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any suggestions for cables? - Page 4

post #91 of 873
12/11/12 at 3:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

If anyone can point out flaws in this scientific experiment you will win a prize.

For any test to be even remotely scientific (or even accepted as a form of proof) it must be double blind. So what prize do I win?
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post #92 of 873
12/11/12 at 7:16am
Quote:
If anyone can point out flaws in this scientific experiment you will win a prize.
You haven't presented any statistics that can be interpreted as proving your point.
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post #93 of 873
12/11/12 at 7:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus 
You haven't presented any statistics that can be interpreted as proving your point.

Well, the one person swopped cable and other people could pick which cable was which. That sounds like a perfectly scientific, logical, watertight, concrete lab experiment! I'm surprised you disagree with this credible evidence. Heavens to Betsy ...
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post #94 of 873
12/11/12 at 8:01am
Quote:
Well, the one person swopped cable and other people could pick which cable was which. That sounds like a perfectly scientific, logical, watertight, concrete lab experiment! I'm surprised you disagree with this credible evidence. Heavens to Betsy ...
Points for trying, I suppose, but close only counts in horseshoes. You did a single-blind test of some sort (not clearly described) and reported partial results, which is a clear sign of cherrypicking.
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post #95 of 873
12/11/12 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

That sounds like a perfectly scientific, logical, watertight, concrete lab experiment!
Which one of those experiments have you observed to be able to compare to the one you mentioned on post #93?
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post #96 of 873
12/11/12 at 10:22am
Alright, everyone relax. I think it was painfully clear I was joking. Sorry for pulling your leg. Sheesh. biggrin.gif

Anyway, I asked the guy how the experiment was conducted and his answer
Quote:
The method - I did it in 4 very easy steps. plug in RCA, press Play........press Stop, swap cable (without listeners noting cable... not that they had a clue what brand/material it was or cared)

No seriously, the two experiments was for FUN, and to be a little informative to a bunch of fiends that are curious and that was little bit skeptical. The fact that I posted it on the forum under General discussion is specifically as a conversation piece.
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post #97 of 873
12/11/12 at 10:56am
Quote:
Alright, everyone relax. I think it was painfully clear I was joking. Sorry for pulling your leg. Sheesh.

Anyway, I asked the guy how the experiment was conducted and his answer
Ah, re-read your post and realized you were quoting someone else.

But the point remains: One has to be a fair bit more careful about methodology if one wants to convince the skeptics. It's doable, but it's not trivial.
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post #98 of 873
12/11/12 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus 
But the point remains: One has to be a fair bit more careful about methodology if one wants to convince the skeptics. It's doable, but it's not trivial.

Agreed. So what did you think of the "concrete" evidence I presented? biggrin.gif Ie ... "I did it in 4 very easy steps. plug in RCA, press Play........press Stop, swap cable (without listeners noting cable... not that they had a clue what brand/material it was or cared)".
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post #99 of 873
12/11/12 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Agreed. So what did you think of the "concrete" evidence I presented? biggrin.gif Ie ... "I did it in 4 very easy steps. plug in RCA, press Play........press Stop, swap cable (without listeners noting cable... not that they had a clue what brand/material it was or cared)".
For you to be asking such question, your answer to my question "Which one of those experiments have you observed" must be "none". Because if you have, you wouldn't need to ask such question. For your own benefit, why don't you read up on cable double blind test. There are many to be found on Google.
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post #100 of 873
12/11/12 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania 
For you to be asking such question, your answer to my question "Which one of those experiments have you observed" must be "none". Because if you have, you wouldn't need to ask such question.

Goodness, you still don't get it. rolleyes.gif Let me explain the situation to you so there is no confusion. I was being blatantly sarcastic about the testing methodology. The evidence wasn't concrete or watertight -that was a joke. Of course, there was no salient content, just misguided ramblings from someone who is clearly misinformed. I even used an emoticon to make my intentions clear. What's going on here, diomania? biggrin.gif You senile? The evidence is certainly pointing in that direction and no double blind testing is necessary to prove it.

FYI, I understand double blind testing and ABX testing methodologies quite well.
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post #101 of 873
12/11/12 at 5:15pm
Quote:
I was being blatantly sarcastic about the testing methodology. The evidence wasn't concrete or watertight -that was a joke.

You do not get it: in audio cables there is no joke, connectors are drawn and someone will bite the wire.
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post #102 of 873
12/11/12 at 5:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Yes, as recent as two weeks ago I did a double blind test with the speaker cables and it made me realize how ignorant and closed minded some of you are. ...

Only if you insist. People do claim all sorts of things, yet are not able to demonstrate such ability.
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post #103 of 873
12/11/12 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Especially since your money is tight, don't waste a penny in the myth of overpriced, so-called high quality cables or amps, or DACs. Investing money in better-sounding more capable speakers is good. Leaving some money for room treatments often a very good idea. Your best buy in amplification is going to be an AVR, doubly so since an AVR will have its own DAC. Heavier gauge (e.g. 12 or 14 gauge) sYeahpeaker cables can make a difference, but again they don't have to cost a lot of money.

Yeah, but have you heard a good demo with a Krell or Bryston amp?
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post #104 of 873
12/11/12 at 7:05pm
As has been stated and proved hundreds of times over the years, the cable makes no difference one way or the other as long as the current handling capacity is sufficient and he connections are clean and tight. 12 awg copper cable will be just fine. Any number of sources for this. The brand or design of the amp is also a moot point. Krell or Radio Shack.
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post #105 of 873
12/11/12 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo77 View Post

Yeah, but have you heard a good demo with a Krell or Bryston amp?

I've played with Bryston and Krell amps. The ones I used to own are in the link in my sig. I played the so called high end cable game too. What a waste of money.
Want better sound? Just buy better speakers. Game over.
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post #106 of 873
12/11/12 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You don't mention power cords. If you didn't replace those, you can't possibly have the best performance. Contact member "IamAnoobiecheez" to get the best information available about power cords.
I, myself am planning to rip out my 3 20-amp circuits and, based on noobiecheez's advice, replace them with one Grim Reaper Power Cord from Coconut-audio.com. It's $200,000, but it provides "bleeding edge" performance. I'm going to get an inexpensive $100 power conditioner and connect it to the fuze box with the Grim Reaper. Then all I need to do is attach everything to that power conditioner with "cheap" $500 - $1,000 power cords. For my subs, I plan to get 3 Magic Mushroom Power Cords @ $38,000 each. The performance of my system will increase gastronomically. Here the thread where he gave me this incredibly excellent advice: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1440640/high-end-power-cord-for-subwoofer
Here is the coconut-audio website. http://www.coconut-audio.com/index.html They have some great pre-holiday sales going on right now.
Craig

My respect for you is dwindling...but my ears are open, as always.
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post #107 of 873
12/12/12 at 6:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo77 View Post

My respect for you is dwindling...but my ears are open, as always.

Send me your address and I'll have a Magic Mushroom shipped to you at my expense. Here is what the Coconut Audio website says about them:
Quote:
Magic Mushroom power 7m

Designed for: Everything.

Magic Mushroom is liquid smooth, neutral, uncolored and powerful while being laid-back and enjoyable.

Magic Mushroom takes White Beach to a higher level. The bass is bigger, fuller and more powerful, but it's still quicker and more textured with more information! It's also calmer and more laid-back which reduces listening fatigue.

Magic Mushroom uses our 3-stage Astral crystal formula, it will lift you up into a relaxing out of body state so you can enjoy music like never before.



Original price: $38,000
Introductory offer: $3,800

Note: 2 months building time

I'm sure it will take less than 5 seconds for you to hear the difference between the Magic Mushroom and whatever power cord you're using now. Of course, it will take 2 months to get you the cable, so we'll need some patience here.

Craig
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post #108 of 873
12/12/12 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by XStanleyX View Post

...
Want better sound? Just buy better speakers. Game over.

Well, you should do something about the acoustic space they sit in, no? wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #109 of 873
12/12/12 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Well, you should do something about the acoustic space they sit in, no? wink.gifbiggrin.gif

yep, room treatment never hurts. wink.gif
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post #110 of 873
12/13/12 at 2:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by XStanleyX View Post

...
Want better sound? Just buy better speakers. Game over.

Well, you should do something about the acoustic space they sit in, no? wink.gifbiggrin.gif

Yes. The room is at least as important as the speakers. More so IMO. Great speakers will never sound great in a poor room, but speakers that are just 'good' can sound great in a properly treated room. And the cost of treating a room is usually way less than that of buying 'great' speakers too.

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post #111 of 873
12/13/12 at 3:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Send me your address and I'll have a Magic Mushroom shipped to you at my expense. Here is what the Coconut Audio website says about them:
I'm sure it will take less than 5 seconds for you to hear the difference between the Magic Mushroom and whatever power cord you're using now. Of course, it will take 2 months to get you the cable, so we'll need some patience here.
Craig

Do you have space for it? biggrin.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=LNzeKuOs5dA

That guy has been making fun of us for years and year with the most crazy tweak after the other... Wonder how many people he's managed to trick believing it's for real?

He used to claim to strip monster cable and wrap in ESR paper, same inside his electronics. Wonder if that's what that cable is stuffed with? Or if it's coconut fibre? biggrin.gif Anyway... he's hilarious.
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post #112 of 873
12/13/12 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes. The room is at least as important as the speakers. More so IMO. Great speakers will never sound great in a poor room, but speakers that are just 'good' can sound great in a properly treated room.
What deficiencies in the speaker does the room improve? And what is that "properly treated" room that does that?
Quote:
And the cost of treating a room is usually way less than that of buying 'great' speakers too.
There are "great" speakers that are not expensive. Room treatment on the other, can most definitely be expensive, uglifiy your room, and take a ton of time to research, understand, measure and properly implement. The start of this journey is a good speaker: the thing that generates the sound in the room. It is not in my opinion smile.gif, a room with a lot of treatment. You can actually make the sound of a "good" speaker worse than good by doing some of the most common advice given on forums. But maybe I am missing something and hence the above question smile.gif.
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post #113 of 873
12/13/12 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes. The room is at least as important as the speakers. More so IMO. Great speakers will never sound great in a poor room, but speakers that are just 'good' can sound great in a properly treated room.
What deficiencies in the speaker does the room improve? And what is that "properly treated" room that does that?
Quote:
And the cost of treating a room is usually way less than that of buying 'great' speakers too.
There are "great" speakers that are not expensive. Room treatment on the other, can most definitely be expensive, uglifiy your room, and take a ton of time to research, understand, measure and properly implement. The start of this journey is a good speaker: the thing that generates the sound in the room. It is not in my opinion smile.gif, a room with a lot of treatment. You can actually make the sound of a "good" speaker worse than good by doing some of the most common advice given on forums. But maybe I am missing something and hence the above question smile.gif.

 

 

Quote:
What deficiencies in the speaker does the room improve? And what is that "properly treated" room that does that?

 

 

None. Did I say that?  I can’t see where I did. Fact remains that putting great speakers in an untreated room is likely to make them sound like like crap.  OTOH, a properly treated room will make a good set of speakers sound as good as they can sound, and likely better than a better set of speakers in an echoey, reverberant, untreated room with modal issues and so on. I'm not going to argue this with you so if you disagree, I'd just let it go.

 

 

Quote:
There are "great" speakers that are not expensive. Room treatment on the other, can most definitely be expensive, uglifiy your room, and take a ton of time to research, understand, measure and properly implement. The start of this journey is a good speaker: the thing that generates the sound in the room. It is not in my opinion smile.gif, a room with a lot of treatment. You can actually make the sound of a "good" speaker worse than good by doing some of the most common advice given on forums. But maybe I am missing something and hence the above question smile.gif.

 

 

All rooms have modes. All rooms induce reflections. If you don't deal with that, then the sound is not going to be the best it can be, regardless of the equipment you use. 

 

If you prefer to put a lot of expensive gear into an untreated room, that's your prerogative. Please feel free to believe anything you wish. Meantime, if you get the chance, check out any professional sound studio and if you find one that has no treatments, please post pictures and a link.

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post #114 of 873
12/13/12 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post




None. Did I say that?  I can’t see where I did. Fact remains that putting great speakers in an untreated room is likely to make them sound like like crap.  OTOH, a properly treated room will make a good set of speakers sound as good as they can sound, and likely better than a better set of speakers in an echoey, reverberant, untreated room with modal issues and so on. I'm not going to argue this with you so if you disagree, I'd just let it go.




All rooms have modes. All rooms induce reflections. If you don't deal with that, then the sound is not going to be the best it can be, regardless of the equipment you use. 

If you prefer to put a lot of expensive gear into an untreated room, that's your prerogative. Please feel free to believe anything you wish. Meantime, if you get the chance, check out any professional sound studio and if you find one that has no treatments, please post pictures and a link.
+1
You see, amirm is trying to shill for electronics he sells, as he always does. He tries to cast negative light on acoustic treatments in an attempt to steer people's attention away from it and redirect it to electronic components. Because acoustic treatments really do make appreciable difference unlike those expensive amps and preamps he sells, to cast negative light on it, he has to distort and hide things about it. And if that doesn't get him anywhere, he downright lies.
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post #115 of 873
12/13/12 at 10:43am
Keith, it appears you are missing some context from the statements of amirm. Not sure how you could have missed it as he's posted extensively about this stuff, for better and for worse. biggrin.gifTry this contentiously gargantuan thread for starters, if you want to get an idea where he is coming from, hopefully preventing a rehash of it all over again from ground zero within this thread.
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post #116 of 873
12/13/12 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Keith, it appears you are missing some context from the statements of amirm. Not sure how you could have missed it as he's posted extensively about this stuff, for better and for worse. biggrin.gifTry this contentiously gargantuan thread for starters, if you want to get an idea where he is coming from, hopefully preventing a rehash of it all over again from ground zero within this thread.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

+1
You see, amirm is trying to shill for electronics he sells, as he always does. He tries to cast negative light on acoustic treatments in an attempt to steer people's attention away from it and redirect it to electronic components. Because acoustic treatments really do make appreciable difference unlike those expensive amps and preamps he sells, to cast negative light on it, he has to distort and hide things about it. And if that doesn't get him anywhere, he downright lies.

 

Ah - thanks guys. I wasn't aware. I hope I haven't caused him to start up all over again - it was not my intention, and I have already told him I am not prepared to enter into an interminable discussion about an aspect of acoustical science that is well-known, well-documented and not really all that contentious. Your comments above have put his reply to me in good context, for which I thank you.

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post #117 of 873
12/13/12 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

As many of you know I have high end interconnects and power cords. I finally got around to trying various speaker cables. I tried wire from Purist Audio, JPS, Cardas, and Analysis Plus. They all sounded quite different. I even tried 4 different speaker cables models from Purist and they all had a different sonic signatures.

With many of the high end cables, the improvement was SO OBVIOUS that you don't have to be an enthusiast to notice. I am sure some of of you know this and still claim high end wire does nothing.
Since your all dying to know smile.gif my favorite was the Purist Audio Venustas. The sound stage was so much larger than some of the other cables. A nice smooth and a tad warmish sound with a very solid midrange that helps with dialog intelligibility. No hint of sharpness in the upper frequency region.. A nice upgrade particularly for movies.
Omg...thank you..finally someone who shares my same exact thoughts..I have tryed many many diff rent cables and power cords also and yes..they all have there own sonic diffrences!
I have upgraded all my speaker wire,interconnects,and yes power cords tto straight wire level 3 cresendos
And I'm in sonic heaven!..thanks for your post t-rex!
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post #118 of 873
12/13/12 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Diomania, this is one of the only forums on the internet where it is allowed for someone like yourself to preach their anti cable beliefs full time 24/7 without getting banned. Never two sides to the story because the swarm will smother out the "other side" as was done earlier in this thread. Motives for this? I can think of plenty at least in your case.
A shill? I could say the same, maybe you are on the payroll for a company/ies that would benefit from you convincing enthusiasts that higher end cables do nothing. The result being the customer now spends their money elsewhere in their systems and not on cables. Or are you merely a "professional hater" of the successfull cable company owners/engineers? You are clearly a hater of successfull people in general, and people who have expensive systems. It must be difficult listening to your home-theater-in a-box every night, after looking at the nice systems here on AVS. Oh, I forgot...maybe not because you believe that all cables, amps, processors, and avrs sound the same anyway. Denial is a very powerful thing...whatever gets you by.
A shill I am not. An ethusiast with an open mind and NO CONFLICTS OF INTERESTS I AM.
Once again, thank you for posting that link. I am sure it's wallpapered on your walls of your bedroom as you always keep it handy. That thread is an example that there can only be one view point on this forum and there is no room for a second. There are plenty of threads out there that show there are two sides to the glass or plastic toslink debate...just not on this forum.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1313377625&openfrom&1&4#1
Two thumbs up!...I know my audio quest vodka HDMI cable simply blew every HDMI cable I ever tryed right out ta the wata!
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post #119 of 873
12/13/12 at 5:02pm
actually, onaccounta the "science" in the forum name, I suspect that the majority of posters here buy into the absence of significant differences between different cables, and recognize the reasons that even cancer drugs have to be tested double blind so that we don't unintentionally think a drug has an effect when it doesn't. But the saving grace for subjectivists is that a properly designed scientific study can either reject the null hypothesis (which has to be something lie "these 2 cables sound the same") or not. See, in science, you have to accept the reality that you can never "prove" a negative. But those of us who are human beings are reasonably well advised to stop at some point and consider whether like other huan beings our reactions to things are colored by our subconscious, in ways that are completely and forever out of our control. Those who are either nonhuman or superhuman can, of course, ignore these things entirely.
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post #120 of 873
12/13/12 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Omg...thank you..finally someone who shares my same exact thoughts..I have tryed many many diff rent cables and power cords also and yes..they all have there own sonic diffrences!
I have upgraded all my speaker wire,interconnects,and yes power cords tto straight wire level 3 cresendos
And I'm in sonic heaven!..
I have couple questions for you. 1. Which forum did you hang out on before registering here back in October? 2. How do you go about standing waves in your room?
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