Hair Salon Setup - Noob

you want real advice worth money?

get yourself an spl meter and tell us how loud you want it in there
then tell us how tall the ceilings are.
tell us if they are going in the ceiling pointed down or in the walls pointed sideways.
tell us how long the run of speaker cable is going to be per speaker.
these questions must be answered.

the answers waiting for you are..
wire size
maybe a different speaker and amplifier
if there is any solid method of using time alignment
if there is any reason for a calibrated microphone
various 2ch to 6ch stereo upmixing options that could help or hurt

As great as that offered advice is, it may be vastly over analyzing the basic concept.

 

All you really need is a cheap AVR, that has inputs for an iPod, and various analog sources(the red and white/Right and Left) RCA plugs.  The Red and White plugs will be for your  audio sources, such as a CD player/Tape player etc...  The iPod connector may be via USB, or a RCA converter.

 

The next item that you will need is a speaker selector, ala monoprice.com , about $20.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10903&cs_id=1090305&p_id=6857&seq=1&format=2  

 

Then you need speakers.  Here is a pair of 8" for about $55ea.(3x$55=$165)

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=108&cp_id=10837&cs_id=1083703&p_id=4104&seq=1&format=2

 

Lastly, speaker wire.  500' of 16g for about $75.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023903&p_id=3846&seq=1&format=2

 

So, depending on the AVR/Receiver you get, let's say about $150, plus $20, for SS, plus $165 for speakers, and lastly 500' of speaker wire for $75 comes out to $410.

 

 

All you ned to do is install the three sets of speakers and run their speaker wires to the speaker selector.  Then run one set of wires from the speaker selector to the AVR.

 

Plug in your audio source(iPod, CD player, ect...) to the AVR.

 

Plug in the AVR.

 

Select audio source.

 

Adjust volume.

 

...and done!

 

Even if you got another set of speakers(the linked SS has output of four speakers), you will come out to under $500.  

 

Not a bad set up for a salon, IMHO.

 

 

The only downside would be that each set of speakers will play the same source.

 

The only other downside is that SS does not offer individual volume control, but for $72, you could get one that does offer individual volume control for each speaker: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10903&cs_id=1090305&p_id=8232&seq=1&format=2

 

Best 'O luck.

over analyzing the basic concept?
'the basic' tells me the person was able to get here and ask the question, and that shows no sign of time needed to talk about the difference between RCA cords or speaker wire.

sorry..
i dont support being oppressed to the point where i dont see any labels on the back of the amplifier telling me what inputs and outputs are there.

the point of being a 'total noob' is simply this..
there is an amplifier that plugs into the wall.. some speakers.. and some speaker wire to connect the two.
anything after that is no longer considered 'noob' category.

the person came here saying they didnt want to gain much more than some speakers existing in the room... and that raises the question we should ask the original poster,
what are you looking to avoid?

because most people that say they want something simple and dont really care enough to have any questions about it.. they will just go into the store and pick whatever fits their budget.
you didnt do that.. so what is it you are looking to avoid?

Again, a much simpler system is the way to go. First, if all the speakers are in a single room, you do not need need zone volume controls. Second, there will be no stereo separation so running the entire system on a single channel in mono is the way to go. A commerical grade 70 volt output amplifier is the system of choice for a background low level music system. All speakers are equipped with a 70 trnsformer. Remember hat all cabling MUST be CL-2 minimum rating if above a drop ceiling or in a wall.

TOA makes a great series of mixer/amps and they have multiple inputs so each each source can be easily selected. Each source will need to have a Y-cable to derive a mono signal but that is no problem at all in this circunstance.

transformers , when all they asked for was 6 speakers?
that is probably goofy.
price wise, the radio needs to be bought anyways.
the radio might get used again later for any movie decoding.
..and i did forget to say something about not needing to use a speaker selector switch because you can switch between 2 or 5 using the control on the amplifier.


price .. distortion .. number of speakers

chances are the number of speakers always wins over price or distortion.
but i think it is cute to say something about the transformers becoming more sophisticated than drumming away at 60hz
because like a speaker.. a transformer doesnt sound perfect for the whole frequency response (but at least it doesnt move, or that it does).
probably the time when the transformer has lower distortion numbers than the amplifier or preamp, so it doesnt really matter.

it's not BC bud, it's crystal meth.

Evidently you are not aware of how a professional distributred audio system works. There is no outrageous "distortion" when yusing a properly designed 70 volt system. It is the norm all over the world for distributed audio.

what is evident is when i go someplace .. see a speaker in the ceiling .. hear all the missing slew and confuse the same gap in the air as distortion byproduct .. then go to another place and hear the same cardboard.


dont get me wrong..
i'm not looking to say something about low distortion being impossible.

..just the fact that a lot of people dont care to view distributed systems because of their bad sound quality of the past .. and then factoring in any differences in cost .. as well as any possible difference for the final result when it is absorbed by the listener.


distributed systems have been around for thousands of years, and it doesnt come as a suprise to see them perfected.
it comes as a surpise that there are thousands of parts on a shelf waiting to be sold.
this isnt the 1980's were more distributed systems went up each month compared to new home audio systems (and sometimes plus portable boom boxes).


i just thought it was too much because it wont have any use outside of the hair salon and there isnt much option to get it 'dialed in'

The biggest problem with poory installed and in some areas (illegally installed) background music systems is that SOME installers just mount a speaker on a flat grill, cut a hole in the ceiling tile and clamp the speaker in. WRONG. Any quality installation will use at minimum an enclosure called a Top Hat which is a heavy steel 'back box' can lined with what is essentially undercoating. and Roxall. This serves 2 purposes; one, it provides an acoustical enclosure for the speaker and second, it is required in many locales to keep the smoke/fume/ fire rating of the tile intact. There are a variety os speakers available that range from 5.00 crap to 3 way, full range 30+ watt rating with high intelligibility and damn decent FR. Attempting to achieve stereo reproduction in a background music system is an exercise in futility. The first reason is - stereo for which person in the room? Second, ceiling mounted downward facing speakers will automatically nullify any potential streo effect simply by way of the mounting.

I also have used -quite successfuly- SoundSpheres with a 360 degree radiation pattern great fidelity and very high intellgibility.

Curious. Why would there be any concern about using the system outside of the salon as that is what is is being used for., and second, what "dialing in" aside from basic B/T controls and volume would you be looking to do in a non stereo reproduction environment that is commercial and noisy?

i've seen distributed systems strung up, wired up with grid fence, tacked up with gelatin organics

they've been big enough that the whole system had ripple.

times when you would run a wire near something and the phase in the wire would be thrown off.. so you'd have to go in there and wrap a transformer to get the phase back where it needed to be.

times when the line was long and accumulation was needed, and then that accumulation threw off everything and another ring had to be added.

times when there was interference causing an ESR clog and a magnet was needed to suck up the electrons before they would accumulate.

times when a person would lay back in the cut and live, only to hear of a magnet gone dead or a wire got cut or a speaker was destroyed or a factory had the wires ruined because of whatever chemical put into the air caused a bunch of electrical characteristic changes.


distributed systems can be a stereo thing if you run 'em in stereo.
just depends on how you grid the speakers because a square or rectangle on one side isnt going to stereo up with another square or rectangle on the other side.
the two closest speakers will.. but the two furthest speakers wont (and that is waste)
doing a line of one and another line of the other speaker channel right next to eachother would work in stereo for that little bit of area on down the line.


there certainly is a time and a place for a distributed system .. its just sad there isnt much material to play on the system once installed.
but i've been listening for a while and maybe there are still some that havent heard the new music generation other than the hiphop and pop on the FM radio.
(electronica is one .. dubstep is another one)

've seen distributed systems strung up, wired up with grid fence, tacked up with gelatin organics

they've been big enough that the whole system had ripple.

times when you would run a wire near something and the phase in the wire would be thrown off.. so you'd have to go in there and wrap a transformer to get the phase back where it needed to be.

times when the line was long and accumulation was needed, and then that accumulation threw off everything and another ring had to be added.

times when there was interference causing an ESR clog and a magnet was needed to suck up the electrons before they would accumulate.

times when a person would lay back in the cut and live, only to hear of a magnet gone dead or a wire got cut or a speaker was destroyed or a factory had the wires ruined because of whatever chemical put into the air caused a bunch of electrical characteristic changes.


distributed systems can be a stereo thing if you run 'em in stereo.
just depends on how you grid the speakers because a square or rectangle on one side isnt going to stereo up with another square or rectangle on the other side.
the two closest speakers will.. but the two furthest speakers wont (and that is waste)
doing a line of one and another line of the other speaker channel right next to eachother would work in stereo for that little bit of area on down the line.


there certainly is a time and a place for a distributed system .. its just sad there isnt much material to play on the system once installed.
but i've been listening for a while and maybe there are still some that havent heard the new music generation other than the hiphop and pop on the FM radio.
(electronica is one .. dubstep is another one)

Question: What drugs are you on?

now these options are yours to make...

at 50 or 60 dB you might not gain anything at all from adjusting the equalizer .. especially if the speaker's frequency response is already almost flat.
but at 60 - 70dB that need could grow to be more realistic, if even only for the highs or midrange.

for 60ft of cable .. the wire size chart says to use at least 14 gauge, but if your market is anything like it is here - 12 guage is easier to find and it is also a bigger wire and the chart says 12 guage is good for 120 feet.
the chart also says to avoid runs longer than 50ft because of the ability to transfer high frequencies is diminished.

what that might mean for you is..
placing the two furthest speakers from the receiver on the surround channels and adjusting the surround equalizer (a seperate equalizer for the front and the rear inside the receiver menu) to bring the treble back up.

the standard dolby upmix from stereo to 5.1 should work in 'regular' surround sound mode.
there are other modes that alter the sound (the midrange and treble and bass all change to something rather largely different)
there are also some surround modes that try to throw everything to the center speaker and run the music as if it were a movie, and this is one to avoid.
i havent had my center channel on in a long time.. so i dont remember what mode exactly does what, i just know there is a normal then a movie and then a music choice.
i also know the newer receivers come with one more upmix option with the new dolby decoders.


as for the time alignment..
i will tell you the first three that i would try
these are kind of a toy, but they are a tool and they can help - especially when you pick one yourself that you find satisfactory.
the obvious choice at first would be to measure from the speaker to the floor and try that.
another choice would be to try and aim just over the head of any adult.
and another choice would be to measure from the speaker to the floor .. then the speaker to the wall
.......with those two measurements above, one of two things could be done:
1. you add them together
2. you subtract them

and yet another option would be to measure the distance from one speaker to the other and try that.
...and yet another option would be to look at the shape of the cone and try to get a bit of an idea of how the 'smoke rings' will leave the cone - because as the ring goes towards the floor it will get bigger and bigger.
to finish, you look and get an idea of where those rings will come into contact with eachother.
you could use that distance where the rings meet to the ceiling and try that for distance.. or you could go from the rings meeting to the floor and try that distance.
.....you could even find the rings and measure from the speaker to the ring, and then from the ring to the ceiling.
again you would either add those two together or subtract them.


one of those time alignment options should help more than the other.
what you are looking for is room fill.
maybe you want it .. maybe you want to avoid it .. and both options should be in the list of time alignment methods.

see.. it matters because a room filled with audio can still hold a conversation clearly - compared to a room filled less, but harder to talk over and hear clearly.
in the end, a person will say 'i cant hear you clearly' and a response might be 'well the volume is turned down really low' .. and that wont be good enough because it is already too late.
......and sometimes the main area of the room might not be loud or hard to hear another person speak, but off to the side somewhere might be much worse.



other than that..
you'll probably jst go out there and get what you want and put it together.
how you do that is going to be up to you.
i would look at the speaker you want and see what it says about a box on the back of the speaker or no box and let the soundwaves from each speaker mix up in the ceiling.
because they say the speaker is designed to use the back of the ceiling (or the wall) as a box .. but does it say how big or small that space really should be?
and even then.. if it says what size of box it needs ........... it doesnt say if the speaker hole should be at the bottom of the box or in the middle.

i think the most common mistake when choosing a box for a speaker is when the cubic volume is right, but there wasnt anything said about if the hole is in the center or down at the bottom AND if the back of the box is close to the rear of the speaker or pushed back further away to give some space back there.
it matters a bunch when the 'hole' in the output content gets patched.


i think that is about all there is to say about it.. other than determining if it is better to simply clamp the speaker to the ceiling or use bracing.
it is probably safer to solder the speaker wire onto the speaker tabs, and then nail the speaker wire to something to catch the speaker from falling and hitting somebody in the head.
but that usually doesnt happen unless a tile gets wet and the whole tile falls to the ground.. yet then again, maybe the tile simply fell out of the ceiling.
to be extra safe, you could glue some of the speaker wire to the speaker itself .. that way the speaker tabs wont get any chance to snap causing the speaker to fall to the floor anyways.


another way to do it is to use the distributed system type spoken about above .. install it, then twist the phase response back and forth until the response fits the way you want it.

^^ This guy has no clue whatsoever about commercial background music systems. He is DEFINITELY doin some serious drugs. he is just rambling to fill up space and trying to impress folks with 100% nonsensical ravings. Too bad it isn't April 1st.

when people have something to say.. the post is long like mine (check the length of an article written about something on the internet).
when the person doesnt have anything to say .. the post is half or a third of the size (or even less).

**edit**

how are you going to connect 5 speakers to a 4 channel speaker selector?
i read the description and i'm not even confident the thing will work right ... because i cant see the picture clearly.
if each speaker has a volume control and an A/B switch .. then that would do something for 4 speakers.
you said you were getting 3 pair.. so i thought you were going to use 5 and keep an extra speaker.


you could always adjust the volume inside the receiver or simply turn off the extra speakers ... but if you've got people working, it would be easier for them to find the volume knob for the speaker near them and turn it up or down to taste.
so yah.. decent call on the speaker selector switch.
Edited by anwaypasible - 11/24/12 at 7:46pm

I know I post overly long stuff occasionally, but at least I am aware that it's often more about lacking either time or rigor to simplify.

There's a great quote for this (actually two, you can decide whether you want to rely on 400 year old wisdom or 100 year old wisdom)

“I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead.” Mark Twain Couldn't write his way out of a paper bag, clearly.

"The present letter is a very long one, simply because I had no leisure to make it shorter." Blaise Pascal: Pascal's theorem, the hydraulic press, the syringe, etc etc. Guy obviously knew nothing.

edit: I never shoulda started with the quotes because I CAN'T STOP MYSELF

Twain:

“The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.”

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”

“Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.”

“I respect a man who knows how to spell a word more than one way”

Some fella named Einstein

“Once you can accept the universe as being something expanding into an infinite nothing which is something, wearing stripes with plaid is easy.”

Gotta say it's the "infinite nothing" and "nothing which is something" that I struggle with. In my poor little brain, the nothing turns into a black vacuum, which isn't exactly "nothing."
Edited by JHAz - 11/25/12 at 9:28am

OK, in a hair salon -likely one big room- all the speakers are at the same level hence ONE volume control on the amp. No selectors are needed. With a 70 volt system, you can have damn near as many speakers as your want./need as long as the power requirement of the speaker array (each with its own transfoprmer )is under -by at least 20%- of the rated audio power of the amp.

There is no "phasing issue" and what was all that silliness about magnets and phase loops, etc. ?

If there are private rooms, then all that is necessary is a step 70 volt attenuator in each room. The amp is set to a maximum comfortable level with all zones attenuators at full, then you just back down a [particular zone. Easy and simple to install and quite reliable.

the distributed system is basically one speaker channel.. and then 10-20-30-40 speakers or more connected.
grocery stores have 'em in the ceiling.


phasing issue... well there is more than one definition of the word depending on how or where the word is used.
insulated wire has come a long way since the cloth wrapped stuff from like 1930

the other phase issue is the final sound from the speakers in the ceiling.
there are typically three types of results:
1. you go in there and the audio from the speaker sounds like it is forward and outwards, as if glowing out from the wall
2. the audio from the speaker sounds like it is pushed back.. comparable to somebody with farsighted vision and thick glasses (their eyeballs look small behind the glasses)
3. in the middle between the above two is a spot where the audio sounds like it is one with the room, and looking up to find the speaker might not happen right away.


its 5 speakers from 5.1 (or you could not use the center channel and be with 4)
otherwise maybe one of the 7.1 receivers will upmix 2 channel to 7.1 and that could get you 7 speakers.
or the distributed system will get you more speakers.


i think it is easy to choose:
1. do you want gaps with less audio inbetween speakers or do you want the sound to be full? (kinda like light from a spotlight in the ceiling.. do you want the floor to be lit completely with the light from the spotlight or some circles on the floor and the rest of the room lights up with ambient light?)
2. do you want stereo sound?.. because stereo will sweep the room if you can hear the other channel.

if a hair salon went with stereo.. i would probably put a left channel on one side of the chair (not above it.. to the side , in the middle between two chairs) and then place the right channel on the other side of the chair.
if you dont want the speaker right above you, i would put the speaker in the hallway area in the middle of the room (typical of a shop where the chairs are on the wall each side)

that way the stereo effect will happen for all chairs (unless you run out of speakers.. but the speakers can be spread out until the gap is too quiet)
a distributed system has two choices:
1. there are no gaps of volume difference between the speakers, even standing under the speaker (or close to it)
2. there are easily heard gaps of volume difference between the speakers.

you could still get stereo sound from a distributed system.. but you would need one for the left channel and one for the right channel.

another big question is..
are you going to be there for the customer if they move or twitch their head because of some audio panning from one speaker to the other?
its a valid question as to whether the person moves their head or not.
or do you switch to mono and avoid it altogether?

^^ Forget about stereo. It doesn't make sense in that environment for the clearly stated purpose of background music. Besides, the hair dryers would blow the soundstage away in any case.

A 70 volt system is a commercial grade amplifier and speaker arrangement where each speaker has its own matching transformer attached to the speaker and has selectable taps for the desired wattage at each speaker. The output impedance of the amp is very high (around 500 ohms) and thus allows the use of multiple speakers as long as the total wattage deired for all the speakers on the system is at least 20% UNDER the max rated output wattage for the amp. This is the type of system that is in hundreds of thousands of offices, malls, etc. There are no speaker selector switches necessary.

Individual speakers can be located in a private suite or office and and enclosed area speakers can be equipped with a stepped attenuator to controle in that particular room(s).

A single pair cable is run from the amp to all the speaker transformers and all are paralleled. The silliness about phasing in this case is total nonsense. In this type of install, there is ONLY a mono source as stereoo is thoroughly useless in any type of a non theatrical or home/studio setting. All that is required is for all transformers to be wired to the single pair cable run using the same polarity. The speaker cable can be hundreds of feet long and usually never needs to be over 14 awg.

As this is a downward facing, celing mounted speaker array, there is no "soundstage" to deal with.

You REALLY need to read up on the basic concepts of distributed audio and celing mounted speakers. Your perceptions are WAY off base for what the OP asked for and HOW ceiling speakers operate acoustically in this type of environment. There is ONLY a mono signa-l NO STEREO. Please try to comprehend that FACT.

Wow - thats some good sh!t
Edited by MandM - 11/27/12 at 1:12am

^^ Must have smoked a LOT recently.