Video Camera for Slow-Mo Swing Analysis

Blurring has nothing to do with frame rate. Whether the bat is blurred depends on shutter speed, which can be set to any value, regardless of frame rate - if you want no blur, you use a high shutter speed. The frame rate determines how fine you can break down the swing (how many segments per swing).

So, how many frames per second do you need to analyze a bat swing - 60fps, slowed down? 120fps, slowed down?

The Sony Action Cam does 720 at 120fps.

I wish I knew what cameras are available, >60 fps, that can set shutter speed in high speed video mode. I don't know of any currently offered but I'd like to find any that are. It is difficult to determine reading most specs whether the camera is capable of setting set shutter speed in HSV mode. Downloading the full manual and going through it carefully is better but impractical with the many camera models. I believe that there are several available models, DSLR's, that will allow setting shutter speed at 60 fps.

Do you have the SONY Action Cam? It sets shutter speed? What is the fastest shutter speed?

The Casio cameras models F1(2008), FH20, FH25, and last the FH100(2010) had excellent excellent capabilities for sports analysis and were affordable. They are available used or left over new stock but are more than $300.

It is a good idea to find high speed videos on Youtube or Vimeo to confirm that the camera is capable of small motion blur. A golf club swing viewed from the side where the club head is moving 100 MPH across the frame is very good for seeing motion blur. The behind view is not good as the club head is moving away from the camera. Only look at ones in direct sunlight - where very fast shutters are possible - as indicated by obvious sharp shadows in the videos. Search - Camera model + high speed video (or frame rate, 120 fps) + golf, etc. There is no way to tell whether the camera was operated to minimize motion blur. Some cameras in AUTO modes may select faster shutters speed.

Some more discussion on high speed video cameras. http://www.kinovea.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?id=435

After you get the camera Kinovea is free video analysis software that allows comparisons, side-by-side, of two videos, batters, etc. Kinovea has many other analysis capabilities.
Edited by Chas Tennis - 11/20/12 at 12:12am

I don't know the speed or motions within a bat swing. For tennis there is a lot of very rapid arm & hand rotations similar to the very rapid baseball pitching motion (which is even a little faster I think). For those rapid motions 60 fps is not enough. Also, 60 fps will not catch the ball close to impact as often as you might like. What accounts for the ball's trajectory, the bat swing direction or how far above or below on the ball the impact point is? To determine how far the bat moves between frames see the frame rate discussion in the Kinovea thread above and use estimated bat swing velocity.

For analysis of tennis strokes I do mostly stop-action single frame and much less viewing in slowed motion. Remember also that if software creates false frames between recorded frames, the false frame could obscure something real that is very fast. That would happen on the tennis serve, for example. Most of the problems that I see on my tennis strokes are obvious errors that do not need high speed so any video would do and 60 fps would be very useful. For producing entertaining videos at 30 fps playing speed, to show swings for better viewing, the false frames probably do an excellent job.
Edited by Chas Tennis - 11/19/12 at 9:14pm

There is a bridge camera - panasonic fz200 with high speed capability
120 fs at 720p or 240 fp and VGA
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008MB6ZX0/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Honestly - I don't think this would be enough, but this is highly unlikely you find anything faster in consumer rate cameras.
Edited by bobk77 - 11/19/12 at 11:39am

The Casio ZR cameras 100, 200, 300 and probably the new ZR 1000 (?)cannot set shutter speed in high speed video mode -much to the disappointment of golfers. You can find that information on the internet and, I believe, in the Casio user's manual for each model in Notes for some models.

The Sony I believe has a very wide angle lens which distorts. The Sony as well as all these CMOS cameras have some degree of Jello Effect distortion that will distort the image. The more lines of resolution the larger the JE distortion since it is caused by a slight delay between the time each sensor line is read out. JE distortion is for you to determine if you want to do accurate analysis. The Casio FH100 has small JE distortion. See Kinovea forum thread on cameras for JE discussion.

Find some YT videos for each camera that you are interested in. If you can't find videos with small motion blur & JE distortion then you can't be sure the camera is capable of high speed video with sharp & accurate images. Remember though that often the camera was not operated optimally to minimize motion blur.
Edited by Chas Tennis - 11/20/12 at 12:26am

Another interesting camera for this could be the new GoPro Hero3 Black Edition. It does 1440p-48, 1080p-60, 960p-100, 720p-120 and WVGA-240 !!!

If you have a simple tripod and the 1/4-20 mount it could be a perfect tool to watch via wireless to your smart phone right there on the spot.

I have a Panasonic TM700 that does pretty awesome 1080-60p, but it's nothing like the video you showed above. Definitely need some higher frame rates to get what your looking for there.

Cheers,
Pete

My old sony hdv hc3 high def actually has mode knon as"golf mode". Takes a of frames for 15 secs so, plays them back slowly.The only real use is for analyzing
your golf swing.

The GoPro controls exposure via shutter, so actually in good light it will go to exactly the kind of short shutter speeds you need. Manual won't really be necessary; can probably just set it to 720p/120 and enjoy. Even at a 360 degree shutter it'll probably be very good.

Check the specs with the user's manual or elsewhere but I believe that the Nikon V1 and J1 cameras are severely limited in recording time in high speed video mode. 5 seconds? If true that short a recording time is a show-stopper for my application.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/39424744
Edited by Chas Tennis - 11/25/12 at 9:26am

just wondering if you ever came up with a solution? i'm in the same boat for the upcoming baseball season. Granted it is for a youth baseball team but nonetheless still like to get something for pitching and swing mechanics. I checked out all the above mentions as well as the jvc gx250 which says it shoots at 300fps. i'm new to all this so I am not quite up to speed on shutter speed and things like that.

any new info on this?

For a related topic (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1454343/jvc-ex250 I decided to see what I could do with ordinary equipment. I pulled a 1080p60 clip from last year shot with a common 1080p60 camera. I ran it through the slow motion tool of my favorite editing software and got this: https://vimeo.com/58252577. To see what would happen, I did it again and got it even slower: https://vimeo.com/58254299. Even though now grainy from all the processing, you can still see the muscles in her upper arm after she misses the ball.

These two clips are not going to win awards or match the OP's clip of Carlos Serrao. The bat and ball blur, but, if the goal is to analyze body motion, I think it works.

This type of post processing for playback cannot add information to the original video. The processing duplicates frames or fabricates false frames that cannot be used for accurate analysis. It has a very useful role for entertainment only. For analysis you would be less likely to be mislead by examining the original video at 60 fps.

A high speed video of a tennis serve. 240 fps and 1/10,000 shutter speed for small motion blur.
https://vimeo.com/27528701

Watch the elbow bones turn rapidly. That upper arm rotation (internal shoulder rotation) contributes the most to racket head speed at impact. At 240 fps the video shows 7 frames. The twitch-like rotation lasts about 0.03 second. At 30 fps (0.033 sec between frames) you might catch the rotation in one frame or maybe none. At 60 fps (0.017 sec between frames) you should get it in just one frame.
Edited by Chas Tennis - 1/26/13 at 10:42am

Of course it can't. Everybody is smart enough to figure that out.

But, showing people how to use common video equipment and software may be useful. Posting what I did should demonstrate to sports perfectionists both the limitations and opportunities of everyday equipment. The FH100 you used in the tennis shot may be hard to find and expensive. On a quick search, I found one for $900. The common Sony I used for the softball shot was $300.

It would be up to the batter to see what value is in a 60p clip slowed down. He/she might learn more equipment is necessary.

But for a family guy with a family camera try to coach or help coach a kids' team, some 60p might be good enough.

Someday my wife will let me touch her FZ150 camera and I will get a chance to compare the low res 240fps to the higher res 60fps pointed at a softball player in the family.

Bill
Edited by bsprague - 1/26/13 at 11:55am

if i could find a fh100 i would be all over it! it's like trying to find bigfoot!!! hahaha

can some explain what the following means?

[High Speed Video] 1280 x 720 pixels, 30 fps (MP4) (Sensor Output is 120fps) / 640 x 480 pixels, 30 fps (MP4) (Sensor Output is 240fps)

does this mean it records at 30fps and upconverts??? i'm totally lost here

edit--- got my answer... Thanks Chas!

What camera are you writing about?

panasonic fz200

No - camera downconverts (slows down) from 120fps to 30fps @1280 x 720 pixels and from 240fps to 30fps @604x480