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Disney's BRAVE - Page 2

post #31 of 114
11/21/12 at 10:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badboi View Post

Dropouts on all 4 of my BD players with this disc (Oppo 83, 103, Panasonic BD75 and a Sony 470) HDMI to Marantz AV7005. Seems that TrueHD 7.1 discs are problematic for all my players. Walking Dead bd's are the same. Periodic dropouts here and there. Shouldn't be dealing with these issues this far in. Just sayin'.

Check you processor / receiver or plug one of the players directly into your television (selecting the 7.1 track),.

Wouldn't be surprised if you have an Onkyo or older receiver (or one that needs a firmware update)....

I had / never have had any issues from my players into my processor (in the majority).
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post #32 of 114
11/21/12 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Check you processor / receiver or plug one of the players directly into your television (selecting the 7.1 track),.
Wouldn't be surprised if you have an Onkyo or older receiver (or one that needs a firmware update)....
I had / never have had any issues from my players into my processor (in the majority).

Marantz AV7005. I'll check to see if there is a firmware update for this and see if that does the trick.
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post #33 of 114
11/21/12 at 11:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by badboi View Post

Marantz AV7005. I'll check to see if there is a firmware update for this and see if that does the trick.

And bypass your Marantz to your display (from a BD player). That will rule in the receiver immediately if things play without a hitch.
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post #34 of 114
11/21/12 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Have to agree with you there Todd fantastic Aq and Pq, I enjoyed it another Pixar success.

Very cool! smile.gif
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post #35 of 114
11/21/12 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Check you processor / receiver or plug one of the players directly into your television (selecting the 7.1 track),.
Wouldn't be surprised if you have an Onkyo or older receiver (or one that needs a firmware update)....
I had / never have had any issues from my players into my processor (in the majority).

Ok. Tried just about everything I could think of. Updated firmware on one player. Checked all the HDMI connections (as I was dusting my equipment earlier in the day). All connections were secure. I even replaced the HDMI cable off the Oppo 103. Still had droputs. Restarted everything and still random dropouts. But then something odd happened. Turned off equipment again, restarted, inserted disc. After the disc loaded and all the promos and FBI "we're going to castrate pirates" warnings were done, started the movie, and had to wazz. Hit the stop button. Came back, hit play, and no dropouts. Movie played through with no dropouts.

Looked and sounded amazing on my 9000 series 75" Samsung and Oppo 103.

Can't figure out why the stop/start worked, but it did.
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post #36 of 114
11/21/12 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by badboi View Post

Ok. Tried just about everything I could think of. Updated firmware on one player. Checked all the HDMI connections (as I was dusting my equipment earlier in the day). All connections were secure. I even replaced the HDMI cable off the Oppo 103. Still had droputs. Restarted everything and still random dropouts. But then something odd happened. Turned off equipment again, restarted, inserted disc. After the disc loaded and all the promos and FBI "we're going to castrate pirates" warnings were done, started the movie, and had to wazz. Hit the stop button. Came back, hit play, and no dropouts. Movie played through with no dropouts.
Looked and sounded amazing on my 9000 series 75" Samsung and Oppo 103.
Can't figure out why the stop/start worked, but it did.
I had dropouts as well. Twice. One as she gets on her horse (towards the end maybe?), and one right before the credits. Both repeatable.
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post #37 of 114
11/21/12 at 10:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffreyc View Post

To those of you experiencing audio dropouts with your copy of 'Brave' (Have only played 2D version so far) - I found by switching the player to output LPCM instead of Bitstream there were no dropouts
Tried on Oppo BDP-93 & Toshiba BDX3200


I tried this on my dad's setup and it worked. No more audio drop-outs after setting the player to decode ...
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post #38 of 114
11/22/12 at 4:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffreyc View Post

To those of you experiencing audio dropouts with your copy of 'Brave' (Have only played 2D version so far) - I found by switching the player to output LPCM instead of Bitstream there were no dropouts
Tried on Oppo BDP-93 & Toshiba BDX3200

That's a fix, but there's a problem in your receiver - may need a firmware update.
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post #39 of 114
11/22/12 at 6:39am
From my experiences during the last week current firmware updates haven't made a scrap of difference (At least not with the kit below)

Its been well documented that the suspected culprit is the branching file structure that disney have used to stop copying.
But quite why this is causing the dropouts has still not been conclusively identified
I would agree that a future firmware update may be called for - but would this be the player or AV receiver?

Have tried the disc on the following players and receivers : -

My current players Oppo BDP 93 (multiregion) & 103
Friends Panasonic DMP-BDT500 & Sony BDP 790

Receivers used (all running latest firmware)

Yamaha RX-A2010 (My current)
Denon AVR-2311 (My previous model)

And two friends have let me try the disc on theirs they are the Anthem MRX700 & Pioneer SC-LX56 (think only available in Europe) - one using the Oppo BDP 93 the other a Marantz UD7007

The problem cannot be reliably reproduced and can occur once or twice or even several times or even not at all whilst running the movie.
Only seems to affect Bitstream over hdmi. Analogue connections and optical/co-ax seem fine. And of course LPCM over hdmi

If you get the chance have a look at the Oppo 93 thread from about here

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1291855/official-oppo-bdp-93-owners-thread/23730


All the best
Edited by geoffreyc - 11/22/12 at 7:39am
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post #40 of 114
11/22/12 at 7:37am
Thread Starter 
AUDIO DROPOUTS

I have owned so much equipment over the last 5 years years including:

6 Blu Ray players (Panasonic, Oppo, Denon, Sony, another Sony, another Panny).
2 HD DVD Players (a1, XA1)
3 HDMI Surround Processors ( Halcro SSP-200, Halcro SSP, 100, ADA Mach IV IV)

Monoprice HDMI cables.

... And never, ever had an audio dropout ever via bitstream


When I see these issues, they are almost always traceable to an HDMI connection or owning a receiver.

Unless I have missed it, I've never seen this posted with a surround processor and I wonder if some of it is computing horse power (or lack thereof in some receivers - as well as firmware). You pay less for receivers in general and I wonder what is left out?
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post #41 of 114
11/22/12 at 7:53am
This the first incidence of dropouts I've experienced.

Remember the Star Wars boxset last year and the dropouts that a lot of us experienced? - I didn't experience a single problem

Interested about your comments about hdmi cables - maybe time for an upgrade!

I know the issue with 'Brave' has been reported to Oppo in the US so we'll have to see if a firmware update is forthcoming

The disc gets its UK release on Monday so I wonder if the UK version will have the same problems.
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post #42 of 114
11/22/12 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

AUDIO DROPOUTS
I have owned so much equipment over the last 5 years years including:
6 Blu Ray players (Panasonic, Oppo, Denon, Sony, another Sony, another Panny).
2 HD DVD Players (a1, XA1)
3 HDMI Surround Processors ( Halcro SSP-200, Halcro SSP, 100, ADA Mach IV IV)
Monoprice HDMI cables.
... And never, ever had an audio dropout ever via bitstream
When I see these issues, they are almost always traceable to an HDMI connection or owning a receiver.
Unless I have missed it, I've never seen this posted with a surround processor and I wonder if some of it is computing horse power (or lack thereof in some receivers - as well as firmware). You pay less for receivers in general and I wonder what is left out?

You should check out the Oppo 93 thread as this particular issue has something to do with the way Disney is authoring the disc in order to prevent piracy. I have never had a dropout until this disc with my equipment. Many different combinations of blu ray players and/or receivers and pre/pros are experiencing this issue with both older and more recent FW versions as well. Here is a quote from Bob Pariseau in the 93 thread about the issue.....................

I suspect what's going on is that the player has to terminate and restart the audio stream due to the insane branching file structure Disney has authored on this disc (purely in an effort to foil disc copying software). That would mean the same thing is happening with Bitstream and LPCM. HOWEVER, the nature of the LPCM output from the player and input processing in the AVR may make it possible for the AVR to begin the new audio stream without a noticeable delay. I.e., it takes the AVR longer to validate the newly starting Bitstream is "real".

At this point the problem has been noted on multiple players (different brands) played into multiple AVRs.

It remains to be seen whether Disney violated the rules of disc authoring, or simply drove a truck through a hole in the existing rules. Fortunately, the audio glitches are brief, and few in number.

Bob mentions a few posts up from this one that he watched Brave the first time and had NO drops. He then watched it again and DID have a drop. Just because you dont have a drop does not mean you will be immune to this issue completely as it is not consistent. It could also be that your particular equipment is fast enough to get around the branching file structure as it is reported that the newer Oppo 103/105 are fast enough to get around it.
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post #43 of 114
11/22/12 at 9:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

You should check out the Oppo 93 thread as this particular issue has something to do with the way Disney is authoring the disc in order to prevent piracy. I have never had a dropout until this disc with my equipment. Many different combinations of blu ray players and/or receivers and pre/pros are experiencing this issue with both older and more recent FW versions as well. Here is a quote from Bob Pariseau in the 93 thread about the issue.....................
I suspect what's going on is that the player has to terminate and restart the audio stream due to the insane branching file structure Disney has authored on this disc (purely in an effort to foil disc copying software). That would mean the same thing is happening with Bitstream and LPCM. HOWEVER, the nature of the LPCM output from the player and input processing in the AVR may make it possible for the AVR to begin the new audio stream without a noticeable delay. I.e., it takes the AVR longer to validate the newly starting Bitstream is "real".
At this point the problem has been noted on multiple players (different brands) played into multiple AVRs.
It remains to be seen whether Disney violated the rules of disc authoring, or simply drove a truck through a hole in the existing rules. Fortunately, the audio glitches are brief, and few in number.
Bob mentions a few posts up from this one that he watched Brave the first time and had NO drops. He then watched it again and DID have a drop. Just because you dont have a drop does not mean you will be immune to this issue completely as it is not consistent. It could also be that your particular equipment is fast enough to get around the branching file structure as it is reported that the newer Oppo 103/105 are fast enough to get around it.

All valid points. In my postings and readings, I've never seen anyone with a dedicated SSP ever complain fo drop outs. SSPs are typically overbuilt and not like receivers. The fact that unpacking bitstream is the issue but not LPCM (no unpacking needed) tells me it might be an issue with a buffer, processing power, etc.

I'm only looking at what I've read and I can't find a single instance of a SSP having this issue (I don't really count the Anthem as a dedicated SSP for a number of reasons - eg a VP inside and likely a taxed processor)

But in reading threads in Meridian SSP, Theta, ADA, Classe', Bryston, Datasat, etc, I haven't yet seen one complaint of any audio drop out - perhaps I missed something but I'm pretty involved in reading those threads).

I'm not saying this as fact but as pure observation and anecdotal
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post #44 of 114
11/22/12 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

All valid points. In my postings and readings, I've never seen anyone with a dedicated SSP ever complain fo drop outs. SSPs are typically overbuilt and not like receivers. The fact that unpacking bitstream is the issue but not LPCM (no unpacking needed) tells me it might be an issue with a buffer, processing power, etc.
I'm only looking at what I've read and I can't find a single instance of a SSP having this issue (I don't really count the Anthem as a dedicated SSP for a number of reasons - eg a VP inside and likely a taxed processor)
But in reading threads in Meridian SSP, Theta, ADA, Classe', Bryston, Datasat, etc, I haven't yet seen one complaint of any audio drop out - perhaps I missed something but I'm pretty involved in reading those threads).
I'm not saying this as fact but as pure observation and anecdotal

That makes sense. I dont doubt that level of equipment could be advanced and fast enough to get around this type of issue. The problem is most of us are mere mortals and have to settle for the Onkyo's, Denon's , Yamaha's, etc........... biggrin.gif
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post #45 of 114
11/22/12 at 10:11am
I heard this movie uses Dolby's 96khz upmix?
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post #46 of 114
11/22/12 at 1:01pm
The idea that Disney is using wacky seamlessly-branched playlists to discourage piracy is totally inaccurate. These extra seamlessly-branched playlists are nothing new and perfectly legitimate. They are used to provide multiple language renders - i.e. replacing certain titles, signs and other text in different languages. The Brave US 2D release provides English, French and Spanish renders (selected when you pick the language at the beginning of the disc).

With that being said, it's still possible that the branching is indeed the culprit for audio dropouts. If someone wants to try and match the dropouts by pausing after a dropout and noting the timestamp, here are the branching points from the BDInfo report:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1155731/new-unofficial-blu-ray-audio-and-video-specifications-thread/4650#post_22609473
Code:
FILES:

Name            Time In         Length          Size            Total Bitrate   
----            -------         ------          ----            -------------   
00952.M2TS      0:00:00.000     0:00:44.586     246,921,216     44,304          
00953.M2TS      0:00:44.586     0:00:28.278     127,733,760     36,136          
00954.M2TS      0:01:12.864     0:03:02.473     842,201,088     36,924          
00955.M2TS      0:04:15.338     0:00:58.016     315,002,880     43,436          
00956.M2TS      0:05:13.354     1:19:25.302     22,456,928,256  37,701          
00957.M2TS      1:24:38.656     0:02:49.252     809,926,656     38,283          
00958.M2TS      1:27:27.909     0:05:24.282     1,365,350,400   33,683          
00959.M2TS      1:32:52.191     0:00:45.128     242,626,560     43,011
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post #47 of 114
11/22/12 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema Squid View Post

The idea that Disney is using wacky seamlessly-branched playlists to discourage piracy is totally inaccurate. These extra seamlessly-branched playlists are nothing new and perfectly legitimate. They are used to provide multiple language renders - i.e. replacing certain titles, signs and other text in different languages. The Brave US 2D release provides English, French and Spanish renders (selected when you pick the language at the beginning of the disc).
With that being said, it's still possible that the branching is indeed the culprit for audio dropouts. If someone wants to try and match the dropouts by pausing after a dropout and noting the timestamp, here are the branching points from the BDInfo report:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1155731/new-unofficial-blu-ray-audio-and-video-specifications-thread/4650#post_22609473
Code:
FILES:
Name            Time In         Length          Size            Total Bitrate   
----            -------         ------          ----            -------------   
00952.M2TS      0:00:00.000     0:00:44.586     246,921,216     44,304          
00953.M2TS      0:00:44.586     0:00:28.278     127,733,760     36,136          
00954.M2TS      0:01:12.864     0:03:02.473     842,201,088     36,924          
00955.M2TS      0:04:15.338     0:00:58.016     315,002,880     43,436          
00956.M2TS      0:05:13.354     1:19:25.302     22,456,928,256  37,701          
00957.M2TS      1:24:38.656     0:02:49.252     809,926,656     38,283          
00958.M2TS      1:27:27.909     0:05:24.282     1,365,350,400   33,683          
00959.M2TS      1:32:52.191     0:00:45.128     242,626,560     43,011

Thanks for the info, but my question then is why is this title suddenly causing audio drops for people like me (and many others from the sounds of it) who have NEVER had one before this title? Seems a bit ironic and it would certainly suggest that there is something different about this title compared to previous discs........... confused.gif
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post #48 of 114
11/22/12 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks for the info, but my question then is why is this title suddenly causing audio drops for people like me (and many others from the sounds of it) who have NEVER had one before this title? Seems a bit ironic and it would certainly suggest that there is something different about this title compared to previous discs........... confused.gif

Agreed - I have never had a dropout before this.

I am still contemplating returning it as a defective disc mad.gif
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post #49 of 114
11/22/12 at 5:36pm
I was able to grab a copy from Amazon today for $9. Look forward to checking it out when it gets here Tuesday. It's been a while since I watched a Pixar movie.
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post #50 of 114
11/22/12 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks for the info, but my question then is why is this title suddenly causing audio drops for people like me (and many others from the sounds of it) who have NEVER had one before this title? Seems a bit ironic and it would certainly suggest that there is something different about this title compared to previous discs........... confused.gif

Well, the combination of TrueHD and the multi-lingual seamless branching is new on this release if I am not mistaken. Finding Nemo looks to have the same setup, so it will be telling to see if it has the same problems.

I just felt the need to defend their seamless branching, since I think it's a pretty cool usage of Blu-ray technology. There was even a featurette about how they make multiple renders for international theatrical and video releases on one of the Pixar BDs, but I forget which one at the moment.
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post #51 of 114
11/22/12 at 6:52pm
Audio dropouts during the first 5 mins or so on my Oppo 80 -- first time ever with any disc. Fortunately, it played fine on 2nd attempt redface.gif
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post #52 of 114
11/22/12 at 10:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema Squid View Post

I just felt the need to defend their seamless branching, since I think it's a pretty cool usage of Blu-ray technology.

Cool usage cool.gif

but far from seamless mad.gif
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post #53 of 114
11/23/12 at 7:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema Squid View Post

Well, the combination of TrueHD and the multi-lingual seamless branching is new on this release if I am not mistaken. Finding Nemo looks to have the same setup, so it will be telling to see if it has the same problems.
I just felt the need to defend their seamless branching, since I think it's a pretty cool usage of Blu-ray technology. There was even a featurette about how they make multiple renders for international theatrical and video releases on one of the Pixar BDs, but I forget which one at the moment.

Toy Story 3 did it too
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post #54 of 114
11/23/12 at 7:50am
Almost like Disney has introduced a dvd layer switch mechanism to bluray. wink.gif

Viewed plenty of recent releases lately, just Brave and Pixar Collection 2 I'm having drop outs with. Still running a Pioneer SC-07 so I'm tempted to place the blame there. But who knows where the gremlins reside.
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post #55 of 114
11/23/12 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Toy Story 3 did it too
Many of their releases have it. I meant that it was new that they were using the combo of both TrueHD *and* seamless branching.
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post #56 of 114
11/23/12 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema Squid View Post

Many of their releases have it. I meant that it was new that they were using the combo of both TrueHD *and* seamless branching.

Sounds like a match made in hell though.
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post #57 of 114
11/23/12 at 9:46am
Its a first class mix, anyone with a height set up notice any info?
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post #58 of 114
11/24/12 at 9:51pm
Not one audio dropout on a three-year-old Samsung with no firmware updates in over two years.
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post #59 of 114
11/25/12 at 2:33am
That happened to someone else I know with their new Oppo 103, then the next time they played it - dropouts!

They seem to occur randomly but sometimes not at all.
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post #60 of 114
11/25/12 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffreyc View Post

That happened to someone else I know with their new Oppo 103, then the next time they played it - dropouts!
They seem to occur randomly but sometimes not at all.

Interesting. It was thought that the 103/105 might be immune from this issue, but obviously not.
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