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Official OPPO BDP-105 Owner's Thread - Page 12

post #331 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobcfla View Post

Originally Posted by djkiwi [/B]
If people can't notice the difference between the BDP 105 and the Panasonic 500 then two things are going on:
1. Their sensory perceptions are incapable of differentiation.
This isn't meant as an insult. .
2. Their system is incapable of differentiation.
Originally Posted by thorix[/B]
b) according to my experience there is in most cases a common understanding what sounds good and natural, exccluding 2 specific types of people. The first category are those who do not care, which are more and more folks who grew up with mp3.
Happy Thanksgiving!
I enjoy learning from this forum, and appreciate the hard work and knowledge of our mentors here, which has helped me be prepared for my new toy. which HAS arrived. I also agree with much of what both gentlemen above shared-as opinions. On top of what they stated is the likelihood that many users out here do not have signal interconnect and speaker cables good enough to pass the signal well enough intact to be fully appreciated--or subjectively compared.
I'll offer my comparative opinion from a different direction, for those who have not had a 95, and wonder if the 105 is worth the price and trouble. I received mine just in time for being off for 5 days so I will have time to warm it up properly, and exercise all the functions I have been dying to try out. No secrets here--I am stoked, and early on, after my first listen to redbook CDs, favorite SACDs and a few BRD movies, to me it is wonderful! I LOVE the 105. I will tell you why.
The new 105 so far, clearly sounds more dynamic, powerful, cleaner, warm (full--NOT lean), smooth, and has deeper and cleaner bass than anything I have heard in my dedicated theater room. I could not be happier with its purchase, with the caveat I have never owned a player over $1200. As an old electronics designer, I also know what literal "burning in" means, and believe it is not the same as the improvements gained from letting a system operate over time, with the cumulative effects of the capacitors forming, and other nuance-critical components becoming more stable with use. You do not have to believe that, but like better wire insulation, rotation, and metallurgy, it will make a difference in the sound. And I look forward to the additional improvements.
I did not have the luxury of having a 95 to compare my new 105 to, but have been listening to very good (but not well heeled) stereo for a very long time. I started young on tubes, then McIntosh, Marantz, PS Audio, and still enjoy turntable analog. After 25-30 years of reading Absolute Sound and Stereophile, I think I can hear, and know what sounds good to me, in MY system. which is important, and is totally subjective. I use primarily Audioquest (with batteries) interconnectl cables for my more critical inputs, and Kimber Heroes on the lessor inputs like surround and VCRs. I use Audioquest Rocket 88 Bi-wiring to the Maggie 1.6 QRs and Transparent for the others. I wanted the new 105 so I can get away from the additional electronics--pre-pro, external DACs, and more cables, etc, which all affect the sound of whatever comes out of the OPPO. Any and all electronics AND wire affects the signal, just depends on how, and how much. I will find out this weekend how much my prepro affects it by going around it directly to the power amp. My perspective includes my older NAD 7ch T163 Tuner pre-pro, and matching NAD 7ch T973 power amp, into pairs of Magnapan front MG1.6QRs, surround MG MC1s, rear surround MG 12QRs, and center MG CC3, all run full range. Plus a Velodyne 10" SW is set for roll off at 60 Hz. The flat screen is a Smart 60" Samsung 6100. My amplification is older but sounds clean and powerful at my budget level. My old Sony BDP NS999ES was about equal, and different, but not better than the Oppo 83, and far better than my older Denon. I have used most of the digital inputs thru a DacMagic, and for computer USB output FLAC and WAV, both at home and RV travel. I purchased the 105 so I can feed all my digital including Direct TV thru it and controlling the volume to the power amp. The room does not require a lot of bass control so I do not need that complication.
BTW, one other gain from deleting a 7.1 ch pre-pro is cutting the price and signal loss of 8 more good cable interconnects, which is considerable, easily more than the cost of the 105.
My one unknown is how to deal with my turntable phono preamp, as I do not think the concept of ADDA is cool for perfectly good HQ analog if I give up the analog part of the pre-pro?
Any suggestions other than living with the pre-pro?
Astronomertoo

Thank you!
post #332 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Thanks zoomin ...it seems to have the same bit-rate at Spotify (320Kbps) but for free smile.gif ! Paid subscriptions eliminate commercials(which don't bother me much btw) and provide unlimited song play and downloads. Cool!
I wish Oppo could really help us out here, PLEASE Oppo???

I've already asked - "No plans to integrate Mog" was the answer.

I think the Roku Stick has Mog - too bad I can't get one in Canada at this time frown.gif
post #333 of 10154
Well, I picked up a 105, a Sony XBR HX950 TV and an emotiva power amp all within a day of each other and I have some fun coming up. The TV is the single nicest PQ I have ever seen. I was looking at the vt50, elite and e8000 but I'm glad I got the Sony. I only mention it because I didn't think it was a good decision replacing my 5 year old relatively expensive and still working Sony but...yep it was.

I originally picked the 93 up over the 95 because the difference wasn't enough for the price and used the money on a different external DAC anyway. I'm already liking the 105 quite a bit. I also just picked up an Audio-GD ref 5.32 DAC which I ordered the day before I knew about the 105. I'll be comparing the 2 and am hoping to just sell the basically NIB ref-5. I've picked up quite a few dedicated 'special' audio components lately and I'm suddenly in the mood to simplifying everything down to only a few carefully chosen components.
post #334 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfillion View Post

Hello all,
I have also the Audeze LCD-2 headphone and I would like to know if the amp has enough power to drive them ? From what I read it's borderline.
Thank you

I do not stream music or movies at this time with the player and is not the main reason why I purchased the 105, so take that into consideration. My experience with my LCD-2s is that the 105 can drive Redbook CDs and stereo SACDs/DVD-As fine at about an 85 volume level. (With "fine" for me being that my ears will be ringing if I listen at that level of listening for any extended periods of time.)

Switching over to DVD and Blu ray movie discs with 5.1 sound fields or above is more problematic for me. At the full 100 level, the volume "just about" equals the 85 level that I enjoy listening at with CDs. I don't notice any distortion at this full volume level, but wish I could go higher as needed.

(Listening to a few mono or stereo DVDs has also been a satisfactory listening experience, but I tried out a few lossless Blu rays with mono and stereo soundtracks and the volume level is again just slightly lower than what I would want.)

I sent Oppo an e-mail asking for a fix to increasing the output voltage in the headphone amp and they responded that there might be a software solution made available which, however, could decrease accuracy and may introduce artifacts. They also stated that a hardware solution would be the better solution.

I'd assume that listening preferences among users will vary. What may be fine for my old (56 year) ears might not translate as well for a person in their twenties and vice versa.

I'm going into the second week of owning the 105 and I'm greatly enjoying the player for what it gives me. One of my main concerns is how well the headphone amp operates and I will continue to focus on that aspect of the player for the next three weeks at which time I will have to decide to either trade down to the 103 and find another alternative to drive my LCD-2s or decide that the 105 is good enough to satisfy me in the headphone category. At this point, I've ended each night with a listening of a different CD on the 105 and have come away with a very favorable impression.
post #335 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hikmer View Post

I did pull the trigger and am auditioning both, the 105 is clearly a step up in dynamics and bottom end. There isn't even a need for me to A/B the units, it is really apparent very quickly. However, I am still finding it hard to separate with my outboard DAC...both Oppo models are great transports.

Man, that makes it harder. 4K is looming large -- I can justify $500 as a bridge to the Oppo native 4K player when it gets here in 2016, but $1200 is hard.
Are you running analog MCH for surround or letting your DAC do the heavy lifting? If analog MCH -- how is the spacial alignment? Audessy is giving me
such a sweet 3D soundstage with HDMI out that I really don't use the analog out with its tonal superiority. 2.1 stereo is sweet, nearly moving coil cartridge sweet,
but I lose the enveloping soundstage when I go MCH analog. Darned shame.

So does the 105 get it right in MCH analog?
post #336 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Don't we all! There's nothing like a new OPPO release to start the adrenalin racing. Can they really have pulled it off -- AGAIN? At this price? biggrin.gif
Seriously though, a lot of casual readers can skim through statements like that and mistakenly believe the evidence is already in, when, of course, it simply isn't yet.
Just trying to limit the level of panic here while we await more completely arbitrary and subjective opinions, urh, solid objective facts. biggrin.gif
--Bob

Over on the anticipation thread, someone simply asked Oppo about it, and they said:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428214/official-oppo-bdp-103-bdp-105-anticipation-thread/1950#post_22548714

and:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428214/official-oppo-bdp-103-bdp-105-anticipation-thread/1950#post_22548788

To summarize:

1) DAC stacking can, in theory, increase signal-to-noise ratio.
2) DAC stacking can, for sure, increase current.
3) DAC stacking can, in practice, introduce problems.
4) Oppo says, quote: "The benefit of DAC stacking in the BDP-95 vs BDP-105 was virtually nonexistent".
5) Until we see a review comparing objective measurements between the 95 and 105 (akin to http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/oppo-bdp-93/oppo-bdp-93-bdp-95-on-the-bench), the entire discussion is speculative.
6) Oppo is known for being very very careful, and has a perfect track record of doing better in every release. It is highly unlikely they would wait two years, and then release something that has worse performance than the previous model. They'd rather not add a feature than introduce a regression in existing capabilities.

If someone already owns a 95 and is looking for reasons not to upgrade to a 105, they can certainly use the lack of DAC stacking as justification, if that makes them feel better.

I've emailed audioholics asking them to do a 95 vs. 105 comparison.

I should probably mention this quote:

"These experiments resulted in a dynamic range requirement of 118 dB (non-amplified music), 124 dB (amplified music) for the professional, and 106 dB for the high-quality consumer playback system."

That's from a peer-reviewed paper, "Dynamic Range Requirements for Subjective Noise Free Reproduction of Music", presented at AES 69th Convention, 1981, May 12-15. Good paper--I bought a PDF reprint of it years ago.

As ehlarson said on the anticipation thread: "The ES9018 has specs of 128dB SNR in 8 channel mode. 133dB in stereo mode. If 110dB is inaudible what would 128dB be?"
Edited by jimshowalter - 11/23/12 at 4:18pm
post #337 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimshowalter View Post

Over on the anticipation thread, someone simply asked Oppo about it, and they said:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428214/official-oppo-bdp-103-bdp-105-anticipation-thread/1950#post_22548714
and:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428214/official-oppo-bdp-103-bdp-105-anticipation-thread/1950#post_22548788
To summarize:
1) DAC stacking can, in theory, increase signal-to-noise ratio.
2) DAC stacking can, for sure, increase current.
3) DAC stacking can, in practice, introduce problems.
4) Oppo says, quote: "The benefit of DAC stacking in the BDP-95 vs BDP-105 was virtually nonexistent".
5) Until we see a review comparing objective measurements between the 95 and 105 (akin to http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/oppo-bdp-93/oppo-bdp-93-bdp-95-on-the-bench), the entire discussion is speculative.
6) Oppo is known for being very very careful, and has a perfect track record of doing better in every release. It is highly unlikely they would wait two years, and then release something that has worse performance than the previous model. They'd rather not add a feature than introduce a regression in existing capabilities.
If someone already owns a 95 and is looking for reasons not to upgrade to a 105, they can certainly use the lack of DAC stacking as justification, if that makes them feel better.
I've emailed audioholics asking them to do a 95 vs. 105 comparison.
I should probably mention this quote:
"These experiments resulted in a dynamic range requirement of 118 dB (non-amplified music), 124 dB (amplified music) for the professional, and 106 dB for the high-quality consumer playback system."
That's from a peer-reviewed paper, "Dynamic Range Requirements for Subjective Noise Free Reproduction of Music", presented at AES 69th Convention, 1981, May 12-15. Good paper--I bought a PDF reprint of it years ago.
As ehlarson said on the anticipation thread: "The ES9018 has specs of 128dB SNR in 8 channel mode. 133dB in stereo mode. If 110dB is inaudible what would 128dB be?"
This brings a question to mind......... it seems Oppo is going back on their once thought superior stacking scenario. Wasn't the same information and theory available to them back when they were designing the 83SE and 95? Why has it suddenly become a questionable practice to stack DACs when it was the preferred method just one model release ago?
post #338 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimshowalter View Post

Over on the anticipation thread, someone simply asked Oppo about it, and they said:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428214/official-oppo-bdp-103-bdp-105-anticipation-thread/1950#post_22548714
and:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428214/official-oppo-bdp-103-bdp-105-anticipation-thread/1950#post_22548788
To summarize:
1) DAC stacking can, in theory, increase signal-to-noise ratio.
2) DAC stacking can, for sure, increase current.
3) DAC stacking can, in practice, introduce problems.
4) Oppo says, quote: "The benefit of DAC stacking in the BDP-95 vs BDP-105 was virtually nonexistent".
5) Until we see a review comparing objective measurements between the 95 and 105 (akin to http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/oppo-bdp-93/oppo-bdp-93-bdp-95-on-the-bench), the entire discussion is speculative.
6) Oppo is known for being very very careful, and has a perfect track record of doing better in every release. It is highly unlikely they would wait two years, and then release something that has worse performance than the previous model. They'd rather not add a feature than introduce a regression in existing capabilities.
If someone already owns a 95 and is looking for reasons not to upgrade to a 105, they can certainly use the lack of DAC stacking as justification, if that makes them feel better.
I've emailed audioholics asking them to do a 95 vs. 105 comparison.
I should probably mention this quote:
"These experiments resulted in a dynamic range requirement of 118 dB (non-amplified music), 124 dB (amplified music) for the professional, and 106 dB for the high-quality consumer playback system."
That's from a peer-reviewed paper, "Dynamic Range Requirements for Subjective Noise Free Reproduction of Music", presented at AES 69th Convention, 1981, May 12-15. Good paper--I bought a PDF reprint of it years ago.
As ehlarson said on the anticipation thread: "The ES9018 has specs of 128dB SNR in 8 channel mode. 133dB in stereo mode. If 110dB is inaudible what would 128dB be?"

From the link you provided on Oppo's response "The benefit of DAC stacking in the BDP-95 vs BDP-105 was virtually nonexistent, and this new implementation allows us to have separate volume controls for the headphone output and analog outputs." I am trying to recall if anyone challenged Oppo's assessment.smile.gif

I am pretty sure Audioholics will put the BDP-105 through the same gaunlet that they exposed the BDP-95 to. If I had to speculate (which I shouldn't fall prey to) the BDP-105 may in deed measure out better than the BDP-95, but the results will not be audible.biggrin.gif

Boy do I love this hobby.smile.gifbiggrin.gif
post #339 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

This brings a question to mind......... it seems Oppo is going back on their once thought superior stacking scenario. Wasn't the same information and theory available to them back when they were designing the 83SE and 95? Why has it suddenly become a questionable practice to stack DACs when it was the preferred method just one model release ago?

You may be right on this point, but the superior stacking scenario was of benefit going from the SE to the BDP-95. There are design and hardware changes in the BDP-105 that seem to have overcame this requirement in the BDP-105. The BDP-105 seems to be an evolution and in some areas a revolution of the BDP-95.smile.gif

The only people questioning the practice of stacking DACs are some of the posters on this thread and the anticipation thread. Oppo evidently thought otherwise to this practice in the implementation of the BDP-105.smile.gif
post #340 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

From the link you provided on Oppo's response "The benefit of DAC stacking in the BDP-95 vs BDP-105 was virtually nonexistent, and this new implementation allows us to have separate volume controls for the headphone output and analog outputs." I am trying to recall if anyone challenged Oppo's assessment.smile.gif
I am pretty sure Audioholics will put the BDP-105 through the same gaunlet that they exposed the BDP-95 to. If I had to speculate (which I shouldn't fall prey to) the BDP-105 may in deed measure out better than the BDP-95, but the results will not be audible.biggrin.gif
Boy do I love this hobby.smile.gifbiggrin.gif


LOL:rolleyes:biggrin.gif
post #341 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimshowalter View Post

As ehlarson said on the anticipation thread: "The ES9018 has specs of 128dB SNR in 8 channel mode. 133dB in stereo mode. If 110dB is inaudible what would 128dB be?"

I've always been surprised by the large majority of so-called hifi audio enthusiasts who go off the deep end over specs.

For one thing, exactly which spec should they focus on?

To me, just listen.

There'll either be a noticeable difference, or there won't.

e.g. I've got two pre-amps that have very very good analog volume controls.

When I get an OPPO 105, that'll be a key thing I'll try. Namely compare the 105's digital volume control to a very very good analog volume control.

No matter what conclusion I reach, it's never a permanent conclusion for me, as I have a very long attention span and a habit of revisiting things that I've tried in the past.
post #342 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

This brings a question to mind......... it seems Oppo is going back on their once thought superior stacking scenario. Wasn't the same information and theory available to them back when they were designing the 83SE and 95? Why has it suddenly become a questionable practice to stack DACs when it was the preferred method just one model release ago?

The Secrets Review has some discussion of this. Apparently stacking was leading to PC board layout problems with the new inputs the 105 supports. This led Oppo to take other design approaches such as improving the power supply, separating some circuits etcetera.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/universal-players/universal-players-reviews/oppo-bdp-105-universal-player/page-2-the-design.html
post #343 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

To me, just listen.
There'll either be a noticeable difference, or there won't.

Alas this opens up a whole different set of problems.
post #344 of 10154
Just subscribing to this thread. I have a 95 I love. Don't see a "need" for the 105, but perhaps. Reading with interest.

~Bob
post #345 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

This brings a question to mind......... it seems Oppo is going back on their once thought superior stacking scenario. Wasn't the same information and theory available to them back when they were designing the 83SE and 95? Why has it suddenly become a questionable practice to stack DACs when it was the preferred method just one model release ago?

A legitimate question, and I had kind of the same reaction. But at the time, they had a different design in other parts of the circuit, plus they could demonstrate a clear advantage of the 95 over the SE. It wasn't spin. But they may have learned how to do things even better since then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

You may be right on this point, but the superior stacking scenario was of benefit going from the SE to the BDP-95. There are design and hardware changes in the BDP-105 that seem to have overcame this requirement in the BDP-105. The BDP-105 seems to be an evolution and in some areas a revolution of the BDP-95.smile.gif
The only people questioning the practice of stacking DACs are some of the posters on this thread and the anticipation thread. Oppo evidently thought otherwise to this practice in the implementation of the BDP-105.smile.gif

What he said.
post #346 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchot View Post

I do not stream music or movies at this time with the player and is not the main reason why I purchased the 105, so take that into consideration. My experience with my LCD-2s is that the 105 can drive Redbook CDs and stereo SACDs/DVD-As fine at about an 85 volume level. (With "fine" for me being that my ears will be ringing if I listen at that level of listening for any extended periods of time.)
Switching over to DVD and Blu ray movie discs with 5.1 sound fields or above is more problematic for me. At the full 100 level, the volume "just about" equals the 85 level that I enjoy listening at with CDs. I don't notice any distortion at this full volume level, but wish I could go higher as needed.
(Listening to a few mono or stereo DVDs has also been a satisfactory listening experience, but I tried out a few lossless Blu rays with mono and stereo soundtracks and the volume level is again just slightly lower than what I would want.)
I sent Oppo an e-mail asking for a fix to increasing the output voltage in the headphone amp and they responded that there might be a software solution made available which, however, could decrease accuracy and may introduce artifacts. They also stated that a hardware solution would be the better solution.
I'd assume that listening preferences among users will vary. What may be fine for my old (56 year) ears might not translate as well for a person in their twenties and vice versa.
I'm going into the second week of owning the 105 and I'm greatly enjoying the player for what it gives me. One of my main concerns is how well the headphone amp operates and I will continue to focus on that aspect of the player for the next three weeks at which time I will have to decide to either trade down to the 103 and find another alternative to drive my LCD-2s or decide that the 105 is good enough to satisfy me in the headphone category. At this point, I've ended each night with a listening of a different CD on the 105 and have come away with a very favorable impression.

Thanks a lot for the feedback. I will wait to see if they can improve the amp through firmware updates.

I will probably purchase the new Centrance HiFi M8 to drive my LCD-2. http://centrance.com/products/hifi-m8/

Patrick
post #347 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

I've always been surprised by the large majority of so-called hifi audio enthusiasts who go off the deep end over specs.
For one thing, exactly which spec should they focus on?
To me, just listen.
There'll either be a noticeable difference, or there won't.
e.g. I've got two pre-amps that have very very good analog volume controls.
When I get an OPPO 105, that'll be a key thing I'll try. Namely compare the 105's digital volume control to a very very good analog volume control.
No matter what conclusion I reach, it's never a permanent conclusion for me, as I have a very long attention span and a habit of revisiting things that I've tried in the past.

You are right! It is actaully just that simple. Just listen! I think I actually enjoyed this hobby more before I joined AVS.eek.gif I've never heard the specs in all of my listening.biggrin.gif The focus should be on what comes out of the box as opposed to what's inside box, because the implementation is more important than the sum of the components in the box.smile.gif
post #348 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebop View Post

Just subscribing to this thread. I have a 95 I love. Don't see a "need" for the 105, but perhaps. Reading with interest.
~Bob

Bob,

Save yourself.biggrin.gif Run and keep running!biggrin.gif
post #349 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hikmer View Post

I did pull the trigger and am auditioning both, the 105 is clearly a step up in dynamics and bottom end. There isn't even a need for me to A/B the units, it is really apparent very quickly. However, I am still finding it hard to separate with my outboard DAC...both Oppo models are great transports.
I am curious to know more about this. Considerig usig the Oppo as a transport instead of a Linn (would I realy lose out much?) then into a high end DAC.
Are you hearing marked difference between OPPO's onboard DAC vs your outboard one ?
post #350 of 10154
Stacking, not staking DACs but who cares! All I care about is does it sound better or not! That 's all that matters quality sound, al the technical mambo jumbo is irrelevant if it does not sound better biggrin.gif

So we I read a review with graphs and measurement and listen then I will know?
post #351 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

This brings a question to mind......... it seems Oppo is going back on their once thought superior stacking scenario. Wasn't the same information and theory available to them back when they were designing the 83SE and 95? Why has it suddenly become a questionable practice to stack DACs when it was the preferred method just one model release ago?

Ralph Waldo Emerson: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Mark Twain: She was wise, subtle, and knew more than one way to skin a cat!
--Bob
post #352 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Stacking, not staking DACs but who cares! All I care about is does it sound better or not! That 's all that matters quality sound, al the technical mambo jumbo is irrelevant if it does not sound better biggrin.gif

So we I read a review with graphs and measurement and listen then I will know?

You have to print out the graphs and gently crackle them near your ear -- like testing freshly baked bread.
--Bob
post #353 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Stacking, not staking DACs but who cares! All I care about is does it sound better or not! That 's all that matters quality sound, al the technical mambo jumbo is irrelevant if it does not sound better biggrin.gif
So we I read a review with graphs and measurement and listen then I will know?

We just got done with an election where one team used the we'll-go-with-our-gut approach, and the other team went with hard data. Guess how that turned out.

Audiophilia is the only technology-based pursuit I'm aware of where subjectivity comes into the picture. You wouldn't buy a PC based on your "gut" feel about how well the processor performs floating-point operations. You'd insist on specs (or you'd read reviews, from reviewers who read the specs for you). All that stuff about CPU speed, amount of RAM, disk capacity, etc.: it's specs. The horsepower, mpg, top speed, skid-pad cornering, and braking in your car? Specs. Watts of output in your microwave? Specs. Even when everything was analog, there were still hard specs.

Get an MRI? Works because of the technology. Get a filling. Works because of the technology. Get your eyeglass prescription checked. An eyeglass prescription *is* specs. (Specs for specs, come to think of it.)

We're surrounded constantly by brilliant technological achievements based on fundamental understanding of natural laws and how to manipulate nature to our benefit, all based on hard science, engineering, data. Facts. Specs.

So. If someone with a suitably precise measuring device puts the 95 on a bench and measures it, then does the same with the 105, and finds that the 105 *on paper* underperforms the 95, that will be interesting data. It's just one data point, but it's still data. And data matters.

Edit: I had an epiphany after posting this. The reason subjectivity is allowed into audiophilia is that it doesn't *matter*. You'd never fly in an airplane designed by a guy who likes to wing it (pun unintentional). You'd want the plane to be designed by a qualified licensed engineer with a degree and strong skills. But if you buy a piece of audio equipment with lousy specs but great marketing spin (and believe me, there have been some doozies, like a certain single-ended monoblock with > 30% THD), all that happens is you're fleeced (or you manage to convince yourself that the midrange sounds "lush").
Edited by jimshowalter - 11/23/12 at 8:20pm
post #354 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphader View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

The subwoofer channel only carries the LFE channel plus re-directed LF from channels set as "small".

So when I leave the speakers set to "large" and the dedicated stereo outputs downmix set to "FL/FR" the LFE goes only to the sub-woofer if/when available and not to the main speakers, therefore no bass doubling. The crossover frequency would therefore have no effect in this case. Stereo material (without LFE) is heard the same as it would be if the downmix was set to "Stereo". And the headphone out is always a full "Stereo" downmix regardless of these settings.

Is this correct so far?

I'm thinking this would only work if the actual audio appearing in in the dedicated stereo outputs is dependent on the settings in the audio processing section for the multi-channel outputs which would need to be "LT/RT" or the setting of the dedicated stereo outputs downmix set to "FL/FR" would not have the surround information mixed in. Which is where my confusion comes in as in the manual there is a clearly highlighted note that states:

NOTE
Speaker Configuration applies to the multi-channel analog audio outputs only. All digital
(bitstream and LPCM) outputs are unaffected by these settings.


The note seems to imply that the settings in that section have no affect on the dedicated stereo outputs.

Yes, you have it correct with one proviso I'll mention in a moment. When you set Stereo Signal = FRONT LEFT/RIGHT the Dedicated Stereo Analog outputs respond to the multi-channel settings exactly the same way that happens normally with the LF/RF outputs of the multi-channel set -- that's what enables you to USE them in place of the normal LF/RF outputs. That is, once you have FRONT LEFT/RIGHT set, those jacks become part of the multi-channel set. So the Manual is correct, albeit perhaps confusing.

Now, the proviso: When Stereo Signal = DOWN MIXED STEREO is set (i.e., when the Dedicated Stereo Analog outputs are configured to operate independently of the multi-channel Analog outputs), then the Stereo down mix present on those L/R outputs DISCARDS LFE (i.e. the .1 channel of 5.1 or 7.1 tracks). This is done to avoid having to attenuate L/R substantially to avoid clipping the input of your pre-amp when LFE is mixed into them. That would raise their noise floor.

For the multi-channel set, a Stereo down-mix which also has the Subwoofer set to OFF mixes LFE into LF/RF. If you want to have the other behavior, set a Stereo down mix with the Subwoofer ON (but perhaps not actually cabled) and speakers Large.
--Bob
post #355 of 10154

Well that must be my problem. I've been using "The Devil's Dictionary"....
--Bob
post #356 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by emylly View Post

I'm using the 105 without a receiver/processor.

I have three identical active speakers for LF, RF, C (ATC SCM10), and a 4-channel power amp with an input gain dial powering the 4 passive surround speakers, and a powered sub (ATC C2).

All speaker set to small, cross over at 80hz.

Using the Oppo's test tones in the Speaker Config screen i first match the surrounds using the gain dial on the power amp.

The three speakers across the front are the same so no adjustments needed.

So I'm at 0db trims in the Oppo for all speakers except the sub.

In order to match SPL for the sub (using Radio Shack digital SPL meter, slow, c-weighting) I have to max the Level knob on the sub and max the trim in the Oppo (+10db) Speaker Setup screen.

Even then I am about 1-2 db shy of a match.

I'm pretty sure bass-man Bob said it was ideal to be a few db high on the sub level?

So that means I'm off by almost 5db.

I also recall you (Bob) menitoned that the +10db would have to be applied externally?

So I'm pretty sure I've either done this wrong, won't be able to do it or both.

I do have plans to get an analog preamp back into the mix (Parasound P7) - mainly to add my turntable back into the mix. But I'm seeing now that that pre-amps's +10db trims might be necessary.

Thanks for any further advice.

Unless your Sub is way too small for your room, it is pretty unlikely that max Volume on the Sub plus the +10dB boost you've put into the OPPO settings would be insufficient.

Check the Manual for your Sub and make sure you haven't accidentally wired to its High Level input rather than its Line Level input. (The High Level input is intended to be wired to the output of a Power Amp.)

Also check and make sure you have disabled any internal crossover processing in the Sub -- or set it to the highest possible frequency if you can't disable it altogether. If that's mistakenly set to a low frequency, you are telling the Sub to discard most of its input.

If you really do have everything hooked up properly and still can't get enough volume from the Sub, then the correct solution is to get a bigger Sub (or a 2nd Sub).

HOWEVER, as a workaround for the moment you can balance things by lowering the output Volume trim for the OTHER speakers. You could do that by lowering the gains for all 3 in your pre-amp or lowering their output volume trims in the OPPO.

But really, what you are reporting sounds to me like a big Red Flag that you don't have your Sub wired/configured correctly.
--Bob
post #357 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

You have to print out the graphs and gently crackle them near your ear -- like testing freshly baked bread.
--Bob

Careful now guys! this forum is worthless without the "S" in AVS, its an aspect I as a Layman, have come to appreciate, as it has only served to deepen my enthusiasm for my hobby;)
post #358 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimshowalter View Post

We just got done with an election where one team used the we'll-go-with-our-gut approach, and the other team went with hard data. Guess how that turned out.
Audiophilia is the only technology-based pursuit I'm aware of where subjectivity comes into the picture. You wouldn't buy a PC based on your "gut" feel about how well the processor performs floating-point operations. You'd insist on specs (or you'd read reviews, from reviewers who read the specs for you). All that stuff about CPU speed, amount of RAM, disk capacity, etc.: it's specs. The horsepower, mpg, top speed, skid-pad cornering, and braking in your car? Specs. Watts of output in your microwave? Specs. Even when everything was analog, there were still hard specs.
Get an MRI? Works because of the technology. Get a filling. Works because of the technology. Get your eyeglass prescription checked. An eyeglass prescription *is* specs. (Specs for specs, come to think of it.)
We're surrounded constantly by brilliant technological achievements based on fundamental understanding of natural laws and how to manipulate nature to our benefit, all based on hard science, engineering, data. Facts. Specs.
So. If someone with a suitably precise measuring device puts the 95 on a bench and measures it, then does the same with the 105, and finds that the 105 *on paper* underperforms the 95, that will be interesting data. It's just one data point, but it's still data. And data matters.
Edit: I had an epiphany after posting this. The reason subjectivity is allowed into audiophilia is that it doesn't *matter*. You'd never fly in an airplane designed by a guy who likes to wing it (pun unintentional). You'd want the plane to be designed by a qualified licensed engineer with a degree and strong skills. But if you buy a piece of audio equipment with lousy specs but great marketing spin (and believe me, there have been some doozies, like a certain single-ended monoblock with > 30% THD), all that happens is you're fleeced (or you manage to convince yourself that the midrange sounds "lush").

This is what I've come to appreciate about AVS, even though I got my feelings hurt upon joining:( I stuck it out and took it like a Man and ended up purchasing better gear ( measured well and sounded good) that not just my ears enjoyed but the brain that could also comprehend why it sounded good!

Peace, Harmony and Audiophile nirvana!

Great post;)
post #359 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimshowalter View Post

We just got done with an election where one team used the we'll-go-with-our-gut approach, and the other team went with hard data. Guess how that turned out.
Audiophilia is the only technology-based pursuit I'm aware of where subjectivity comes into the picture. You wouldn't buy a PC based on your "gut" feel about how well the processor performs floating-point operations. You'd insist on specs (or you'd read reviews, from reviewers who read the specs for you). All that stuff about CPU speed, amount of RAM, disk capacity, etc.: it's specs. The horsepower, mpg, top speed, skid-pad cornering, and braking in your car? Specs. Watts of output in your microwave? Specs. Even when everything was analog, there were still hard specs.
Get an MRI? Works because of the technology. Get a filling. Works because of the technology. Get your eyeglass prescription checked. An eyeglass prescription *is* specs. (Specs for specs, come to think of it.)
We're surrounded constantly by brilliant technological achievements based on fundamental understanding of natural laws and how to manipulate nature to our benefit, all based on hard science, engineering, data. Facts. Specs.
So. If someone with a suitably precise measuring device puts the 95 on a bench and measures it, then does the same with the 105, and finds that the 105 *on paper* underperforms the 95, that will be interesting data. It's just one data point, but it's still data. And data matters.
Edit: I had an epiphany after posting this. The reason subjectivity is allowed into audiophilia is that it doesn't *matter*. You'd never fly in an airplane designed by a guy who likes to wing it (pun unintentional). You'd want the plane to be designed by a qualified licensed engineer with a degree and strong skills. But if you buy a piece of audio equipment with lousy specs but great marketing spin (and believe me, there have been some doozies, like a certain single-ended monoblock with > 30% THD), all that happens is you're fleeced (or you manage to convince yourself that the midrange sounds "lush").

So which spec is it that tells me which fighter plane will win a dogfight? How about which car is going to win a road race? Or which computer will be best for my needs?

The challenge is that the subjective audio experience is made up of many aspects of the performance of each of the components that make up the complex audio systems that create the sonic environment we experience as audio.

I'll grant you that for an audio source component things are a little bit simpler but which spec is more important, frequency response flatness or THD+N; over which frequency range? What about jitter vs. dynamic range? I wouldn't know which component is going to sound best in my system in my room just by looking at a spec sheet; although I can probably tell which ones won't sound very good.
post #360 of 10154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

First of all, welcome to AVS!
First make sure you are wired correctly. The Asynchronous USB DAC Input on the OPPO is the squarer shaped socket on the back panel. It is NOT the thin rectangle shaped USB socket -- that one is for attaching a USB hard drive. You may need to get a cable that has the appropriate USB plug on the OPPO end.
Using the OPPO remote, press the Input button (top right), A menu will pop up on your TV screen. Select "USB Audio In" at the bottom of the list. The OPPO splash screen will appear on your TV and the OPPO will now be listening for digital audio input on that socket. Whatever you play into that socket will go out on the Analog audio outputs and also on HDMI as 2.0 LPCM.
So play music on your computer. Are you getting sound now?
If not, then press the Info button on the OPPO remote (found to the upper right of the 4 Arrow buttons). This will bring up the on-screen Info display that shows you what the OPPO is hearing on that USB DAC Input and what it is sending out on the HDMI output.
If you are not getting audio on the Input then the problem is in the setup in your computer. I.e., either the driver you installed is not active yet (perhaps you need to reboot) or you have not yet told the computer to use that for sound output.
If you are getting audio in and out of the OPPO but still hearing nothing, then you may not have the correct input selected on your Receiver, or you may have accidentally hit the Mute button on the OPPO remote (near the top).
--Bob

In connecting an Apple Mac mini to the BDP-105 via a USB port, do you need to download the requisite drivers from (a) an Apple site to the computer (b) the Oppo site to the computer or (c) from the Oppo site to the BDP-105?
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