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Official OPPO BDP-105 Owner's Thread - Page 18

post #511 of 10257
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tme110 View Post

The included head amp is nice and does sound good. I have no plans on using it, I just checked it out. It does power lcd-2's well enough but on a quick listen only though the sound was nice I think the dynamics were pretty limited. In all honesty the head amp power is strangely low though. I have a few head amps and though a couple are considered high-end they are all suddenly considered low power. With my grado's (which are very sensitive) I never go over 30% on any amp and the LCD-2 don't go above 50. On the 105 the grados are over 50%, maybe over 60 I don't remember and the lcd-2 can be upwards of 80. These setting are much lower on a rock album with the volume war issue going on. And again this is compared to low power amps with very sensitive headphones so even with grado's, which you should always watch out for, there is no chance you will damage them on the 105.

I refresh the OPPO Wiki pretty much every day to see if there are any good nuggets, and this was posted just last night:

Q: Is the headphone amplifier's dynamic range enough? I usually use volume 20 ~ 30 on my other headphone amp, but need to use volume 80 on the BDP-105.
Quote:
The BDP-105 headphone amplifier has a great dynamic range. Your volume setting of 80 is actually very good. This is because the built-in headphone amp on the BDP-105 works very differently than other standalone headphone amps.

A standalone headphone amp takes a line-level input signal and amplifies it to drive headphones. Since the input level can vary greatly from one device to another, the amplifier is usually designed to work with a big range of input level. It is possible that when the input level is too high or the volume is set too loud, the output can clip, causing significant distortion. For this reason, standalone headphone amps are normally operated at a low volume control setting (below 50%) to preserve the "headroom" in case a high level signal comes in.

The headphone amp in the BDP-105 is connected directly to the ESS Sabre32 Reference DAC. Its input level is fixed. The highest input level is called 0dBFS and that is the maximum level a digital audio sample can represent. The amplifier is designed to take this 0dBFS input and amplifies it to drive headphone, at the maximum output level (volume control at 100), '''without clipping'''.

Volume control in the BDP-105 is implemented in the DAC chip as a 32-bit floating point multiplier. When the volume is set to 100, the digital audio signal is not attenuated at all. The headphone amplifier gets the maximum input level and drives the headphones at the rated output (depending on the impedance of the headphones). If volume level 100 works for your headphones, that's the best. If it is not loud enough (unlikely though), then the headphone amp in the BDP-105 is not suitable for your headphones - you will need to use an external headphone amp.

It is most likely that volume level 100 is too loud. You will need to reduce the volume. Will that hurt the sound quality? The answer is no. Thanks to the 32-bit volume control in the DAC, the performance is as good as an analog volume control but without the statics and wear. ESS has a nice presentation about the volume control mechanism in their DAC chips, which are used in the BDP-105.

The second to last slide says, "A digital volume control with access to the DAC internal data path will behave just like the analog one until it reaches the noise floor of the analog components of the DAC." The noise floor is at -135dB in the ESS Sabre DAC. It is nothing if you reduce the volume 20dB or so, which is volume level 60 on the OPPO BDP-105.

So the conclusion is that the headphone volume level on the BDP-105 is "Bigger is Better". There is no need to worry about the dynamic range or headroom because the headphone amp is a non-clipping design.

Edited by Neuromancer - 11/28/12 at 2:12pm
post #512 of 10257
Does anyone have a Crestron rs232 module for any of the Oppo players? Trying to avoid writing/adapting a module. The 95 and 103 have, of course, additional commands, over their progenitors.

Thank you very much

Fury
post #513 of 10257
I am enjoying the 105 over my 83SE. I haven't dug into the bells and whistles, just the XLR and Multichannel outs. So far everything I tried works, even some DVD a's that were tricky for the 83SE
post #514 of 10257
My hope is to use the 105 as a complete BluRay player/pre-pro solution, with the output going directly to amps. I will have cable-box as an input. It would replace a player with an Anthem D1 pre-pro.

The only problem I see in the manual, is the lack of configurable audio delay. Is it going to have this, and if so, will it be configurable by source?
post #515 of 10257
Does anybody else is seeing the problem I have with 2-tb hard drive from WD and lag times?, sometimes is just hangs out there just to go back to a new folder and I continue to have the volume getting stock and then coming up or down suddenly, thinking it was a problem with the hard drive I tried to duplicate the problem with the Oppo-95 and it performs flawlessly.confused.gif
post #516 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Again, all this means is that the current volume knob setting on your Sub happens to be correct. If you are using Small speaker settings in the OPPO (and NOT playing SACD discs using DSD-Direct-to-Analog-Conversion), then the multi-channel Analog Subwoofer output boost needed is +15dB, which of course can be accomplished by setting the Sub volume knob that way.
If you now change ALL the speakers to Large (or OFF), then the boost needed will be only +10dB. The change in Subwoofer output level (at the same volume knob setting on the Sub) should be easy to hear.
If you are not hearing this then something is screwed up in your setup. I.e., you are not listening to what you think you are listening to.
--Bob


you are correct it needs 10db that's it sorted
thanks
post #517 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara View Post

Does anybody else is seeing the problem I have with 2-tb hard drive from WD and lag times?, sometimes is just hangs out there just to go back to a new folder and I continue to have the volume getting stock and then coming up or down suddenly, thinking it was a problem with the hard drive I tried to duplicate the problem with the Oppo-95 and it performs flawlessly.confused.gif

It's not clear what you are describing.
If you have thousands of files on the HDD, you need to give the player a couple minutes to index everything before trying to browse. It will be sluggish while its still indexing.
If it's an external, self powered drive, there may be issues with power management going into sleep mode which can take a while to wake up again.
post #518 of 10257
I refresh the OPPO Wiki pretty much every day to see if there are any good nuggets, and this was posted just last night:

Q: Is the headphone amplifier's dynamic range enough? I usually use volume 20 ~ 30 on my other headphone amp, but need to use volume 80 on the BDP-105.
Quote:
The BDP-105 headphone amplifier has a great dynamic range. Your volume setting of 80 is actually very good. This is because the built-in headphone amp on the BDP-105 works very differently than other standalone headphone amps.

A standalone headphone amp takes a line-level input signal and amplifies it to drive headphones. Since the input level can vary greatly from one device to another, the amplifier is usually designed to work with a big range of input level. It is possible that when the input level is too high or the volume is set too loud, the output can clip, causing significant distortion. For this reason, standalone headphone amps are normally operated at a low volume control setting (below 50%) to preserve the "headroom" in case a high level signal comes in.

The headphone amp in the BDP-105 is connected directly to the ESS Sabre32 Reference DAC. Its input level is fixed. The highest input level is called 0dBFS and that is the maximum level a digital audio sample can represent. The amplifier is designed to take this 0dBFS input and amplifies it to drive headphone, at the maximum output level (volume control at 100), '''without clipping'''.

Neuromancer:

 

Thanks for posting the article which is informative indeed. The problem it doesn't address is why the gain of the head-amp is fixed so low at 1. The DAC puts out a full range signal at 0-dBs which never gets amplified further to drive low impedance headphones adequately. I see no reason NOT to use a gain greater than 1. This is the complaint some people have with the current design since the head-amp is capable of putting out watts of power at very distortion levels instead of the low milli-wattage its currently designed to produce. Inefficient headphones will suffer as a result.

 

BTW, maybe i'm being picky(or maybe an asstongue.gif), but the DAC isn't connected directly to the head-amp as indicated in the wiki report. The ESS9018 DAC is a current output device and the head-amp is a voltage device so there's a current-to-voltage (I/V) op-amp for each channel in betweenbiggrin.gif.

 

I don't understand why folks using Audeze LCD-2 headphones complain about lack of dynamics. These headphones are rated with an efficiency of 91 dB/W and an impedance of 60 ohms. Oppo's specs its head-amp to produce 91mW maximum into 60ohms, so this means the listener's ear will be injected with SPLs of 110dB peaks! This is plenty loud for normal human hearing so something doesn't quite add up here. I suspect maybe the 91dB/mW efficiency rating given for the LCD-2 is a wee-bit too generous.


Edited by dmusoke - 11/28/12 at 4:40pm
post #519 of 10257
Thread Starter 
The long end of the argument is that OPPO does not want to be liable to damaging your equipment, even if it was just some cheap headphones that were included with your yearly iPhone purchase. OPPO has to make concessions with their designs as they have no direct control over how their customers will use their players. They either have a very power headphone amplifier that smokes high impedance headphones, or they create a headphone amplifier which they feel comfortably drives the widest range of cans on the market.
post #520 of 10257

I would suggest all 105 lovers to get more nuggets about the 105 design from Oppo's wiki page http://wiki.oppodigital.com/index.php?title=Category%3ABDP-105 .

post #521 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Srgtfury View Post

Does anyone have a Crestron rs232 module for any of the Oppo players? Trying to avoid writing/adapting a module. The 95 and 103 have, of course, additional commands, over their progenitors.
Thank you very much
Fury
You might check the existing Crestron Integrated Partner modules for the 93/95 or check on the Crestron Yahoo Group, which I believe you're a member of. Taking an existing 93/95 module and adding the new 103/105 commands isn't difficult as the protocol is pretty simple.
post #522 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

The long end of the argument is that OPPO does not want to be liable to damaging your equipment, even if it was just some cheap headphones that were included with your yearly iPhone purchase. OPPO has to make concessions with their designs as they have no direct control over how their customers will use their players. They either have a very power headphone amplifier that smokes high impedance headphones, or they create a headphone amplifier which they feel comfortably drives the widest range of cans on the market.

Along these lines, will Oppo change the default behavior of the variable line outputs after an upgrade? Having them reset to full volume will do a hell of a lot more damage than blowing out a cheap headset eek.gif I am very, very, very, very, very, concerned about my system with these default settings!

Thanks,

Styln
post #523 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Styln View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

The long end of the argument is that OPPO does not want to be liable to damaging your equipment, even if it was just some cheap headphones that were included with your yearly iPhone purchase. OPPO has to make concessions with their designs as they have no direct control over how their customers will use their players. They either have a very power headphone amplifier that smokes high impedance headphones, or they create a headphone amplifier which they feel comfortably drives the widest range of cans on the market.

Along these lines, will Oppo change the default behavior of the variable line outputs after an upgrade? Having them reset to full volume will do a hell of a lot more damage than blowing out a cheap headset eek.gif I am very, very, very, very, very, concerned about my system with these default settings!

Thanks,

Styln

But this only happens when you completely wipe out the flash memory such as during a FW upgrade process which only happens every now and then. In other respects, the preferred volume control remains at the prior set level. Until, Oppo fixes it, i'd reset the volume level before i insert a shiny disk in the player.

post #524 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

But this only happens when you completely wipe out the flash memory such as during a FW upgrade process which only happens every now and then.

Once is enough.

Styln
post #525 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

I don't understand why folks using Audeze LCD-2 headphones complain about lack of dynamics. These headphones are rated with an efficiency of 91 dB/W and an impedance of 60 ohms. Oppo's specs its head-amp to produce 91mW maximum into 60ohms, so this means the listener's ear will be injected with SPLs of 110dB peaks! This is plenty loud for normal human hearing so something doesn't quite add up here. I suspect maybe the 91dB/mW efficiency rating given for the LCD-2 is a wee-bit too generous.

I think the question about lower level when playing back movies vs CDs is the real concern.
post #526 of 10257
^ I think that might be fixable. That's likely the down mix attenuation and may not be needed, or at least may not be needed to that full degree.
--Bob
post #527 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

I think the question about lower level when playing back movies vs CDs is the real concern.

Yes! That's where the problem lies for me.

I can get enough volume for my Senn 800s and LCD-2s when listening to CDs and SACDs and when matched with the 105, the sound quality is wonderful. But switching over to 5.1 or higher movies results in a major disappointment. Pushed to the max volume of 100, just doesn't cut it. The Senn 800s have such a wonderfully wide sound stage that they provide the perfect alternative when I'm watching a movie and I can't fire up my speaker system.

I sent an e-mail to OPPO about the lack of volume on the headphone amp and their response hinted at the possibility that they may do a software fix in the future. Maybe if enough 105 owners feel that this is problem and send an e-mail to OPPO about it, that software solution will appear in a future firmware upgrade.
post #528 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

I don't understand why folks using Audeze LCD-2 headphones complain about lack of dynamics. These headphones are rated with an efficiency of 91 dB/W and an impedance of 60 ohms. Oppo's specs its head-amp to produce 91mW maximum into 60ohms, so this means the listener's ear will be injected with SPLs of 110dB peaks! This is plenty loud for normal human hearing so something doesn't quite add up here. I suspect maybe the 91dB/mW efficiency rating given for the LCD-2 is a wee-bit too generous.

I think the question about lower level when playing back movies vs CDs is the real concern.

 

That may be the case (and its the first time i'm hearing about this particular one you just mentioned), but some headphone folks have been complaining as well that they have to jack up the volume to 100 or close to it (when playing stereo sources) to get their headphones play adequately but with their more powerful external amps, they experience the full performance of  their headphones. Personally, since my hearing is precious to me (with bouts of tinnitus every now and then), 110dB peaks are plenty loud enough.

post #529 of 10257
Speaking of subjective impressions...

The other night my wife put on some music. We have a CD and SACD from this band, for the same recording. The CD has always sounded a bit muddy and bass-heavy compared to the SACD. I assumed it was the SACD she'd played, because it wasn't muddy, and the vocals were so clear I could hear the lyrics (it's the kind of music where the lyrics are hard to hear).

Turns out, it was just the CD.

Very interesting. And I'm not even a subjectivist.
post #530 of 10257
^ A truism: With better gear, problems in recordings become MORE noticeable.

Way too many CDs have unbelievable amounts of compression, and other shocking examples of authoring incompetence. I have a whole box of CDs, purchased when I was an innocent lad, which are simply unlistenable in my current setup. It's not so much that my tastes have changed, but that the recordings and transfers to disc are (and were) simply godawful. Every flaw is now shockingly revealed.
--Bob
post #531 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

It's not clear what you are describing.
If you have thousands of files on the HDD, you need to give the player a couple minutes to index everything before trying to browse. It will be sluggish while its still indexing.
If it's an external, self powered drive, there may be issues with power management going into sleep mode which can take a while to wake up again.

Thank you for responding, but the problem doesn't happen with the Oppo 95 which I still have. The point is that if the problem never ocurred and still today the hard drive performs flawlessly in conjuction with the Oppo-95, it is to be assumed that the fault lies on the 105 player.

In general, the 105 needs a lot work firmware wise and that's fine with me, but I will report problems as I see it so that Oppo gets a hold of them, the unit is a very good deal for what it does but it wasn't free.wink.gif
Edited by luismanrara - 11/28/12 at 11:46pm
post #532 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

I don't understand why folks using Audeze LCD-2 headphones complain about lack of dynamics. These headphones are rated with an efficiency of 91 dB/W and an impedance of 60 ohms. Oppo's specs its head-amp to produce 91mW maximum into 60ohms, so this means the listener's ear will be injected with SPLs of 110dB peaks! This is plenty loud for normal human hearing so something doesn't quite add up here. I suspect maybe the 91dB/mW efficiency rating given for the LCD-2 is a wee-bit too generous.

I was talking with someone else about how you calculated those numbers, and how Audeze reckoned on 1 Watt to produce 120dB.

120dB is 1000x 90dB (each 3dB is double the power, so its 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2). So if it takes 1mW to produce 90dB, it will take 1W to produce 120dB. That is how Audeze reach their numbers published on their website advising on amplifier power. By the same calculation you would need about 120mW for 110dB. So by using Audeze's way of calculating, you would not get the 110dB peaks you describe. I have no idea which is correct, just pointing out the difference here.

Apparently, when listening at an average level of 80dB (a common listening level), 100-110dB transient peaks are not unusual at all with certain music. It does not damage your hearing because they only last for a fraction of a second. Hearing damage occurs due to sustained volumes and not peaks.

Oppo claim that if you can get loud enough under 100 volume, then you cannot be compressing the dynamics at all, because the amplifier is designed to output a max line level 0dBFS even if the volume is set to 100. In other words if the volume is loud enough to satisfy, even if the volume was set to 95 to achieve this, the dynamics will not be compromised because there is always the headroom to carry 0dBFS regardless of the volume setting. However, this doesn't make full sense either, because their headphone amplifier specifications clearly show numbers that imply if you listen at 80dB, there isn't the power to deliver those peaks. So something doesn't make sense or add-up correctly here.

Finally, let's assume Oppo's headphone numbers are very reserved and the true output capability is much better, especially for peaks, then what would cause user perception that the dynamics are not as good as dedicated headphone amplifiers? The main thing I can think of is slew rate. Perhaps the amplifier (or current to voltage op-amps) simply isn't capable of handling those transient peaks as fast and therefore the perception is that the dynamics are reduced.
Edited by JonStatt - 11/29/12 at 2:10am
post #533 of 10257
Hi gsr,

Thank you. Pulled the module off the Crestron site. Just trying to save the Simpl+ rebuild, "simple" as it can be... Kewl that you know I am a member of Tony's group as well.

Prolly should post the file there after modification and field use, but maybe Crestron will update it soon.


Thank you very much

Fury
post #534 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ A truism: With better gear, problems in recordings become MORE noticeable.
Way too many CDs have unbelievable amounts of compression, and other shocking examples of authoring incompetence. I have a whole box of CDs, purchased when I was an innocent lad, which are simply unlistenable in my current setup. It's not so much that my tastes have changed, but that the recordings and transfers to disc are (and were) simply godawful. Every flaw is now shockingly revealed.
--Bob

Hi Bob,

Not sure if there were authoring incompetency or competency issues, since all those moons have passed. Your current setup prolly wasn't achievable at that time, based on existing hardware, and most thought, as CD's were brought forward, that they were revelatory...which they were, to a fashion. At least no significant snap, crackle and pop/disc washing, anti static guns, etc.. Hey, UR Nakamichi tape deck deck added to UR Nomad, sounded great too-no? Sure there were all sorts of other factors, but the then, authored CD's, anachronistically played today get a somewhat unfair rap, based on the then, in place, target market. Completely agree, though, , even if no one is watching or can discern the difference in the work product, one should always strive for quintessence.

Thank you very much

Fury
post #535 of 10257
^ It's true with every format. Some studios take the time to do it right, and others just put out any old garbage. (I've got plenty of other CDs purchased back then that sound just great today.)

Indeed, even some of the stuff that's being put out on Blu-ray discs these days is shockingly bad.

Blu-ray.com just reviewed a recent title which exhibited Head Alignment errors! Remember those? Those streaky horizontal lines and image tears that happen when you play a VHS tape in a deck with a poorly aligned magnetic read head? biggrin.gif
--Bob
post #536 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Srgtfury View Post

Kewl that you know I am a member of Tony's group as well.
I run the group along with Tony...
post #537 of 10257
Please enlighten me a bit as I am looking to delve into the digital world. Being as some would call "old school" as I was brought up as "the remote", son go change the channel or even better I was sometimes dual action as the antenna operator too.. So I haven't minded getting up to change the LP or CD etc, but now that things are going to more computer oriented I figure to try this path as well for some music. Obviously the BDP 105 is well suited for this development, so grace me with some direction if you wouldn't mind. I did flip some music that a friend passed to be via USB flash drive and that was nice, the menu once I figured the movement around was not too bad. The music well as most depends on the recording etc was not to bad. I already have a PC or two in the house including laptops. Wondering to use one of my laptops for the server or purchase an Apple product...Any thoughts here??? And the other is the software that is best suited to use as my player??? Your input is greatly appreciated. I love this unit so far as I had stated in my precious post and have found no flaws to it other than the secondary HDMI for DSD...
post #538 of 10257
In response to an earlier thread regarding unresponsiveness of the Oppo 105 remote, I can say 100% yes and amen to that. Using the calibration CD "Disney WOW" to get the brightness and contrast tuned from default settings, I lost control of the remote input and was unable to make any calibration changes. Buttons just stopped functioning and I could not adjust parameters. I have previously used this same calibration CD with my BD-8002 Marantz without issues.

Also, I was surprised when I popped in Norah Jones' SACD "Come Away With Me" to find that in several of the songs particularly Cold Cold Heart (in fact all songs sounded different than Redbook) her voice and piano were brought way, way forward and the bass and guitar could barely be heard in the background. Does anyone know if this was done on purpose in SACD?, or is this something going on with the 105?
post #539 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I was talking with someone else about how you calculated those numbers, and how Audeze reckoned on 1 Watt to produce 120dB.
120dB is 1000x 90dB (each 3dB is double the power, so its 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2). So if it takes 1mW to produce 90dB, it will take 1W to produce 120dB. That is how Audeze reach their numbers published on their website advising on amplifier power. By the same calculation you would need about 120mW for 110dB.

I think it is an interesting calculation to debate, and to try to decide whether the LCD-2 can obtain realistic listening levels with the BDP-105. My suspicions are that it can if the reference levels in the playback chain are correct. One of the questions that is important in deciding this is whether the published power rating is peak to peak or RMS, and how conservative it is. Peak to peak vs RMS is a difference of a factor of 2.8, which is 4.7 dB. Another issue is the question of what the real peak level experienced in an live listening situation is. It's often quoted at 120db, or even higher in some publications. However discussions of this I've seen say this is exaggerated. It's more likely this is the level measured close miked on an instrument, not in an audience. More likely you are looking at peaks of 105 db at the conductor, and lower in the audience.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Pg5gUG5CYI8C&pg=PA721&lpg=PA721&dq=audience+sound+levels+symphony&source=bl&ots=eCTG_i4xn6&sig=VbV57D1MSt3d-fTTihH62YU1jFY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t4K3ULq5D5TC0AGw5IDADg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=audience%20sound%20levels%20symphony&f=false
post #540 of 10257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ It's true with every format. Some studios take the time to do it right, and others just put out any old garbage. (I've got plenty of other CDs purchased back then that sound just great today.)
Indeed, even some of the stuff that's being put out on Blu-ray discs these days is shockingly bad.
Blu-ray.com just reviewed a recent title which exhibited Head Alignment errors! Remember those? Those streaky horizontal lines and image tears that happen when you play a VHS tape in a deck with a poorly aligned magnetic read head? biggrin.gif
--Bob

Heh. Each technology generation exposes the shortcuts that studios got away with on the previous generation.

Can't wait to see those 4K titles!
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