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any suggestions for cables? - Page 9

post #241 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

So a $1000 mass production Japanese amp has the same harmonic distortion levels and current driving ability as a $10,000 American amp? Same quality power supply and transformer? Have you ever heard a cheap amp on a pair of full range speakers that have moderate sensitivity and range from 2 to 6 ohms? The speakers will not sound very good.

A $1000 amp is not considered low end at all in today's economy. Now a $179 HT 5.1 system in a box, perhaps. But I will bet the amps in that $179 HT in a box still has inaudible distortion levels within it's rated power.

You are probably not aware the same technology that brings us 3ghz microprocessors is also used to make power amp chips. Yes, bigger, better, cheaper faster.
post #242 of 873
Quote:
I loved my Bryston and can easily imagine owning Bryston or similarly designed and built amps in teh future, but in truth, I don't expect a significant audible difference between it and my midlevel receiver under my usage.

I sold my bryston equipment after I did repeated listening tests of the quad 405 and the Hypex AS 2.100. At listening levels (up to just about100dB at listening position) through my speakers ( Kef 104/2) I could not hear a difference.

You also have to compare amps driven within their parameters. If you compare a 70W amp with 0.1% at 40W and drive a speaker with 85db/w at 1 foot sensitivity you definitely will hear distortion if you attempt drive that speaker with this amp to much above 100db. (I hope I got my db scale right...the difference between acoustic and electrical db).
post #243 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Oh
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You didn't answer Arny's questions...
Oh sorry, I agree with you Arny, I am sure you have tried many cheap amps. biggrin.gif

The above almost looks like it was aimed down some conceited person's noise. ;-)

However it shows ignorance of my history of an audiophile, which is actually quite well known among many.

At one time I was a charter subscriber to Stereophile and an early subscriber to TAS. I bought it all, hook line and sinker!

I've listened to quote a few fairly expensive amps - Brystons, Parasounds, Audio Research, etc.

I've visited the homes of numerous high end audiophiles and attended several high end hi fi shows.

I've also done any number of DBTs where the listeners were high end audiophiles listening to their own systems.
post #244 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kraut View Post

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I loved my Bryston and can easily imagine owning Bryston or similarly designed and built amps in teh future, but in truth, I don't expect a significant audible difference between it and my midlevel receiver under my usage.

I sold my bryston equipment after I did repeated listening tests of the quad 405 and the Hypex AS 2.100. At listening levels (up to just about100dB at listening position) through my speakers ( Kef 104/2) I could not hear a difference.

You also have to compare amps driven within their parameters. If you compare a 70W amp with 0.1% at 40W and drive a speaker with 85db/w at 1 foot sensitivity you definitely will hear distortion if you attempt drive that speaker with this amp to much above 100db. (I hope I got my db scale right...the difference between acoustic and electrical db).

100 dB @ 1 meter from a speaker with 85 dB/W sensitivity requires 15 dB above one watt which is just under 40 watts.

The point is that any amplifiers being compared should have very similar frequency response to each other and enough power so that neither is clipping. The idea is to eliminate any obvious sources of audible differences, so that any differences that are heard have non-trivial causes.

Most audiophiles compare amplifiers and DACs with obvious sources of audible differences still part of the systems. Thus they guarantee that they will hear differences which to many seems to be more important than just enjoying the music.
post #245 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

If I'm not mistaken esh you alone have participated in multiple threads on this subject. You just don't believe it, that's clear. Define slight difference to start. Define within spec. Why do you always start with some extremely low end of the spectrum (like a $50 amp) and then compare to amps that cost far more (and cost far more than $2500 than the ones you mention for example)? You are one of the very very few in these forums that keep spewing the interconnect, power cable and amp garbage "science" and the only conclusion many of us can come up with is that you are clueless.
Whatever...I really do not care,all I ever tryed to say was offer my opinion that amps,power cords,interconnects,etc make a difference to MY ears..I have spent a lot of time and money on my gear and I would not change a thing..to say that I am clueless is defenitly not very nice on your part..I am enjoying my system very much and will continue to buy and believe in whatever my ears and mind think sounds good..all I ever have done here is offer my opinion..so if your going to talk to me like I don't have a clue what I'm saying..well that's to bad you can not respect others believes and you will not see me on this thread no more..I'm out ta here
I will go listen to some steely Dan with all my upgraded I.c. power cords..etc..with a big smile on my face!..and that's all that really matters in this hobby..isn't it?...happy holidays to you all!
post #246 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

If all cables, amps, blu-ray players, and processors sound and look the same then why read or post on the forums? The hobby is so simplified for you as there is nothing more to learn, try or test. I would think the only forum that would be of interest to you would be blu-ray movie reviews.
+10000!..that's what I'm talking about!!!
post #247 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

If all cables, amps, blu-ray players, and processors sound and look the same then why read or post on the forums? The hobby is so simplified for you as there is nothing more to learn, try or test. I would think the only forum that would be of interest to you would be blu-ray movie reviews.
+10000!..that's what I'm talking about!!!

Well for one thing these are the audio visual science forums rather than the guys who are just hoping that the more they spend on their "hobby" forum....
post #248 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

If I'm not mistaken esh you alone have participated in multiple threads on this subject. You just don't believe it, that's clear. Define slight difference to start. Define within spec. Why do you always start with some extremely low end of the spectrum (like a $50 amp) and then compare to amps that cost far more (and cost far more than $2500 than the ones you mention for example)? You are one of the very very few in these forums that keep spewing the interconnect, power cable and amp garbage "science" and the only conclusion many of us can come up with is that you are clueless.
Whatever...I really do not care,all I ever tryed to say was offer my opinion that amps,power cords,interconnects,etc make a difference to MY ears..I have spent a lot of time and money on my gear and I would not change a thing..to say that I am clueless is defenitly not very nice on your part..I am enjoying my system very much and will continue to buy and believe in whatever my ears and mind think sounds good..all I ever have done here is offer my opinion..so if your going to talk to me like I don't have a clue what I'm saying..well that's to bad you can not respect others believes and you will not see me on this thread no more..I'm out ta here
I will go listen to some steely Dan with all my upgraded I.c. power cords..etc..with a big smile on my face!..and that's all that really matters in this hobby..isn't it?...happy holidays to you all!

No, it isn't. Best I can say is the biggest sucker for a sales pitch is another sales person (neither of whom know what they're talking about).
post #249 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

You are probably not aware the same technology that brings us 3ghz microprocessors is also used to make power amp chips. Yes, bigger, better, cheaper faster.
The junction break down voltage for current generation semiconductor process (.025 to .035 micron) used for microprocessors is 1.5 volts or less. There is no way you can use them for high-power audio amplifiers. Analog ICs are often built out of essentially obsolete (read cheap) processes four or more generations behind if not more. Besides, when it comes to classic high power AB amplifiers, they are not ICs but hybrid modules (IC driving discreet power transistors in the same package). So they are not remotely scaling or benefiting from advancements in semiconductor technology as digital systems are.

The only exception is switchmode/Class-D amps where they are using more advanced processes (although still behind the CPU/memory geometries).

Where there are some exceptions, in general sticking the front-end of the amp in the same place as the output means that there are thermally induced distortions. So while there are advantages in other areas, in general the best performance doesn't come from a single chip IC.
post #250 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post


Whatever...I really do not care,all I ever tryed to say was offer my opinion that amps,power cords,interconnects,etc make a difference to MY ears..

The first problem is that it can usually be shown that amps, power cords, interconnects,etc make no difference to anybody's ears. If they make a difference at all, they make a difference to the listeners brains. The perceived difference is not based on the evidence of the ears, it is based on the biases in the brain. The whole thrust of bias-controlled testing it to make the outcome of the test be solely due to what is heard, not what is seen or remembered from reading some advertisement or magazine article.
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I have spent a lot of time and money on my gear and I would not change a thing..

That would be peace of mind - a good thing. Hold that thought!
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to say that I am clueless is definitely not very nice on your part.

I see talk like that as being counter-productive. Nobody knows everything, and we should all be learning.
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I am enjoying my system very much and will continue to buy and believe in whatever my ears and mind think sounds good..

That makes you no different from the most avid believer in DBTs. Well, the ears part, but not the mind part if by mind you mean prejudices.
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all I ever have done here is offer my opinion.

But your opinion appears to me to be based on something different than what you seem to believe. That's my opinion based on my life's experiences and as long as I say it respectfully, I have the same right to express my opinion as you do.

I do believe that you think that you can take the results of the listening tests that you have done at face value. However, I suspect that you don't have a firm grip on all of the different things, some unrelated to sound quality, that may be affecting your conclusions and actions.
post #251 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

You are probably not aware the same technology that brings us 3ghz microprocessors is also used to make power amp chips. Yes, bigger, better, cheaper faster.
The junction break down voltage for current generation semiconductor process (.025 to .035 micron) used for microprocessors is 1.5 volts or less. There is no way you can use them for high-power audio amplifiers.

It appears to me Amir that you are not considering the big picture. While it is true that the outcome of semiconductor processing for logic chips and power chips can be vastly different in terms of voltage and power, advancements in lower level areas of semiconductor processing such as advancements in chip design, masking, materials purity, doping processes etc., are shared across the line.

Another angle is the fact that one of the big areas of recent advancement in AVRs are automated system optimization facilities such as YPAO, MCACC, and Audyssey which are implemented in microprocessor software. So it becomes exactly true that the same technology that brings us 4 GHz microprocessor chips brings us AVRs with improved sound quality as actually used by consumers.
Quote:
Analog ICs are often built out of essentially obsolete (read cheap) processes four or more generations behind if not more. Besides, when it comes to classic high power AB amplifiers, they are not ICs but hybrid modules (IC driving discreet power transistors in the same package). So they are not remotely scaling or benefiting from advancements in semiconductor technology as digital systems are.

However, modern AVRs have more chips devoted to DSPs, digital interfaces, and general-purpose microprocessors than they have analog signal processing chips, particularly if the scale of the chips is considered. IOW an AVR might have a goodly number of jelly-bean analog signal processing chips, but the majority of the square mm of silicon is devoted to the digital domain.
post #252 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Whatever...I really do not care,all I ever tryed to say was offer my opinion that amps,power cords,interconnects,etc make a difference to MY ears..I have spent a lot of time and money on my gear and I would not change a thing..to say that I am clueless is defenitly not very nice on your part..I am enjoying my system very much and will continue to buy and believe in whatever my ears and mind think sounds good..all I ever have done here is offer my opinion..so if your going to talk to me like I don't have a clue what I'm saying..well that's to bad you can not respect others believes and you will not see me on this thread no more..I'm out ta here
I will go listen to some steely Dan with all my upgraded I.c. power cords..etc..with a big smile on my face!..and that's all that really matters in this hobby..isn't it?...happy holidays to you all!

The skeptics here want you to go away...that's part of their goal. There are "very very few" believers here that post because of the stern opposition. They are here alright, but they rather not face the usual crew.

esh516, they try and make everyone believe here that the majority do not believe in audible/visual differences in cables, power cords, amps, processors, power conditioners or blu-ray players, but if you go to Audiogon and other sites, the majority there do. The 10 or so very vocal skeptics here make you think that the thought of "anything" making a difference is ludicrous. Their views are out numbered by hundreds or maybe thousands to 1 ratio at Audiogon and other sites. This is why they are here to counter the "mass hysteria" without too much opposition.

There really should be a new forum here called "the official nothing matters forum" this way these disputes with believers would occur less often.

Happy Holidays and enjoy your system.
Edited by G-Rex - 12/25/12 at 9:38am
post #253 of 873
^Yep. Those darned electrical engineers, always ruining the fun for everybody!
post #254 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

amps,power cords,interconnects,etc make a difference to MY ears..
That's what you say to your customers.
post #255 of 873
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Their views are out numbered by hundreds or maybe thousands to 1 ratio at Audiogon and other sites

That is why I stay away from the nonsense propagated at those sites, and prefer hydrogenaudio and avs.

At least here you can voice your opinions, even if you are a "believer" - sounds appropriately religious to me, what most of the audiophile community esp. at the agony site is about - whereas on some of the sites advocating belief instead of evidence anybody who advocates DBT or any such scientific skeptical nonsense (to their minds) is automatically banned or the posts are deleted.

What seems unfortunate at avs: the believer finds the challenge to his/her cherished beliefs uncomfortable. Like any true believer would who accepts anecdotal or hearsay evidence or so called evidence based on insufficiently rigorous testing and thinks his auditory system is infallible enough to not require such testing before making extraordinary statements.
Those extraordinary statements as in: there is audible differences in amps that measure within a small percentage of their parameters, where the difference in FR is indistinguishable, that audio cables (that might measure slightly different, which will have an effect at several hundred feet length of cable runs) at home environment are clearly audibly different, that power cables of appropriate awg size but from different "boutique" manufacturers have influence on an amps performance, that Dacs that have similar specs can sound different etc.

I am glad that some of those statements can be scrutinized here, can be rejected as nonsense without the posts being removed, altered or the contributor being banned for not being a true believer in fairy dust.
post #256 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

The skeptics here want you to go away...that's part of their goal. There are "very very few" believers here that post because of the stern opposition. They are here alright, but they rather not face the usual crew.
Usual crew? What are they?
Quote:
esh516, they try and make everyone believe here that the majority do not believe in audible/visual differences in cables, power cords, amps, processors, power conditioners or blu-ray players, but if you go to Audiogon and other sites, the majority there do. The 10 or so very vocal skeptics here make you think that the thought of "anything" making a difference is ludicrous. Their views are out numbered by hundreds or maybe thousands to 1 ratio at Audiogon and other sites. This is why they are here to counter the "mass hysteria" without too much opposition.
One side bases their opinion on facts and the other side bases it on fiction. Would you care to guess which side uses facts?
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There really should be a new forum here called "the official nothing matters forum" this way these disputes with believers would occur less often.
Why should there? There is already Audiogon forum you mentioned. Is it so difficult to just go there and interact? Or, is someone forcing you or others to lurk here?
post #257 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

That's what you say to your customers.
I do not have customers!.. I do not sell anything I am a hard working 45 yrs old with 4 kids and a very wonderful hobby of a/v!
post #258 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

The skeptics here want you to go away...that's part of their goal. There are "very very few" believers here that post because of the stern opposition. They are here alright, but they rather not face the usual crew.
esh516, they try and make everyone believe here that the majority do not believe in audible/visual differences in cables, power cords, amps, processors, power conditioners or blu-ray players, but if you go to Audiogon and other sites, the majority there do. The 10 or so very vocal skeptics here make you think that the thought of "anything" making a difference is ludicrous. Their views are out numbered by hundreds or maybe thousands to 1 ratio at Audiogon and other sites. This is why they are here to counter the "mass hysteria" without too much opposition.
There really should be a new forum here called "the official nothing matters forum" this way these disputes with believers would occur less often.
Happy Holidays and enjoy your system.
Thank you very much g-rex ! Its very nice to hear from someone who actually knows what its all about! I will check out some other threads ,just got my oppo bdp-103 today..and..well it would be best to NOT talk about how amazing this thing is here!..thanks again g-rex and happy holidays
post #259 of 873
Quote:
.well it would be best to NOT talk about how amazing this thing is here!..thanks again g-rex and happy holidays

as it was said - there are a multitude of other forums to accommodate your belief.

If you want to make statements here...some are asking for evidence. If you do not like that, nobody forces you to post here.
post #260 of 873
Quote:
The 10 or so very vocal skeptics here make you think that the thought of "anything" making a difference is ludicrous. Their views are out numbered by hundreds or maybe thousands to 1 ratio at Audiogon and other sites. This is why they are here to counter the "mass hysteria" without too much opposition.


There are dozens upon dozens, maybe hundreds, on this site who have vocalized opposition about the claims of audible difference for the things you believe do make a difference, G-Rex. Many of them who consider themselves audiophiles, many too with years of experience and many even with the disposable income to spend oodles of cash on "high end" cables, dacs, amps, etc., if they thought there was a strong evidence-based case to be made for those products.

Yes, there may be about 12 - 15 members you see here more often in these threads than those other, equally skeptical members. Some might join in occasionally, but I think many of them have grown weary of the debate and stay away, just as many who you've described who share similar views as yours choose to stay out of it.

And as kraut described, most other audio forums tend to discourage skeptical talk or even flat out put rules in place to keep most of it out. So what has developed over the years is a giant echo chamber of believers, reinforcing each others similar views. So when you have someone like esh516 joining up here after having been primarily exposed to the "everything makes a difference" crowd around the web, not to mention at the local dealer and of course, the revenue-beholden magazines, it's quite a shock. And there is great resistance. Quite understandable, really. Probably too late for him to radically reorient his views. But for the relatively new people to the hobby seeing these threads, well, at least they have an early "fighting chance" to be exposed to the arguments of both sides in relatively equal amounts before becoming too entrenched in a particular point-of-view.
post #261 of 873
Just the very use of skeptic vs believer says it all. Facts and science do often get in the way of beliefs.
post #262 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

 

esh516, they try and make everyone believe here that the majority do not believe in audible/visual differences in cables, power cords, amps, processors, power conditioners or blu-ray players, but if you go to Audiogon and other sites, the majority there do. The 10 or so very vocal skeptics here make you think that the thought of "anything" making a difference is ludicrous. Their views are out numbered by hundreds or maybe thousands to 1 ratio at Audiogon and other sites. This is why they are here to counter the "mass hysteria" without too much opposition.

There really should be a new forum here called "the official nothing matters forum" this way these disputes with believers would occur less often.

Happy Holidays and enjoy your system.

 

That's certainly not true. The room and the speakers make a huge difference. Way, way more than any differences in modern electronics.

post #263 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

The skeptics here want you to go away...that's part of their goal.

Not really.

However, it would be interesting to know why you feel that way.
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There are "very very few" believers here that post because of the stern opposition.

I would say that there is no stern opposition to science and reason on AVS. Such little oppostion as is seen is actually very weak - poorly prepared, poorly educated about audio in general, very few relevant facts at their command, not good at rhetoric, etc.
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They are here alright, but they rather not face the usual crew.

If you check the stats for my AVS account you will see that I have posted more than 5,000 posts here and have been posting since October 2002. That is 10 years. Where is this "usual crew" that you are talking about?
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esh516, they try and make everyone believe here that the majority do not believe in audible/visual differences in cables, power cords, amps, processors, power conditioners or blu-ray players,

I don't recall anybody saying that the majority of audiophiles are aware of the relevant science surrounding "differences in cables, power cords, amps, processors, power conditioners or blu-ray players" Can you quote anybody actually saying such a thing on AVS?
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but if you go to Audiogon and other sites, the majority there do.

I would agree with that. First question - is the truth up for a vote? Is it determined by a popularity contest?
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The 10 or so very vocal skeptics here make you think that the thought of "anything" making a difference is ludicrous.

If you actually read what is being said, the people you call skeptics are very strong about certain things such as loudspeakers and room acoustics making clear audible differences. Your apparent claim that they think that "...the thought of "anything" making a difference is ludicrous." would appear to be something that you made up to say. A little hyperbole, perhaps?
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Their views are out numbered by hundreds or maybe thousands to 1 ratio at Audiogon and other sites.

Again, do you think that scientific truth is up for a vote or part of a popularity contest?
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This is why they are here to counter the "mass hysteria" without too much opposition.


Interesting that you call what goes on at places like Audiogon "Mass hysteria". Did you slip up and tell the truth? ;-)
post #264 of 873
"There are laws of physics, and there are ears. Somewhere the two mus meet in common ground" - Rod Elliott

My system has been assembled piece by piece, each piece fulfilling a need. There are many criteria I use in order to make my decision. The products specifications of course are very useful, its features relative to my needs, user experiences, price, aesthetics, & ... Ultimately, how is the sound or video quality in my set up? After all, this is where it will live, with the rest of my system, components, interconnects, power cords, conditioners/regenerators, cones, display, rack, & room (anything else).

The cool part is, I am not afraid to start a new path or to take a different route. So, I guess what I am saying is that each piece of my system met the approval of my eyes & ears. Each of our systems is unique to each one of us. For example, I am unaware of any such data that correlates with improved audio or video quality I enjoy when I retired my Denon DVD-5900 for an OPPO BDP-95. But that's OK, my eyes & ears are thrilled with the change. I don't need data to hold my hand down this path.

There are basically two sides here with permutations branching off of each. There is no right or wrong here, but we must respect each others views, we might even learn something.
post #265 of 873
To me the existence of any number of opinions regarding non-scientifically run tests of wire (or anything else) all melt away when one considers

Shakti Stones
Green magic marker.

AFAIK, nobody colors the edges of their physical media anymore, and nobody's buying Shakti stones. Hmmm . . . .
post #266 of 873
^
I never had a pet rock either. . .
post #267 of 873
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Thank you very much g-rex ! Its very nice to hear from someone who actually knows what its all about!

LOL
This is all you got from the thread?
post #268 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnjoyingMyRide View Post


There is no right or wrong here, but we must respect each others views, we might even learn something.

There is indeed right and wrong when it comes to science.

While we should treat each other respectfully, no good is served by giving honor to things that they haven't worked and can't possibly work.

If you are superstitious and feel that have to purify yourself for 7 days every time you see a black cat, there is no need for us who know better to follow your lead, pay you wages while you practice your religion, etc.
Edited by arnyk - 12/26/12 at 8:54am
post #269 of 873
Right, it's all in the style of communication. To be able to state what's subjective and what's objective. Alas, it does seem to be the people who're farthest on the subjective scale that has the hardest to separate this.

But on the other side, there are a people on the scientific side clinging to bad info that's not helping communication either.

To stay on ther straight and narrow here can be quite a hard task...
post #270 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord 
But on the other side, there are a people on the scientific side clinging to bad info that's not helping communication either.

Not really.
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