some sort of CERN physics trick that could disrupt the space-time continuum. eek.gif
post #2826 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevepow View Post

This makes the assumption that the Oppo has an inherent delay that is unnecessarily large and that could be reduced to nearly nothing so as to make the audio, originating from the TV, play in sync with Video on the TV that will never go through the Oppo. So the question is, why the significant audio delay in the Oppo and is that part of the design and the converter operation or can it be reduced? This, while realizing that the delay can never be less than zero; short of some sort of CERN physics trick that could disrupt the space-time continuum. eek.gif

My original statement made no such assumption. In fact, I was merely stating that given the Oppo's "inherent" ability to be a universal media player, it would behoove them to include an audio lip sync feature since audio soundtracks will not all be universally synchronized accurately.
post #2827 of 10055
I think about owning a BDP-105 in the near future. Currently I check the net thoroughly about this player.
One question I have which I could not find any answer is about the ability of the Oppo to play FLAC 5.1 music files like these from 2L:

http://www.klicktrack.com/2l/search?c=FLAC+96kHz+24bit+5.1+surround

thx in advance !
post #2828 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevepow View Post

This makes the assumption that the Oppo has an inherent delay that is unnecessarily large and that could be reduced to nearly nothing so as to make the audio, originating from the TV, play in sync with Video on the TV that will never go through the Oppo.

That is indeed the case, and with inputs such as ARC, not having unnecessarily large (and ever changing) inherent delays should be SOP. The Oppo clearly needs to be fixed.

Chris
post #2829 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retina4711 View Post

I think about owning a BDP-105 in the near future. Currently I check the net thoroughly about this player.
One question I have which I could not find any answer is about the ability of the Oppo to play FLAC 5.1 music files like these from 2L:

http://www.klicktrack.com/2l/search?c=FLAC+96kHz+24bit+5.1+surround

thx in advance !

I can play them from a USB drive and stream them from my PC.

post #2830 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real View Post

Just wondering how you can control with the Logitech server. Do you select it in the Oppo Home Menu?

It's all handled and done on the Android with the BubbleUPNP android app. With Bubble Settings you choose a library and a device.

I choose the Logitech Library and the BDP-105 device. Now all the music is controlled by the Android, is served by the Logitech Media Server and it plays on the Oppo.
post #2831 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphader View Post

That is indeed the case, and with inputs such as ARC, not having unnecessarily large (and ever changing) inherent delays should be SOP. The Oppo clearly needs to be fixed.

Chris

Agreed, this is primarily the reason I haven't pulled the trigger and be frustrated with a $1200 unit.
post #2832 of 10055
The Marantz website describes the HDAM circuit this way:
Quote:
The AV8801 further enhances audio quality by delicately handling all signals via the Marantz-own HDAMs in Current Feedback topology before being passed to the XLR outputs and separate power amp.

So does HDAM only apply to the XLR outputs?

Does the 8801 sound different or better than other AVR's capable of analog mode?

- Rich
post #2833 of 10055
First post--read all of the beta testers posts on the 105 in the 103 thread, and decided to spring for a 105.

Excuse me if this appears as a reply, I dont see where to post a new comment. Also tried to search the thread for the answer to my question, but it seems like the Search engine looks for an exact match rather than any word or partial strings. I'll figure that out with your help or a bit more experience.

My issue is that when I'm playing a CD and I turn on my TV and Direct TV box (one button turns them both on) the CD playback pauses or completely stops. This cant be as designed can it? I read a bunch about the "handshakes" the Oppo performs in the other thread, so I'm thinking this may be the issue.

The audio is currently RCA analog out to an integrated's RCA in. The video out is HDMI to the TVs HDMI in. Any thoughts on this issue would be appreciated. I'm off to see if I can make the Search functionality work better/at all.
post #2834 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgunn View Post

First post--read all of the beta testers posts on the 105 in the 103 thread, and decided to spring for a 105.

Excuse me if this appears as a reply, I dont see where to post a new comment.

I get it now, the Reply is to the Official Oppo bdp 105 owners thread. This is a reply to my post. I think I grok.
post #2835 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgunn View Post

First post--read all of the beta testers posts on the 105 in the 103 thread, and decided to spring for a 105.

Excuse me if this appears as a reply, I dont see where to post a new comment. Also tried to search the thread for the answer to my question, but it seems like the Search engine looks for an exact match rather than any word or partial strings. I'll figure that out with your help or a bit more experience.

My issue is that when I'm playing a CD and I turn on my TV and Direct TV box (one button turns them both on) the CD playback pauses or completely stops. This cant be as designed can it? I read a bunch about the "handshakes" the Oppo performs in the other thread, so I'm thinking this may be the issue.

The audio is currently RCA analog out to an integrated's RCA in. The video out is HDMI to the TVs HDMI in. Any thoughts on this issue would be appreciated. I'm off to see if I can make the Search functionality work better/at all.

Although this is off topic (OT) here, I will answer since I am an Oppo Beta tester wink.gif

This can be normal. If the receiver initiates an HDMI handshake there is little that can be done.
This is the nature of the beast.

- Rich
post #2836 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Although this is off topic (OT) here [...]

Thanks for the reply, Rich. Is it normal that sometimes it pauses and some times the CD stops?

And perhaps more importantly, how is a question about an Oppo 105 I own OT in the 105 owner's thread? Is there a FAQ I need to read?
post #2837 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgunn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Although this is off topic (OT) here [...]

Thanks for the reply, Rich. Is it normal that sometimes it pauses and some times the CD stops?

And perhaps more importantly, how is a question about an Oppo 105 I own OT in the 105 owner's thread? Is there a FAQ I need to read?

See the BDP-103 FAQ listed in my signature for general questions.

Bob P answers the "Why does playback stop when I turn off the TV?" question from time to time. Something to do with a naughty AVR. I forget the details, but he'll be around as soon as he wakes up. Night owl.

-Bill
post #2838 of 10055
^ ...Ah, the children of the night! What music they make!!...
--Bob
post #2839 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retina4711 View Post

I think about owning a BDP-105 in the near future. Currently I check the net thoroughly about this player.
One question I have which I could not find any answer is about the ability of the Oppo to play FLAC 5.1 music files like these from 2L:

http://www.klicktrack.com/2l/search?c=FLAC+96kHz+24bit+5.1+surround

thx in advance !

Yes, the 105 can play 5.1 FLAC 96KHz 24-bit music files -- both from an attached hard drive and over your in-house network.

People have reported some issues with a type of meta-data sometimes found in them which rejoices in the name "ID.3 tags", which are not really SUPPOSED to be in there, I gather. (They are actually for a different file format.) There are evidently easy ways to strip those with utilities if needed.

Quite a few of the posters here are happily using multi-channel FLAC files, so I expect some will pop up with answers if you need more details. Right now they are likely making popcorn to enjoy the lip-sync debate.
--Bob
post #2840 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgunn View Post

Thanks for the reply, Rich. Is it normal that sometimes it pauses and some times the CD stops?

And perhaps more importantly, how is a question about an Oppo 105 I own OT in the 105 owner's thread? Is there a FAQ I need to read?

My bad, I that I was on another thread.
What are you dining when it stops?

- Rich
post #2841 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Although this is off topic (OT) here, I will answer since I am an Oppo Beta tester wink.gif

This can be normal. If the receiver initiates an HDMI handshake there is little that can be done.
This is the nature of the beast.

That seems a bit too generous to Oppo and/or whomever implements their ASICs. There's no reason why turning *off* the TV needs to stop the DAC when listening to a CD or other non-video-related source. There's also very little reason why turning *on* the TV should cause the DAC to stop, as HDCP handshaking should not interfere with ordinary audio playback. Especially when the user doesn't even route audio over the HDMI outputs.

This even happens in "Pure Audio" mode!
post #2842 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMD View Post

Can someone confirm for me if there is any difference in 2 channel audio quality based on the below input choices (and if there would be a #1 preference):

HDMI In
Optical In
Coaxial In

Thanks in advance

I'm surprised you didn't mention the USB input, as it's the best. Optical and Coaxial both have clock domain problems that cannot be completely eliminated, thanks to the awful SPDIF protocol. The higher time-domain distortion when using SPDIF with the BDP-105 was noted in some magazine reviews. Of the three you listed, HDMI is clearly the best because it doesn't have the clock recovery issue, and it uses TMDS signalling, and is superior in all the other ways you would expect for a protocol that was design 20 years after SPDIF.
post #2843 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgunn View Post

. . . .

My issue is that when I'm playing a CD and I turn on my TV and Direct TV box (one button turns them both on) the CD playback pauses or completely stops. This cant be as designed can it? I read a bunch about the "handshakes" the Oppo performs in the other thread, so I'm thinking this may be the issue.

The audio is currently RCA analog out to an integrated's RCA in. The video out is HDMI to the TVs HDMI in. Any thoughts on this issue would be appreciated. I'm off to see if I can make the Search functionality work better/at all.

First of all, welcome to AVS and to this thread!

HDMI is not exactly "user friendly", and at least part of your problem is due to this.

HDMI is an end to end protocol with copy protection. That means any time the set of devices CHANGES in the currently active HDMI chain, there has to be a new "handshake" to reset the HDMI chain to the new configuration. The player pauses playback during an HDMI handshake so that you don't miss content. You wouldn't have been able to hear the content anyway (even over your Analog audio connection) as audio and video get muted during a handshake (while copy protection is re-established). If you check the time code display in the Front Panel you'll see that playback is truly not advancing, rather than play continuing with no audio output.

So turning the TV ON/OFF while it is connected via HDMI will result in a new handshake. The minimum time for a handshake is about 2 seconds due to delays built into the handshake spec (designed to give even slow devices a chance to react).

Now that said, PLAYBACK SHOULD NOT STOP. It should PAUSE and then resume in a couple seconds. If you have a repeatable case where playback of a CD is STOPPING due to turning the TV ON/OFF (i.e,. the time code goes away in the Front Panel display and the player is now in STOPPED state) please write up what's happening -- including how things are connected -- and email that to OPPO Tech Support. NOTE: There is a known bug where SACD playback can Stop due to an HDMI handshake in certain configurations, but that should not be affecting CD playback.

To avoid all this, a lot of folks leave their TV ON during music playback and use Pure Mode (Pure button, upper left on the remote) to blank the video output.



There is another potential problem which can cause loss of audio when you turn the TV OFF -- although it should not result in the player switching to STOPPED state.

The root cause is a bug in the AVR which is triggered by a behavior in the TV when it is turned OFF. The bug in the AVR is that it is not properly detecting the TV really has been turned OFF, and so it tries to get copy protection to talk to the TV -- which can't happen since the TV is OFF. (Technically this is a bug in "repeater processing" in the HDMI implementation in the AVR.) Check the owner's thread for your AVR, because this should be a common complaint and there may even be a firmware update for the AVR to fix it.

The behavior in the TV that triggers this -- and the reason it doesn't happen using that AVR with *EVERY* TV -- is that many modern TVs keep their last-used HDMI input "live" even while the TV is supposedly "OFF". The bug in the AVR is that it can't distinguish the case of the HDMI connection being live but the TV actually being OFF.

The two most common reasons TV do this is in support of HDMI CEC (remote control of one device from another via HDMI), and HDMI Audio Return Channel (ARC).

Since you have the DirecTV and the TV itself both turning on together, it is possible that you are actually using HDMI CEC to do that, or you may simply have it enabled even though your are not using it.

To CHECK if this is the problem, temporarily DISCONNECT the HDMI cable from the AVR to the TV, and now see if your CD playback works normally. If it does, then you know the inability to get audio to pick up again after the TV is turned OFF (and after the couple seconds while HDMI gets its act together) is due to this confusion in the AVR.

If this is the problem, there are several things to try. First, see if you can turn off HDMI CEC stuff in both the TV and the AVR. This may be called some random marketing name, but again, it has to do with devices turning on/off automatically or changing inputs automatically because of something being done on some other HDMI device. For some TVs HDMI CEC (and often also ARC) may only be implemented on one of their HDMI inputs. In which case the easiest way to disable that stuff is to switch to using some other HDMI input on the TV (again this is for the HDMI path from the AVR to the TV).

Failing all that, another common workaround is to remember to switch the TV to a DIFFERENT HDMI input (perhaps one that's not even cabled) BEFORE you power off the TV. Since the HDMI input from the AVR is no longer the last-used input, the TV may let it shut down fully when you now power off the TV.

Again, this is all in aid of getting the audio to come BACK after you turn off the TV. There will still be the couple seconds handshake pause when you change the status of the TV, but the audio SHOULD come back after that. If it doesn't, then working around this type of bug in your AVR (or getting a firmware fix for the AVR) may be just the ticket.



Come to think of it, your issue with the player STOPPING when this happens could be due to enabling HDMI CEC in the OPPO. I.e., it is getting a Stop command from either the TV or the AVR.

You can disable HDMI CEC in the OPPO's own Setup menu (Setup > Device Setup).
--Bob
post #2844 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Baker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Although this is off topic (OT) here, I will answer since I am an Oppo Beta tester wink.gif

This can be normal. If the receiver initiates an HDMI handshake there is little that can be done.
This is the nature of the beast.

That seems a bit too generous to Oppo and/or whomever implements their ASICs. There's no reason why turning *off* the TV needs to stop the DAC when listening to a CD or other non-video-related source. There's also very little reason why turning *on* the TV should cause the DAC to stop, as HDCP handshaking should not interfere with ordinary audio playback. Especially when the user doesn't even route audio over the HDMI outputs.

This even happens in "Pure Audio" mode!

Playback is Paused during an HDMI handshake to avoid missing content you wouldn't be able to hear or see anyway due to muting imposed until copy protection decides it is happy again.
--Bob
post #2845 of 10055
Hi Retina, Bob,

I am playing FLAC 5.1 from 2L over my home network and use the 105 as a DMR
PC > JRiver Media Center 18 sending NAS stored files to OPPO via a wired network
No lag/hiccups whatsoever, brilliant !

I am also hooked by USB for some gap-less playing (neither my Onkyo 818 nor the Oppo 105 are accepting gap-less playback through DLNA), but did not find any difference that my ears can catch. I have some dropouts with the USB connection on high bit rates (24/192), but my PC is rather old and may not be up to the task...
I'll wait for the update on DSD through USB to eventually upgrade it. Any development on this?

So far the experience is very good and I just regret that I did not buy an Oppo product before this one wink.gif.
Thank you Bob for all the good explanations

Best
Kami
post #2846 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Playback is Paused during an HDMI handshake to avoid missing content you wouldn't be able to hear or see anyway due to muting imposed until copy protection decides it is happy again.
--Bob

Why does a directv box not have this problem...if I switch my tv from the dtv input to the oppo while still listening to the analog audio from the dtv box...when I then switch back to the dtv input on the tv there is no pause in the audio? Isn't hdmi handshaking re-occuring on the dtv box as well?
post #2847 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevepow View Post

I can see I am not the only one having trouble understanding the A/V sync issues. Maybe Bob can net it out for us. Further delay of the already delayed audio will not help with darkphader's issue ^^^^^ though, and I don't see how the Oppo could possibly fix that.

I'm afraid there is no easy way to lay this out. The situation is complicated by the cabling choices you make for audio and video, whether you are playing SD or HD content, your choice of output resolution, and whether you are playing shiny discs and media files vs. whether you are using one of the digital Inputs.

You will have the LEAST problems using Analog audio (including the Headphone jack) or HDMI LPCM.

If you find audio is ahead of video, I recommend you try 75ms added audio delay external to the player.

Audio BEHIND video should only ever be happening when using one of the digital Inputs (e.g., the HDMI Inputs). If you are seeing audio BEHIND video when playing a shiny disc or media file, then the odds are excellent this is, in fact, an error already in the content you are playing. (It happens -- rather a lot, actually.)

Of course if audio is BEHIND video, adding additional audio delay will just make things worse.

OPPO is working on the remaining error cases.
--Bob
post #2848 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenario View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Playback is Paused during an HDMI handshake to avoid missing content you wouldn't be able to hear or see anyway due to muting imposed until copy protection decides it is happy again.
--Bob

Why does a directv box not have this problem...if I switch my tv from the dtv input to the oppo while still listening to the analog audio from the dtv box...when I then switch back to the dtv input on the tv there is no pause in the audio? Isn't hdmi handshaking re-occuring on the dtv box as well?

Most of the channels available on DirecTV are not copy protected. It's also typical for cable/satellite set top boxes to give preference to the Analog outputs -- at the expense of having to do a Two-stage handshake when using HDMI audio (i.e., video only, and then video+audio).
--Bob
post #2849 of 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Most of the channels available on DirecTV are not copy protected. It's also typical for cable/satellite set top boxes to give preference to the Analog outputs -- at the expense of having to do a Two-stage handshake when using HDMI audio (i.e., video only, and then video+audio).
--Bob

But there are no channels on the oppo...and if there is no disc loaded then why would copy protection come into play? Why not then give the preference to the audio, after all, the 95/105 are the audiophile versions?
post #2850 of 10055
^ You'll find we are not very good at "why don't they do it differently?" questions here. It never hurts to write up change requests and email them to OPPO Tech Support. They DO get taken seriously.
--Bob
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