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any suggestions for cables? - Page 19

post #541 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I just repositioned my speakers recently, just a a few more inches out from the wall and a slight change in toe in gave easy to hear improvement. Better soundstage width and depth, better tone balance and dynamics, for a more enjoyable listening experience, the only tools I used were my ears and a tape measure!

That makes sense because moving your speakers an inch will have actual impact on the FR at the listening position. That's easily measurable too.
post #542 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I use my ears to judge sound quality, that is all I need.

What converts the soundwaves which enter your eardrums into something logical?
post #543 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

What converts the soundwaves which enter your eardrums into something logical?

My brain.
post #544 of 873
Good answer! I'd be worried otherwise. Now you just need to realize that this process takes place without conscious thought, and that the subconscious mind can create pre-programmed outcomes, and you're almost converted!
post #545 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

That makes sense because moving your speakers an inch will have actual impact on the FR at the listening position. That's easily measurable too.

Is it possible to measure the dispersion changes at my listening positoion that effected the soundstage? What made the sound more lively and dynamic? Sorry if this is common knowledge, I am ready to learn new things.
post #546 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Well you claim technical specs are all that matters, right? That is your theory. Anyone or audiophile that thinks different is an audiophool, right? Technical specs are only a tool, doesn't tell the whole story, that is my theory. I use my ears to judge sound quality, that is all I need.
I just repositioned my speakers recently, just a a few more inches out from the wall and a slight change in toe in gave easy to hear improvement. Better soundstage width and depth, better tone balance and dynamics, for a more enjoyable listening experience, the only tools I used were my ears and a tape measure!

Of course repositioning your speakers is going to alter the sound. No argument here.

The measurements and specs being discussed involve amps, interconnects and power cables. Those measurements and specs are all that matters when determining the lack of audible change those components are capable of inducing when not fundamentally broken.
post #547 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Even my non audiophile friend could hear an improvement from just replacing the standard junk RCA on his CD player with an entry level strait wire cable. We both could hear better highs, he said "it sounds crisper" and thanked me for giving the cables to him.
....
For those who poo poo anyone using more than 5 dollar cables are just trying to push their beliefs, and make it seem anyone who chose to try better quality cable are fools! If you can't hear it fine, but a lot of folks that try it can, even my non audiophile friend.
Happy Listening!

Interesting claim;)biggrin.gif But how well was the comparison performed? How well was bias controlled for? How many correct guesses to establish what he thought he heard???

As to beliefs, well, some have them and others have knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

...I'm curious as to what type of audio gear you have..obviously I'm sure its good otherwise you would not be on this thread..
Why does it matter what he has? Did he claim anything about his components??? He really doesn't even have to have anything to participate, right???

Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

I do not understand why you try to discredit my believes about good well constructed,great sounding gear and cables..I mean the poor guy who has a 99$ Magnavox htib..would think he has no reason to upgrade that crap,because according to you..he would be wasting his money..I just don't get it.
I am sure he is just questioning your beliefs and I don't see anything wrong with questioning. As to the 2nd part, your are just making unfounded assumptions. rolleyes.gif
post #548 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Is it possible to measure the dispersion changes at my listening positoion that effected the soundstage? What made the sound more lively and dynamic? Sorry if this is common knowledge, I am ready to learn new things.

It is possible. The book in the link below us an excellent place to start and its not as impenetrable as some of the other options. If you're willing to invest in some measurement gear and software that you can use as you read, stuff comes into focus pretty quickly.
http://www.amazon.com/Master-Handbook-Acoustics-Alton-Everest/dp/0071603328/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357349756&sr=8-1&keywords=master+handbook+of+acoustics

The Omnimic would be the easiest tool to get up and running for measurements.
post #549 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Is it possible to measure the dispersion changes at my listening positoion that effected the soundstage? What made the sound more lively and dynamic? Sorry if this is common knowledge, I am ready to learn new things.

Certainly. Soundwaves and their interaction in the room is where the rubber hits the road, and it's also the basis of where the pragmatist's (non-believers) argument lays. In a room you can have up to 30db swings in frequency response depending on SPL levels, where as you'd be hard pressed to get a .05db swing from one component compared to another... and significantly less than that with cables of any kind. It's like trying to hear a pin drop in Times Square from across the street in practical terms.
post #550 of 873



This is a smoothed (1/48) response of a sub woofer assisted heresy 2 speaker in my living room listening position, the rear wall dampened by racks of books, the sidewalls 6 feet from either side. A fairly typical in room response curve as to the peaks and troughs of a real room measurement from what I have seen over the years.

I like any of the believers in cables and amp magic to explain how one would be able to discern differences in 1/10 or less of a percent in the performance of the electronics, or the even more minute differences in cable measurement compared to what an actual measurement of the via loudspeaker reproduced sound reveals.

Seeing those graphs (or even the ones published by stereophile) I state that it is preposterous to claim such minute differences will not be masked by the comparatively monumental room response fluctuations in FR, and even the LS distortion that can reach into the percentage levels.

The measurement was done with the Behringer (8000?) test mic, an m-audio 1010lt souncard and a behringer mic preamp with 48V phantom power, using the REW program.
post #551 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Of course repositioning your speakers is going to alter the sound. No argument here.
The measurements and specs being discussed involve amps, interconnects and power cables. Those measurements and specs are all that matters when determining the lack of audible change those components are capable of inducing when not fundamentally broken.

My Yamaha amp had better basic specs than my Odyssey amps except damping factor. I like the sound of the Odyssey amps much better. I guess if you factor in the much better beefier power supply, better circuit design and better parts quality, these differences are what the sound quality improvement is from. I do think amps have a sonic signature, two identical measuring amps with different parts quality and circuit design should sound different.
post #552 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

It is possible. The book in the link below us an excellent place to start and its not as impenetrable as some of the other options. If you're willing to invest in some measurement gear and software that you can use as you read, stuff comes into focus pretty quickly.
http://www.amazon.com/Master-Handbook-Acoustics-Alton-Everest/dp/0071603328/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357349756&sr=8-1&keywords=master+handbook+of+acoustics
The Omnimic would be the easiest tool to get up and running for measurements.

Thanks I will check that out sometime!
post #553 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraut View Post


This is a smoothed (1/48) response of a sub woofer assisted heresy 2 speaker in my living room listening position, the rear wall dampened by racks of books, the sidewalls 6 feet from either side. A fairly typical in room response curve as to the peaks and troughs of a real room measurement from what I have seen over the years.
I like any of the believers in cables and amp magic to explain how one would be able to discern differences in 1/10 or less of a percent in the performance of the electronics, or the even more minute differences in cable measurement compared to what an actual measurement of the via loudspeaker reproduced sound reveals.
Just because you have (linear) frequency response variations in a room, it doesn't mean it masks other types of distortion. By that notion, if I play an MP3 on such a system that has compression artifacts, I won't hear it. Yet I can hear compression artifacts on worse sounding systems. So do many others in countless listening tests. Non-linear distortions can be audible in the face of linear response variations in the room. Distortion is additive unless you can prove that one masks the other.
Quote:
Seeing those graphs (or even the ones published by stereophile) I state that it is preposterous to claim such minute differences will not be masked by the comparatively monumental room response fluctuations in FR, and even the LS distortion that can reach into the percentage levels.
All you have to do is prove that. Do you have any listening tests that demonstrate it? Or psychacoustics science? Or are you suggesting that we take it on faith?

For now and to avoid bringing new data into the thread, the Dolby Jitter test we discussed earlier used Sony MDR-V6 headphones. They have an in-ear response of:

graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=1513

You see the huge high frequency variations? Despite that, the Dolby testers heard jitter levels/timing error as low as 3 *billion* of a second when testing single tone (subject #2):

i-qwRxQtT-M.png

They used a jitter frequency of 5Khz which produced distortion side bands at 3 Khz and 13 Khz. Their level for the lowest threshold was -89 db! Yet it was still audible if you believe the test.

How do you explain these results?

Our hearing system can be amazingly good at times and terrible at others. Knowing which is which requires far more knowledge than these layman arguments.
post #554 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I do think amps have a sonic signature, two identical measuring amps with different parts quality and circuit design should sound different.

From The Audio Critic:

"If amplifiers A and B both have flat frequency response, low noise floor, reasonably low distortion, high input impedance, low output impedance, and are not clipped, they will be indistinguishable in sound at matched levels no matter what’s inside them."
post #555 of 873
Quote:
For now and to avoid bringing new data into the thread, the Dolby Jitter test we discussed earlier used Sony MDR-V6 headphones. They have an in-ear response of:


In case you have a problem with reading comprehension: I was clearly NOT talking about headphones, I was talking about claims that such differences could be heard through loudspeaker reproduction in listening room.
Again, building strawmen..your hobby?
Quote:
Do you have any listening tests that demonstrate it? Or psychacoustics science? Or are you suggesting that we take it on faith?

Definitely: All the cable, amp tests etc that were blind or double blind tested and found no discernible differences between amps driven within their parameters they were designed for and none between cables unless they had signal altering networks included. I am NOT talking about tests using headphones.
Edited by kraut - 1/4/13 at 7:17pm
post #556 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumbtackJack View Post

From The Audio Critic:
"If amplifiers A and B both have flat frequency response, low noise floor, reasonably low distortion, high input impedance, low output impedance, and are not clipped, they will be indistinguishable in sound at matched levels no matter what’s inside them."
.

That just over simplifies the situation, more to it than that. And the reason designers experiment with circuit design using testing with equipment and their ears. Too much feedback to reduce the THD does more harm than good for example. The dynamic abilities of an amp are also important, don't know how they measure that but my Odyssey amps kill the Yamaha in that aspect, though they both have similar power rating. A music signal is a complex thing, and over simplifying things dont fly with me!
post #557 of 873
BTW, that 'magic' Canare cable (Gepco, Mogami and Belden all have similar cables) cost me .38 a ft retail. This is the same cable used in studios all over the world and is considered the best on the market. We use it for lo-z mic levels, balanced line level, data, intercom, lighting DMX data and it has never been exceeded in performance. As described, the basic reason is the dual twisted pairs that cancel out induced noise and the extremely tight cross woven braid shield is the other.

The biggest issue in single ended cables is noise rejection and the use of a spiral wrap shield can be a real problem. You can easily find inexpensive IC with a dense weave braid and sitill pay a very few bucks for top notch performance. I wonder if those who trumpet all the exotic IC cables ever opened up any type of reproduction device -record or playback -and looked at the interconnect wiring; light weight braids, tiny flexible wires from connector to connector. absolutely nothing exotic. They buy miles of this interconnect wire, manufatcure their own bord to board interconnects using mass produced plasticconnectors, most of which are merely crimped and not soldered. These connectors are a couple pennies each. Even high end video (MUCH higher bandwidth and much LOWER signal voltages use the same type of cable.

I will never understand how anyone can attribute ANY performance function improvement claim from a power cable. Once the power cable enters the recification process or switching power supply, all remants of AC voltage including spikes etc cease to exist and what comes out is DC. Flat, no waveform DC. There is no alteration in any way shape or form to the FR, soundstage size or geometry. Want proof? Try hooking up a bench type power supply; you know, the types the engineers use to DESIGN the amps and repair stationsuse to repair and tweak audio and video components.
You can also run them off batteries. No difference.
post #558 of 873
Quote:
A music signal is a complex thing, and over simplifying things dont fly with me!

Complex compared to what? A DC current? Definitely. A video stream? Not so much.
post #559 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 
what I say makes sense..
On many levels, it does not.
post #560 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 
I use my ears to judge sound quality, that is all I need.
You are mistaken. You may believe otherwise, and even act on your beliefs, but it does not remove your error.

Regarding some things in this world, there is just truth and fiction, not opinion vs opinion. You may have the opinion that red cars look better, which is fine, but your belief that red paint makes a car obviously faster such that any driver with an open mind can tell is just wrong. You can't have an opinion about the latter, only incorrect beliefs.

You can't have an opinion about whether magic cables work wonders, just incorrect beliefs. And incorrect they are. All the respect and courtesy in the world won't change that.
post #561 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraut View Post

Complex compared to what? A DC current? Definitely. A video stream? Not so much.

Right, so whats your point? Ask a designer of great sounding gear why they chose a circuit design. If it was such a basic easy thing (music reprodution) my old Pioneer (for example) 100 watt .002 THD should of been great, it was crap compared to what I have now.
post #562 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

You are mistaken. You may believe otherwise, and even act on your beliefs, but it does not remove your error.
Regarding some things in this world, there is just truth and fiction, not opinion vs opinion. You may have the opinion that red cars look better, which is fine, but your belief that red paint makes a car obviously faster such that any driver with an open mind can tell is just wrong. You can't have an opinion about the latter, only incorrect beliefs.
You can't have an opinion about whether magic cables work wonders, just incorrect beliefs. And incorrect they are. All the respect and courtesy in the world won't change that.

Yep your right!

Happy Listening!
post #563 of 873
Quote:
If it was such a basic easy thing

Actually, it's not that hard, check out a schematic sometime.
post #564 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

Actually, it's not that hard, check out a schematic sometime.

What what that prove?

This could go on forever, so I'm happy to enjoy great sound as I guess all you do to, so I'll just say by and happy listening!
post #565 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

Actually, it's not that hard, check out a schematic sometime.

What what that prove?

This could go on forever, so I'm happy to enjoy great sound as I guess all you do to, so I'll just say by and happy listening!

Ya think? This isn't already approaching infinity for a relatively simple question about cables?
post #566 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

What deficiencies in the speaker does the room improve? And what is that "properly treated" room that does that?
There are "great" speakers that are not expensive. Room treatment on the other, can most definitely be expensive, uglifiy your room, and take a ton of time to research, understand, measure and properly implement. The start of this journey is a good speaker: the thing that generates the sound in the room. It is not in my opinion smile.gif, a room with a lot of treatment. You can actually make the sound of a "good" speaker worse than good by doing some of the most common advice given on forums. But maybe I am missing something and hence the above question smile.gif.

I agree with this, it depends on the speaker. I just changed speakers a while back from Odyssey Lorelei to Vapor Audio Cirrus. I had two stacked bass traps in the corners behind the speakers and an absorbtion panel at each first side wall reflection point. This worked nice for the Odyssey speakers, but with listening sessions and experimentation, The Vapors sound better with one bass trap in each corner and no absorption panels. Plus I added a bigger thicker carpet that helped. I even tinkered with DIY room lenses, but no longer use those either.

You can over damp a room, and a well designed speaker model shouldn't need a lot of room treatment, unless the room is very live ie. bare floors etc. I think speaker placement is really important to get the most from a good speaker system, this is a process that takes time and patience. And I bet most people don't have their speakers placed for optimal sound. Just changes within a few inches once you have a good starting point through experimentation and listening can make a solid improvement. Toe in and rake angle also are important and just small changes can improve or degrade the imaging, Soundstaging and frequency response at the listening position.

I got more benefit from tweaking speaker placement than changing cables.
Edited by Todd68 - 1/5/13 at 3:14am
post #567 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post



For those who poo poo anyone using more than 5 dollar cables are just trying to push their beliefs, and make it seem anyone who chose to try better quality cable are fools! If you can't hear it fine, but a lot of folks that try it can, even my non audiophile friend.
 

 

They're not beliefs if they are backed by science and can easily be proven. At that point they transform from beliefs into facts. Nobody would ever dispute that people do believe they hear differences.

post #568 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Most likely because Parasound provided the amps in return for the right to utilize their names in advertising. Apparently, the association impresses the audiophools who confuse marketing with technical specs.
Now why would a 10 billion dollar company endorse a small company like parasound?...I'm curious as to what type of audio gear you have..obviously I'm sure its good otherwise you would not be on this thread..I do not understand why you try to discredit my believes about good well constructed,great sounding gear and cables..I mean the poor guy who has a 99$ Magnavox htib..would think he has no reason to upgrade that crap,because according to you..he would be wasting his money..I just don't get it.

 

You are right in that you don't get it. The reason the HTIB you mention sounds like crap is mainly because the speakers are crap. The amp is likely to be fine, so long as it has enough power to drive the speakers properly. Although all amps do not sound the same, period - they do sound the same when working within their design specs and not clipping. If it was possible to replace those speakers with speakers that were of a far better design and construction, and if in doing so, the Magnavox amp could drive them properly, then the sound would probably be pretty good. All that matters with an amp is that it is powerful enough to drive the speakers to the levels required, without introducing distortion. All modern SS amps have vanishingly low distortion that falls well below human audibility, so it becomes a matter of power. A 10 watt amp will not drive a pair of 87dB/1 watt, 4 ohm speakers to a good SPL without massively distorting.  In your example, no amount of changing the cables for more expensive cables will make any difference at all to the SQ.

post #569 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Then you are either very, very remarkable or there is something amiss with your brain wink.gif
Why..thank you 701!...brains fine..that's the nicest thing you have said to me all week..lol..you all have a great weekend..when I get back from the beach I'm gonna sit down and listen to all my black sabbath CDs..peace!

 

 

 
:)
post #570 of 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I didn't call you anything.
We aren't discussing theory. Audio science and human auditory capabilities are fairly well worked out. Please don't ask me to agree to disagree if someone wants to claim that 2 + 2 = 5.

Well you claim technical specs are all that matters, right? That is your theory. Anyone or audiophile that thinks different is an audiophool, right? Technical specs are only a tool, doesn't tell the whole story, that is my theory. I use my ears to judge sound quality, that is all I need.

I just repositioned my speakers recently, just a a few more inches out from the wall and a slight change in toe in gave easy to hear improvement. Better soundstage width and depth, better tone balance and dynamics, for a more enjoyable listening experience, the only tools I used were my ears and a tape measure!

 

Moving your speakers for better FR is sensible and can be proven to be beneficial (or not as the case may be) by measuring. If you measured your room after moving your speakers you would see what had changed that is affecting the SQ - maybe boundary reinforcement issues had been helped, maybe you had corrected some small problems in the time domain, maybe some in the frequency domain too, maybe you had helped with reflection issues off the side walls etc etc. All of that can easily be measured in a few minutes and would show you why you could hear a difference. 

 

More importantly, you may have made an improvement but it is not the best you can do in your room - again the measurements will help you optimise the system. They can show you why the imaging is now better for example and help you make small adjustments, or place room treatments, to make it even better still. Although you have mad audible improvements, you cannot be sure that you have achieved the best you can and it would take for ever to do this by ear - moving the speakers a little here and there, moving the sub, adding some absorption at a first reflection point, moving it a little etc etc.... all this takes minutes when you have some simple measuring gear.

 

The problem with Esh's approach is that he will happily drop say $300 on cables that can be proven to make no difference whatsoever to the SQ whereas if he spent the same on the OmniMic and a little time learning how to us it, he could make really significant changes to his SQ. 

 

Measurements are not the only thing that matter - they are a tool designed to help improve SQ. And they are a better tool than your ears - you are wrong that "all you need is your ears". Ears are fabulous listening devices but poor measuring instruments. You cannot, for example, explore the issues of comb filtering, and solve them, by using your ears alone. This is why speaker manufacturers spend more time measuring when designing a speaker than they spend listening. Here's a good article - an interview with famous loudspeaker designer John Dunlavy - have a read - it's not very long and won’t take much of your time. Read why he says that no loudspeaker can possible sound better than it measures....

 

But at least you are on the right track - the room and speakers are what make the difference. Not 'audiofool' cables.

 

EDIT: forgot the link for the article...

 

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/163/#

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