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Amplifiers & Receivers for use with the JTR Speakers - Reviews - Amps, Monos, Separates, Pro/Pre - Page 2

post #31 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm open to the idea of an amp making a difference vs an avr at high spl's it's just that it's hard to imagine these speakers sounding any better since they already sound so effortless.
It is just fine to feel that way just as it is to feel/think the opposite. There is no correct or incorrect answer to ones satisfaction. It is the ones that say "Thats how I feel/think so should you". That way of thinking is incorrect.
Mabey if you were interested you could call Jeff and see what he thinks. That is an answer I would be interested in hearing. It would still not change my feelings or thoughts on my amp.
I am constantly craving knowledge on how to make my system better. Reread the post above that quotes Robobob on transients. It explains my system to me. I have had my system for a year now and I know it inside an out. I also know how to put it to the test and what material to use to test it with. When it passes to my ear on that material then I am satisfied. Without the amp it may still pass 95% of the time but for me and mine that is not good enough. It Drives me crazy actually.
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 11/19/12 at 7:53am
post #32 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You start your post with 2 words: "Maximum Level." Then you proceed to calculate the power requirements at 10 dB BELOW that maximum level. rolleyes.gif
Recalculate the power requirements for 0 dBFS, (or for MVC 0.) Your paltry 40 watts suddenly becomes 400 watts. Then recalculate for 0... with a paltry 3 dB of headroom. Now you need 800 watts!.
The other thing you don't take into consideration is room size and listening distance. In a large, lossy, open room, the SPL loss over distance is considerable and can add considerably to the power requirements.

If you only want -10 MVC, you *might* have a point. rolleyes.gif
However, I seriously doubt anyone considering these speakers would want to limit himself to -10 MVC! In fact, I have no doubt that most people interested in these speakers are mostly interested in their dynamic output capability. In that respect, even though these speakers are very high sensitivity, there is NO WAY I would ever advise someone to power them with a "cheap AVR."
eek.gif
Craig

How was his math wrong? Reference is 85db with maximum peaks at 105db (including transient peaks). Assuming a 95db/w/m sensitivity speaker, it would hit 105db at 10 watts. Now assume you lose 6db for distance and that the speaker is 4ohms so you lose another 3db. That speaker would hit 105db at 80.6 watts. And that is to hit the transient peaks. If your amp is rated at 120wpc RMS, it would have no issues hitting max short term transient peaks at 105db without clipping.

Heck, a 101db/w/m sensitivity speaker like the Noesis would hit 105db with 2.5 watts. Subtract 9db for distance and a 4ohm speaker and you would still only need 20.1 watts to hit 105db.

I like and use separate amps in my systems and drive my much less sensitive speakers with a beefy 600wpc but they need it a heck of a lot more than my old JTR T8's did.
Edited by mrlittlejeans - 11/19/12 at 7:48am
post #33 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

It is just fine to feel that way just as it is to feel/think the opposite. There is no correct or incorrect answer to ones satisfaction. It is the ones that say "Thats how I feel/think so should you" that way of thinking is incorrect.
Mabey if you were interested you could call Jeff and see what he thinks. That is an answer I would be interested in hearing.
It would still not change my feelings or thoughts on my amp.
I am constantly craving knowledge on how to make my system better. Reread the post above that quotes Robobob on transients. It explains my system to me. I have had my system for a year know and I know it inside an out. I also know how to put it to the test and what material to use to test it with. When it passes to my ear on that material then I am satisfied. Without the amp it may still pass 95% of the time but for me and mine that is not good enough. It Drives me crazy actually.
Chris

Right on Chris ...

I have had this conversation with Jeff and not surprisingly, he is a guy who likes powerful amps feeding high sensitivity speakers for the very reasons Robobob describes. Just as there are very low frequencies in modern sound tracks, there are dynamic moments that go beyond theoretical reference and it is those moments where the added power and sensitivity can make a difference (be it gun shots, explosions, lead guitar or dino foot steps). If an AVR is able to re-create these events to your satisfaction great. There are those who have empirical data on this and those who are dealing with theoretical. The lines are blurred by variability of the source material and the failure to acknowledge this is myopic. IMHO smile.gif
post #34 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

All the science and numbers aside (I still think when people do numbers, there may be missing variables).

Such as? With digital audio, peaks have a hard ceiling. From, that, we can work backwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

I am more interested in anyone having experienced first hand comparing using the JTRs with just a receiver (state receiver brand/name, etc), then added amps and then are there significant difference in terms of dynamics, jump out of seat impacts, etc... I have so far only heard people say 'I have this amp and it sounds great, or I have this receiver, and it sounds great', but no direct comparison from someone who actually first used an amp, then upgraded...

While not JTR's, as I don't own a pair, with my similarly-efficient (96dB/W/m) Tannoy 12" Dual Concentrics, I did an actual controlled test, with careful level matching and blind listening. and my result was no audible difference between a compact and lightweight Meridian integrated amp rated at ~60W/ch continuous (might be 55, might be 65; whatever), and Nelson Pass-designed boat-anchor class separate amp from Adcom rated at ~300+W/ch continuous. (It should go beyond saying to any reasonable person that one wouldn't expect the two amps - both of which are competently designed - to sound different for reasons other than output potential unless one of them were broken.) When playing highly dynamic orchestral material.

Results from sighted tests and/or tests without level matching are too colored by listener biases and confounding variables (such as different base levels) to be of any use at all to determine these types of sonic differences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Anyways, just to give you an idea of what I am talking about.. I have had my Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 speakers for 10 years now, and powering them with my Marantz receiver (at the time I bought the Marantz, it cost me a pretty penny and was supposed to be better than all the other brand names available).... I was quite happy with the setup and if anyone asked me, I would tell them they sound excellent. Then just a few months back, my friend bought an Onkyo 709 (a very entry level onkyo), and he tested it out with my speakers.. and suddenly my entire room lit up with new dynamics, and suddently everything became clearer and more effortless and the soundstage seems far, far bigger.. this is NOT my imagination... both my friend and I experienced it... both have zero expectations.. in fact, the expectations would be the Onkyo would perform worse as it's far cheaper than my marantz... but in fact, blew the marantz out of the water.. and i WILL take any bets on blind tests on this one because it truly is night and day..

Sighted with no level matching, so not relevant. That said, what you describe sounds an awful lot like listening with loudness compensation on vs. loudness compensation off. Does the Onkyo unit have Dolby Volume and/or Audyssey DynamicEQ, and can you verify that neither the "volume modeling" component of Dolby Volume nor Audessey DynamicEQ were engaged?
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Then I told the sales guy about it (the one who sold me the whole setup about 8 years ago).. he said he's not surprised as amplifiers, even entry level ones today have far more juice to them.. the Wharfedale needs lots of power and the Onkyo puts out i think 130 watts per channel and i think my old marantz only puts out 80 or 100, not sure which...

You do realize that going from 80W to 130W is just barely above a de minimis change, right? About 2dBW.

Also, if you had a bruiser Marantz box ca. 2002, it probably had greater output into transient peaks than the new Onkyo. Compare the mass of both boxes. Both employ standard Class AB circuits, so energy efficiency will be similar and therefore mass of the box is a good indication of peak output capability. (The Onkyo may have chip amps, but that's not going to materially change the efficiency.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

***there are dynamic moments that go beyond theoretical reference ***

Does he (or you) have actual evidence of any actual program material that gets louder than 105dB peaks in the main channels when listened to at cinema reference? It's certainly possible, but is a violation of the standards.

But instead of hand-waving and even theoretical explication, what would be interesting is some tests by people using these highly efficient speakers to see how much power they're actually using. There is just such a test readily available here.

The difference is, if one is using a prepro/AVR with volume control calibrated by listening-position measurements. So no need to set a "comfortable listening volume" first. Just set to 0dB (or -10dB, wherever the maximum one typically employs) and use the 240Hz tone (to get above the crossover) to see how much voltage one actually requires to play at that level. Then use the equations in the above link to get your actual peak requirements.

Any takers?
post #35 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Such as? With digital audio, peaks have a hard ceiling. From, that, we can work backwards.
While not JTR's, as I don't own a pair, with my similarly-efficient (96dB/W/m) Tannoy 12" Dual Concentrics, I did an actual controlled test, with careful level matching and blind listening. and my result was no audible difference between a compact and lightweight Meridian integrated amp rated at ~60W/ch continuous (might be 55, might be 65; whatever), and Nelson Pass-designed boat-anchor class separate amp from Adcom rated at ~300+W/ch continuous. (It should go beyond saying to any reasonable person that one wouldn't expect the two amps - both of which are competently designed - to sound different for reasons other than output potential unless one of them were broken.) When playing highly dynamic orchestral material.
Results from sighted tests and/or tests without level matching are too colored by listener biases and confounding variables (such as different base levels) to be of any use at all to determine these types of sonic differences.
Sighted with no level matching, so not relevant. That said, what you describe sounds an awful lot like listening with loudness compensation on vs. loudness compensation off. Does the Onkyo unit have Dolby Volume and/or Audyssey DynamicEQ, and can you verify that neither the "volume modeling" component of Dolby Volume nor Audessey DynamicEQ were engaged?
You do realize that going from 80W to 130W is just barely above a de minimis change, right? About 2dBW.
Also, if you had a bruiser Marantz box ca. 2002, it probably had greater output into transient peaks than the new Onkyo. Compare the mass of both boxes. Both employ standard Class AB circuits, so energy efficiency will be similar and therefore mass of the box is a good indication of peak output capability. (The Onkyo may have chip amps, but that's not going to materially change the efficiency.)
Does he (or you) have actual evidence of any actual program material that gets louder than 105dB peaks in the main channels when listened to at cinema reference? It's certainly possible, but is a violation of the standards.
But instead of hand-waving and even theoretical explication, what would be interesting is some tests by people using these highly efficient speakers to see how much power they're actually using. There is just such a test readily available here.
The difference is, if one is using a prepro/AVR with volume control calibrated by listening-position measurements. So no need to set a "comfortable listening volume" first. Just set to 0dB (or -10dB, wherever the maximum one typically employs) and use the 240Hz tone (to get above the crossover) to see how much voltage one actually requires to play at that level. Then use the equations in the above link to get your actual peak requirements.
Any takers?

I know you're skeptical.. but that's all healthy.. but, the Onkyo vs Marantz is no joke.. the difference is not just volume.. it's clear as night and day difference.. I am not your typical audiophile and can tell you all the nuances and spell out the diffrences, but all i can say is this.. it's a hell of a LOT better... and I am just saying the difference in 80-130 watts may the reason but I am not saying that's the REAL reason.. that's just the only reason I can think of.. and nope, none of the audessey, etc, are engaged.. it's just out of the box... and it plays better at ALL volumes.. so, not just a louder is better thing... from clarity, to fuller sounds, to just bigger soundstage...

Believe me, I consider myself a skeptic and a science guy in general... have read thousands of books (a bookworm from young)... that's why i keep saying that although numbers don't lie, most of the time we are just simply lacking 'some variables'... if you have all the variables down, then of course... but in these cases, we just don't know what variables we're mising.. you keep asking me 'what'.. and if i know, i'll tell you...

But being a scientist also means that if the data don't match up with 'what is observed' then we must reject the 'said data' and try to find out more...

In fact, I am so sure about the day/night comparison between my marantz and the onkyo that I am willing to bet you anything... you can blindfold me and make me tell you what is playing.. and if i don't guess it 9 out of 10 times, you can carry off all my equipment... smile.gif In fact, not just me, i think anyone could tell the difference...

Now, don't get me wrong again... I am not going from 'there's a difference between the onkyo and the marantz' to therefore, there must be a difference between the eventual onkyo 3010 powering the jtrs vs extra amps... that's why i wanted to know if anyone can tell me their 'own observations'....
post #36 of 67
I do not think that I could tell the difference between a 500 wpc , a 1000 wpc , or a 1500 wpc (same brand) powering my system. I am pretty sure I could not. But when it is my 4311 avr powering my T12's vs My D-Sonic 1000 wpc at reference level on the source material that I know that will plain and simply reveal this differences in a blind test at my house with my euipment I can tell EVERY time. I also know that one could substitute a SC-37 or SC-57 for the 4311 and I know I can tell the difference. I already have. All 3 AVR's heat up like crazy at reference for any lenght of time and hurt my ears. D-Sonic could go past reference but since reference is my goal I do not care about past at this point.
This observation is based solely on the above euipment and that euipment only. People who do not have JTR speakers cannot understand how Clear and Revealing these speakers are. Even the T8's are less revealing than the T12's which are less revealing than the Noesis 212's.
All other combinations of speakers, avr's , and amps I do not know mabey they don't matter. Since I have the JTR's it is not my business to care or to try to guess at answers. That definately doesnt help answer the OP's questions but it does confuse alot of others.
JTR speakers are a whole new hybrid breed of speakers and subwoofers. This new type speaker needs to be heard not just read about. Or better yet it needs to be put into action (both seen and heard) before anyone speaks about it. And if the only JTR speaker anyone has heard/listened to was the T8's than that is not the same as hearing the T12's or the Noesis212. If you think it is "Shame on You"!!!
T12's or the Noesis 212 powered by a big quality amp will produce a cleaner sound at reference level than any top AVR will.
That is plain and simple !!
Now I am tired of beating a dead horse so Good Luck All !!!
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 11/19/12 at 11:30am
post #37 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

I know you're skeptical.. but that's all healthy.. but, the Onkyo vs Marantz is no joke.. the difference is not just volume.. it's clear as night and day difference.. I am not your typical audiophile and can tell you all the nuances and spell out the diffrences, but all i can say is this.. it's a hell of a LOT better... and I am just saying the difference in 80-130 watts may the reason but I am not saying that's the REAL reason.. that's just the only reason I can think of.. and nope, none of the audessey, etc, are engaged.. it's just out of the box... and it plays better at ALL volumes.. so, not just a louder is better thing... from clarity, to fuller sounds, to just bigger soundstage...

I'm "skeptical" because what you describe sounds a lot like typical sighted evaluations with unmatched levels. All kinds of things are readily heard, but they don't actually translate to real differences beyond small level differences. And small level differences are basically never heard as that, but rather as things like...clarity," "fullness," and "bigger/wider/deeper soundstage."

Try again with matched levels and get back to us. And if things come out the same, get the Marantz benched because it may well be broken. Or check the settings, because something's making it not an apples-apples comparison.
post #38 of 67
West Virginia Chris - You could always take the Richard Clark amp challenge if you really think you can tell the difference every time. You could pocket a quick $10k.

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm
post #39 of 67
Right Fighters and Instigators stand in the way of the rest us truly enjoying audio.
The only "test" I need to do is take out the amp and let the 4311 power the system. Then put on Eagles concert from Melbourne and crank it to reference. After about 10 minutes my ears start to fatigue and I no longer want to listen at that level so I back it to -10.
With the D-sonic powering I can listen at reference for the whole hour and a half. No fatigue and my ears are not hurting.
That is how it is.
ds-21
I have seen your post on Audioholics you are definately one who likes to stir sh*t.
Bruised egos on the internet really? YOU WIN !!!
Common sense has to be in the decision process somewhere.
Chris
I can only tell my system at my house not any others.
Edited by countryWV - 11/19/12 at 11:26am
post #40 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

West Virginia Chris - You could always take the Richard Clark amp challenge if you really think you can tell the difference every time. You could pocket a quick $10k.
http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm
Mr littlejeans I cannot win any challenge. I hope you can see that it is only my system I am refering to Not any other.
And the 3 avrs I have had and tried and my D-sonic amp in my rig. Thats it. Nothing else. I was trying to help the OP or offer first hand and current experience with my equipment.
The difference is comparing my avr powering 7 speakers at reference level vs a 1000 wpc amp powering them. I don't know why anyone can not.
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 11/19/12 at 11:21am
post #41 of 67
Cleaned things up a little. Watch the insults or you'll be removed.

K
post #42 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Mr littlejeans I cannot win any challenge. I hope you can see that it is only my system I am refering to Not any other.
And my 3 avrs and my D-sonic amp in my rig. Thats it. Nothing else. I was trying to help the OP or offer first hand and current experience with my equipment.
Chris

Actually guys, why the insult? This thread is set up specifically so that people can talk about their personal experiences... I am truly not interested in anyone making anyone else feel stupid just for voicing their opinions.

I believe Chris, I too can hear significant differences between amps / receivers..

Here's my $10,000 challenge... you guys can come over to MY house, and blind fold me, and put on both my amps and i can tell you the difference everytime.. in fact, you can blindfold yourself and you too can tell the difference, i am sure of it... cause all my friends went 'WOW' the new Onkyo kicks ass....

I do believe that given 2 amps with the exact same specs or can play cleanly and that the specs are not faked or recorded differently, you can't tell the difference.. but it's obvious a lot of amps sound different.... in the same speaker setups...

I think everyone's argueing about different things here...

Again, I welcome everyone's opinion because this would make my buying decision... but please no name calling...
post #43 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Bruised egos on the internet really

My "bruised ego" comment above clearly referred to believing passionately that one heard differences in sighted listening only to have them completely and utterly disappear when listening with biases and confounding factors such as level differences removed. Not anything about the internet. That's happened to many people who have actually tried to learn something about what's audible and not by actually doing controlled subjective listening. Myself certainly included.
post #44 of 67
I to am running T8's off an emotive XPA-3 on a dedicated 20A circuit and I get hiss from the speakers. RMK, what is a cheater on the power cord that you mentioned? I have tried everything and cannot eliminate that hissing. its audible when no signal is being fed, but still irritates me.
post #45 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by radman12 View Post

I to am running T8's off an emotive XPA-3 on a dedicated 20A circuit and I get hiss from the speakers. RMK, what is a cheater on the power cord that you mentioned? I have tried everything and cannot eliminate that hissing. its audible when no signal is being fed, but still irritates me.

Aaa.. this sucks.. no emotivas for me then. Hopefully the Crowns don't produce the hissing. I don't think I can stand the hissing as well.
post #46 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by radman12 View Post

I to am running T8's off an emotive XPA-3 on a dedicated 20A circuit and I get hiss from the speakers. RMK, what is a cheater on the power cord that you mentioned? I have tried everything and cannot eliminate that hissing. its audible when no signal is being fed, but still irritates me.
A 3 to 2 prong adapter. Should cost around a buck or two so they are very inexpensive.You can find them at any hardware store.
They are frowned upon but It was my only reasonable solution. They work well.
Chris
post #47 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by radman12 View Post

I to am running T8's off an emotive XPA-3 on a dedicated 20A circuit and I get hiss from the speakers. RMK, what is a cheater on the power cord that you mentioned? I have tried everything and cannot eliminate that hissing. its audible when no signal is being fed, but still irritates me.

Cheater plugs are only used if you have a ground loop which causes hum, not hiss. Unless the Emotiva is faulty, the hiss is not coming from it. It is specified to be > 98 db down relative to 1 watt output which will be inaudible even with high efficiency speakers. To verify this you only need to short an input to the amp and see if the hiss remains. The likely culprit is upstream. The power amp is ampifying the noise being produced by your driving source. The Emotiva's specified gain is on the high side (32 db) which will exacerbate the problem some. This is why you have to be careful with your component selection with high efficiency speakers if you are sensitive to noise.

Cheers,
OldMovieNut
post #48 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Aaa.. this sucks.. no emotivas for me then. Hopefully the Crowns don't produce the hissing. I don't think I can stand the hissing as well.
I have been told that not grounding the AVR is probably the problem or grounding the avr should solve it . I never had a problem with my first 2 amps but the D-S was immediate. A cheater plug fixed it. It was a hum not really a hiss. If a hiss is occuring I would check all my cables.
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 11/20/12 at 5:10am
post #49 of 67
Emotiva XPR-1 and XPR-2 info from a credible source on the Emo boards. Saw them at EmoFest back in September. They are ready to go. Size / footprint is the same as the XPR-5 -- being 5U, 9.5" tall.
Code:
XPR-1 (1 KW into 8 ohms, 2 KW into 4 ohms)

XPR-2 (600 W into 8 ohms, 1.2 KW into 4 ohms)

Both will be $1699.

Release date in December 2012.

I have an XPR-5 and get no hiss from my speakers with ear close to speaker. I DO get some hiss from my subwoofers though, which use a Class D amp. The gain on the XPR's is 29dB. The XPR-5 running full bore is only warm to the touch in back with only 1.5" of top clearance in a Mitsubishi TV stand. A heck of a lot cooler than my AVR and Satellite receiver. It is STILL big and heavy though.
post #50 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

How was his math wrong? Reference is 85db with maximum peaks at 105db (including transient peaks). Assuming a 95db/w/m sensitivity speaker, it would hit 105db at 10 watts. Now assume you lose 6db for distance and that the speaker is 4ohms so you lose another 3db. That speaker would hit 105db at 80.6 watts. And that is to hit the transient peaks. If your amp is rated at 120wpc RMS, it would have no issues hitting max short term transient peaks at 105db without clipping.
Heck, a 101db/w/m sensitivity speaker like the Noesis would hit 105db with 2.5 watts. Subtract 9db for distance and a 4ohm speaker and you would still only need 20.1 watts to hit 105db.
I like and use separate amps in my systems and drive my much less sensitive speakers with a beefy 600wpc but they need it a heck of a lot more than my old JTR T8's did.

You are assuming to only lose 6 dBs from distance, are you sitting real close? Even if you lose that much you have to consider if the AVR can even drive 4 ohm speakers which by nature usually dip lower. The problem with most AVR's and JTR's would be the 4 ohm load at reference and the AVR not providing enough power for that load and spl together which is where I usually hear smearing of sounds at reference. My JBL speakers were even more sensitive than the JTR's but also a 4 ohm load and it completely shut down my AVR(Denon) on all the great scenes.
post #51 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

[ You are assuming to only lose 6 dBs from distance, are you sitting real close?

That's a reasonable assumption.

In real rooms, it's often much less than that.

In especially heavily "treated rooms," as I believe yours to be (though I could be wrong), the falloff from distance may be closer to the 6dB-with-doubling one sees outdoors or in anechoic chambers.

Such treated rooms may be fine or even optimal for movies, but music sounds lifeless to me (and many others) in such rooms. So such rooms are not, in my view, remotely desirable. It's perhaps odd that music sounds better (more spacious, more vibrant, more lifelike, more "they are here" rather than "welcome to canned music land") in a fairly "normal" domestic living room with ordinary furnishings than in a highly treated room, but. Then again, perhaps with big omnidirectional speakers, such as the mbl's - which have sounded like crap every time I've heard them since my first experience with them at KaDeWe in Berlin in 1998 through AXPONA last year - Duevels, or B&Os, a heavily-treated room would be ideal. But I digress, as the speakers discussed here (JTR's) are not omnis but fairly narrow-pattern speakers. Good bass trapping (not the silly room mutilation that often happens, but false walls with constrained layer construction) is useful to smooth out response in the modal region, but otherwise, "treatments" are generally worse-sounding than the original room. (To me, at least.)

Also, I'm curious, how loudly were you listening when the JBL theater stack shut down your Denon AVR? Perhaps there was something really nasty in the impedance curve of those speakers, left unattended because of the presumption that they'd be driven by ballsy theater amps. Did you ever measure it?

At any rate, the answer to "how much power do you need for x speakers" would be well answered by someone measuring the output voltage required to reach cinema reference peaks at her/his listening position. Preferably someone who currently practices the sensitive speakers + big power approach.

Above, I posted a diyaudio.com thread that had some test tones and instructions on how to use them. It will be interesting to see if anyone actually does the test and posts the results, or if hand-waving is the only "evidence" offered. But FWIW, someone recently posted this test on the Tannoy user's group. (Except for the Noesis, the JTR speakers can in a way be thought of as Tannoy Dual Concentric knockoffs.) The highest reported answer there is 1V.
Edited by DS-21 - 11/20/12 at 8:48am
post #52 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

That's a reasonable assumption.
In real rooms, it's often much less than that.
In especially heavily "treated rooms," as I believe yours to be (though I could be wrong), the falloff from distance may be closer to the 6dB-with-doubling one sees outdoors or in anechoic chambers.
Such treated rooms may be fine or even optimal for movies, but music sounds lifeless to me (and many others) in such rooms. So such rooms are not, in my view, remotely desirable. It's perhaps odd that music sounds better (more spacious, more vibrant, more lifelike, more "they are here" rather than "welcome to canned music land") in a fairly "normal" domestic living room with ordinary furnishings than in a highly treated room, but. Then again, perhaps with big omnidirectional speakers, such as the mbl's - which have sounded like crap every time I've heard them since my first experience with them at KaDeWe in Berlin in 1998 through AXPONA last year - Duevels, or B&Os, a heavily-treated room would be ideal. But I digress, as the speakers discussed here (JTR's) are not omnis but fairly narrow-pattern speakers. Good bass trapping (not the silly room mutilation that often happens, but false walls with constrained layer construction) is useful to smooth out response in the modal region, but otherwise, "treatments" are generally worse-sounding than the original room. (To me, at least.)
Also, I'm curious, how loudly were you listening when the JBL theater stack shut down your Denon AVR? Perhaps there was something really nasty in the impedance curve of those speakers, left unattended because of the presumption that they'd be driven by ballsy theater amps. Did you ever measure it?
At any rate, the answer to "how much power do you need for x speakers" would be well answered by someone measuring the output voltage required to reach cinema reference peaks at her/his listening position. Preferably someone who currently practices the sensitive speakers + big power approach.
Above, I posted a diyaudio.com thread that had some test tones and instructions on how to use them. It will be interesting to see if anyone actually does the test and posts the results, or if hand-waving is the only "evidence" offered. But FWIW, someone recently posted this test on the Tannoy user's group. (Except for the Noesis, the JTR speakers can in a way be thought of as Tannoy Dual Concentric knockoffs.) The highest reported answer there is 1V.

I agree to a point. My room does sound great for music but I have not tried it upstairs in a normal room to compare. My JBL's were the 3622N's at the time and the Denon was the 3310 or something like that. It was at calibrated reference levels using my test tones from my processor. It did not happen for every movie just enough to need more power at 4 ohms. Many AVR's put out less power at 4 ohms than 8 ohms, the Denon 5805 which has a real amp would have done just fine but that cost more than my separates(used) anyways. There was a recent GTG where people thought the SHO-10 sound better louder than the triple 8LP. I know the SHO-10 is a great speaker but I still think the 888LP can play louder so that did not make sense to me. Well they were using an AVR to power each and the difference was the SHO-10 was 8 ohms and the 888LP is 4 ohms which could have been the difference. As for sounding different, just at reference, one stays clear and smooth and the other starts to sound smeared or harder to hear certains sounds which is most likely a power at 4 ohm thing. I do believe if an AVR can put out enough power for reference with a 4 ohm load(or stable load) than their won't be a difference.
post #53 of 67
Hmm, interesting - that could have made a difference, we were just using my Pioneer receiver. I still thought the Triple 8's sounded more dynamic on movies (they were my slight favorite for movies) and the triple 8 center channel was the best of the day, I think we all agreed on that. 2 channel music was where the SHO's sounded the best to me, but once again, not by a very big margin. The eD's, 888's, and eD's sounded very similar to each other.

I wonder if anything would have gone differently if we had a separate amp.
post #54 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Hmm, interesting - that could have made a difference, we were just using my Pioneer receiver.

Was the Pio one of their Class D units?

If so, then the smart money's on any amp-caused differences being the interaction of the output filter and the loudspeakers. (And if it's only audible at high volumes, the relative sensitivity of the ear to HF sounds explains that, too.)

Look in the latest Stereophile for two very expensive Class D amp reviews: the Mark Levinson No. 53 and Anthem Statement M1. The measurements into the Kantor load are interesting. The ML unit follows the classic Class D pattern of rather variable treble response based on load. The Anthem is better.
post #55 of 67
Too bad you guys did not hear the DR's in all their glory, they are flooring me right now with my new EQ settings! They are tweaky like the DTS-10's. Do you know what the power is on that Pioneer at 4 ohms with all channels driven? I really don't care what an amp can do with one channel active, when does that ever happen besides 85 dB dialog.
post #56 of 67
I went from a Emotiva (Tons of Hiss) to Outlaw 7500 (no Hiss) on my T8's.
post #57 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMIE View Post

I went from a Emotiva (Tons of Hiss) to Outlaw 7500 (no Hiss) on my T8's.

I heard that the hiss only comes form the XPAs and not the XPRs... which is yours? Have you tried crown XLS? I heard they have no hiss as well.
post #58 of 67
You guys who are getting hiss from your Emotiva gear, you are powering very high sensitivity speakers with amps with a 32dB gain structure. Thats why you have hiss. The high gain of the Emo amps produce hiss on lots of gear, it's the nature of high gain amps. Emotiva is not a great match for high sensitivity gear. I know i had a xpa-2 and a xpa-5 with my JTR gear, it drove me nuts. Sold it all, running D-sonic 7 x `1000 M2 and not the slightest hiss to be had since the gain structure is much lower.
post #59 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

You guys who are getting hiss from your Emotiva gear, you are powering very high sensitivity speakers with amps with a 32dB gain structure. Thats why you have hiss. The high gain of the Emo amps produce hiss on lots of gear, it's the nature of high gain amps. Emotiva is not a great match for high sensitivity gear. I know i had a xpa-2 and a xpa-5 with my JTR gear, it drove me nuts. Sold it all, running D-sonic 7 x `1000 M2 and not the slightest hiss to be had since the gain structure is much lower.

i have a ati 3000 series amp with 28db gain with xlr, and 34db gain with rca, no hiss regardless of which i use as source
post #60 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

i have a ati 3000 series amp with 28db gain with xlr, and 34db gain with rca, no hiss regardless of which i use as source

Well, I'd say from experience that you are not the norm then. Emo stuff is not a good match with JTR gear IMO. I've never heard your ATI, so I can't really comment on it.
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