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Odd Netflix issue - X-High/HD no longer available - Page 12

post #331 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

It is assumed that you are referring to Dish Network or DirecTV. I watch quite a bit of PBS via satellite and can tell you that I have never seen anything close to the same quality via Netflix streaming. One needs a 1 meter satellite dish and FTA DVB-S2 satellite receiver in order to view PBS programming. The satellite is AMC-21 located at 125° West, transponder 24. All the HD programming is H.264 (MPEG-4) at 12 Mbps and the audio is Dolby Digital at 448 Kbps with dialnorm set to -31 (unity).

Correct. I mean DirecTV. And, there is definitely a dip in quality compared to 780P. All the PBS I watch comes over DirecTV. But it is very much better than I would have hoped for, and it is a lot better than a lot of people see. Someone said I am one of the few people who has Netflix's CDN. I don't know what that is or how he knew it. Obviously something I said in that post.

Floyd
post #332 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

Someone said I am one of the few people who has Netflix's CDN. I don't know what that is or how he knew it. Obviously something I said in that post.

It must have been because you mentioned that you have SuperHD from Netflix, there is a thread here. If you have hip waders then you may want to put them on before reading that thread wink.gif.
post #333 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

Someone said I am one of the few people who has Netflix's CDN. I don't know what that is or how he knew it. Obviously something I said in that post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

I'll have to watch the short clip again. Maybe it only cycles up to 5800 and stays there. I probably am seeing 11 different encodes, There is something called PAR 1:1 which is unfamiliar to me.

It doesn't really "cycle"--it could theoretically skip directly to the highest bit rate or start with any of them and skip any of them on the way to the highest it can handle. Depending on available bandwidth you might never see the highest ones. That clip just puts a label on each of them. "PAR" is Pixel Aspect Ratio, the shape of the pixels. Resolution of one of the encodes is, for example, 640x480, which if used to express a picture with 16:9 AR has to do so with non-square pixels (4:3). Only the 16:9 shaped resolutions have square pixels, being 1280x720 and 1920x1080.
Quote:
Streaming is new to me, so what is Netflix's Open Connect CDN, and how did could you tell that I had it?

The streaming services like Netflix use Content Delivery Networks to get the streams to you. These are companies which have "server farms" around the country. Netflix principally uses three of these: Level 3, Akamai and Limelight (Amazon's AWS service is also involved but they don't send video from their machines). Last June or July they announced that they'd created their own single-purpose CDN called Open Connect and started trying to get ISPs to sign up to access it. Though they got most of the ISPs outside of the US connected, they only got one major US ISP signed up (Cablevision) and a bunch of little local ones (they make a point of mentioning the fledgling Google Fiber service, but it's currently tiny, serving only some portions of Kansas City). At CES this year they announced "Super HD", being some higher bit rate video encodes and a handful of 3D titles. They made this new stuff available ony to customers whose ISPs are participating in Open Connect. Therefore the vast majority of us with broadband service provided by the major cable MSOs such as Comcast, Time Warner, Cox, Verizon, Charter and AT&T do not have access to Super HD or 3D video from Netflix. Super HD consists of additional 1080p encodes at 4300- and 5800 Kbps on most HD titles (only available for about a month), so when you mentioned 5800 Kbps I knew that your ISP was connected to Open Connect. The rest of us are currently limited to 3850 Kbps 1080p and ostensibly will be until our ISPs capitulate to Netflix's demands rolleyes.gif.

TWC has spoken out against Netflix's tact, saying that they're holding Super HD "hostage" and that their networks are fully capable of handling the additional traffic through the CDNs which Netflix is currently using. Netflix is, of course, trying to dump those companies which will improve their bottom line and remove them from dependence on them to respond to any problems which develop.

Google "Netflix Super HD" and "Netflix Open Connect" for more info.
post #334 of 429
Thanks for the info. You've brought me up to speed quickly. It's nice when people go to the trouble your did.

Floyd
post #335 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post


It doesn't really "cycle"--it could theoretically skip directly to the highest bit rate or start with any of them and skip any of them on the way to the highest it can handle. Depending on available bandwidth you might never see the highest ones. That clip just puts a label on each of them. "PAR" is Pixel Aspect Ratio, the shape of the pixels. Resolution of one of the encodes is, for example, 640x480, which if used to express a picture with 16:9 AR has to do so with non-square pixels (4:3). Only the 16:9 shaped resolutions have square pixels, being 1280x720 and 1920x1080.
The streaming services like Netflix use Content Delivery Networks to get the streams to you. These are companies which have "server farms" around the country. Netflix principally uses three of these: Level 3, Akamai and Limelight (Amazon's AWS service is also involved but they don't send video from their machines). Last June or July they announced that they'd created their own single-purpose CDN called Open Connect and started trying to get ISPs to sign up to access it. Though they got most of the ISPs outside of the US connected, they only got one major US ISP signed up (Cablevision) and a bunch of little local ones (they make a point of mentioning the fledgling Google Fiber service, but it's currently tiny, serving only some portions of Kansas City). At CES this year they announced "Super HD", being some higher bit rate video encodes and a handful of 3D titles. They made this new stuff available ony to customers whose ISPs are participating in Open Connect. Therefore the vast majority of us with broadband service provided by the major cable MSOs such as Comcast, Time Warner, Cox, Verizon, Charter and AT&T do not have access to Super HD or 3D video from Netflix. Super HD consists of additional 1080p encodes at 4300- and 5800 Kbps on most HD titles (only available for about a month), so when you mentioned 5800 Kbps I knew that your ISP was connected to Open Connect. The rest of us are currently limited to 3850 Kbps 1080p and ostensibly will be until our ISPs capitulate to Netflix's demands rolleyes.gif.

TWC has spoken out against Netflix's tact, saying that they're holding Super HD "hostage" and that their networks are fully capable of handling the additional traffic through the CDNs which Netflix is currently using. Netflix is, of course, trying to dump those companies which will improve their bottom line and remove them from dependence on them to respond to any problems which develop.

Google "Netflix Super HD" and "Netflix Open Connect" for more info.

You are right. I watched the test short again. It cycles from crummy up to 1920 x 1080 at 4800 kbps and stays there for the entire segment. The viewing material struck me as downright strange. Almost all of it was something moving quickly so you couldn't lock on and say yes that is really sharp. Most of it had very shallow depth of field. The color patterns looked great and so did the gray scale. There is one segment that is the moon which increases in size. At the final view a small part of the top is chopped off, and I wonder if this is too much over scan on my tv.

A guy from Century-Link came by to offer a cheaper rate on fiber optic ($26.00/mo), but the best speed he would guarantee is 20 mb. I get 53 mb over a cable connection now. He was saying there wouldn't be any ups and downs in speed, and no caps, but I don't see any of that now. I'm wondering which way to go. I don't really need 50 megs for current streaming, and the optic would be $10.00 cheaper. Any thoughts on that?
post #336 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

A guy from Century-Link came by to offer a cheaper rate on fiber optic ($26.00/mo), but the best speed he would guarantee is 20 mb. I get 53 mb over a cable connection now. He was saying there wouldn't be any ups and downs in speed, and no caps, but I don't see any of that now. I'm wondering which way to go. I don't really need 50 megs for current streaming, and the optic would be $10.00 cheaper. Any thoughts on that?

Your current provider is hooked up to Open Connect and therefore you can get the Super HD encodes. I wouldn't switch unless I knew that the other service was also.
post #337 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Therefore the vast majority of us with broadband service provided by the major cable MSOs such as Comcast, Time Warner, Cox, Verizon, Charter and AT&T do not have access to Super HD or 3D video from Netflix. Super HD consists of additional 1080p encodes at 4300- and 5800 Kbps on most HD titles (only available for about a month), so when you mentioned 5800 Kbps I knew that your ISP was connected to Open Connect. The rest of us are currently limited to 3850 Kbps 1080p and ostensibly will be until our ISPs capitulate to Netflix's demands.

Michael, when you say we are limited to 3850 Kbps 1080p is that an average speed or the highest the speed can go? I ask because my Buffalo router Tomato firmware shows spikes that exceed that speed. I watched an episode of House of Cards followed by an episode of The Killing between 20 and 22 hours last night. I have TWC. Just curious, thanks.

post #338 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

Michael, when you say we are limited to 3850 Kbps 1080p is that an average speed or the highest the speed can go? I ask because my Buffalo router Tomato firmware shows spikes that exceed that speed. I watched an episode of House of Cards followed by an episode of The Killing between 20 and 22 hours last night. I have TWC.

I meant the average speed of the video encode, which is entirely independent of the way that whatever you're playing it with reads it. Think of every title as being a set of video files, each containing the entire film, encoded at various successively higher bit rates, the higher the bit rate the better the picture quality. Unless your ISP is in Open Connect, the highest bit rate file that you're allowed to use is encoded at 3850 Kbps.

How the player reads the video over the network is another matter altogether. Using that Tomato realtime bandwidth graph (as running in my venerable old Linksys WRT54G), I once made a hobby of studying that on the set of devices that I have which feature Netflix players: Roku 2 XS, PS3, Xbox 360, Panasonic DMP-BDT220 and -BDT110, Sony BDP-S390, TiVo Premiere and this PC (never bothered with phones and tablets). I settled on using minutes 5-14 of Ong Bak 2: The Beginning, because the title was available in HD on Netflix, Amazon Prime, VUDU and Xbox Video and because it featured a long video-encoder-challenging sequence near the beginning, martial arts combat in the rain. All of the devices keep a buffer full of video, typically 2 minutes long, and play from it. Their various strategies for filling the buffer and for keeping it full differed from device to device.


Roku 2 XS and PS3 playing mins 5-14 of Ong Bak 2 at 1080p (Click to show)
Roku2XSNetflix1080pOngBak2Small.jpg


PS3Netflix1080p51OngBak2Small-1.jpg


All of them had different strategies for initially filling their buffers and getting started, typically beginning with a big peak, using all of the bandwidth that they could get at the moment (I've seen short 30 Mbps peaks--probably would be bigger for people with faster service).


Xbox and PS3 Netflix players start-up (Click to show)
Xbox360HDStartSmall.jpg


PS3Netflix1080pStartSmall.jpg


As you can see, the Xbox will read furiously for the first minute then play out of its buffer for a couple of minutes before reading again, smoothly after that.
post #339 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Your current provider is hooked up to Open Connect and therefore you can get the Super HD encodes. I wouldn't switch unless I knew that the other service was also.

That makes the decision easy. Don't fix it if it ain't broke. In the previous post I typed 4800 when I meant 5800 or whatever the highest level is.
post #340 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I meant the average speed of the video encode, which is entirely independent of the way that whatever you're playing it with reads it.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, that makes sense now. I was watching with the Apple TV3 but also own the WDTV Live and Roku XD.
post #341 of 429
It seems Comcast doesn't support Super HD yet (and I don't care about 3D)... so Super HD and 3D aside, is '1080 HD' the best I can get from Comcast at the moment?

I ask because previously there was Medium HD, High HD, and X-High HD and now there is just 720 HD and 1080 HD.


(To clarify, these are various quality designations you get on a PS3 when you press 'display' on the BD remote control.)
post #342 of 429
Shouldn't multi-post, PlazmaPZ80U--it's against forum rule. I've read that in 3 different threads, this one, the Super HD one and Netflix streaming quality.

It is worth noting in this thread that the PS3's display has been changed to "xxx SD" (where xxx is 244, 288, 384 and 480), "720p HD", "1080p HD" and "1080p Super HD". "720p HD" covers both the 2350- and 3000 Kbps encodes and "1080p Super HD" appears for both the 4300- and 5800 Kbps encodes. So, "X-High/HD" be gone forever, at least on the PS3. (My Sony BDP still uses the old designation, where both 720p encodes display "Medium/HD", 3850- and 4300 Kbps display "High/HD" and 5800 Kbps gets you "X-High/HD").
post #343 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Shouldn't multi-post, PlazmaPZ80U--it's against forum rule. I've read that in 3 different threads, this one, the Super HD one and Netflix streaming quality.

It is worth noting in this thread that the PS3's display has been changed to "xxx SD" (where xxx is 244, 288, 384 and 480), "720p HD", "1080p HD" and "1080p Super HD". "720p HD" covers both the 2350- and 3000 Kbps encodes and "1080p Super HD" appears for both the 4300- and 5800 Kbps encodes. So, "X-High/HD" be gone forever, at least on the PS3. (My Sony BDP still uses the old designation, where both 720p encodes display "Medium/HD", 3850- and 4300 Kbps display "High/HD" and 5800 Kbps gets you "X-High/HD").

Yeah, I shouldn't have and I just deleted the two duplicate posts in the other threads. I was just trying to get as many responses as possible and this issue has been bothering me for months and I just found this part of the forum today (didn't know it existed before and was just posting in the BD player section instead... AVS is quite vast).

Anyhow, based on what you said it seems like 1080 HD is the best I can do without my ISP supporting Super HD. However, why was I getting X-High/HD about six months ago and then a few months after that everything started maxing out at only High/HD? I haven't changed ISPs in years and my internet speed is currently 53 Mbps, which is plenty even for X-High/HD or 1080 Super HD?
Edited by PlasmaPZ80U - 2/14/13 at 7:52pm
post #344 of 429
I rather have the numbers myself. Like them better. Now only if they would fix the broken timer and get rid of 244, 288 (Low/SD).
post #345 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddice View Post

...get rid of 244, 288 (Low/SD).

I notice that they've eliminated the 235-, 375- and 750 Kbps encodes for "Example Short 23.976", leaving only 560-, 1050- and 1750 Kbps standard def encodes (all four low ones were called "Low/SD", with 1050 Kbps being "Medium/SD" and 1750 Kbps being "High/SD"). Perhaps they're planning to make that reduction of encodes in all titles; it would definitely speed the ramp up. If your connection to Netflix's server's can't handle mediocre 560 Kbps video then you should give up.
post #346 of 429
Thread Starter 
I tried the Example Short on my WDTV Live Streaming yesterday, and it only ran the 1050 (Medium/SD). It would not ramp up, and never went lower. The 8-hour did ramp up to High/HD.
post #347 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyross63 View Post

I tried the Example Short on my WDTV Live Streaming yesterday, and it only ran the 1050 (Medium/SD). It would not ramp up, and never went lower. The 8-hour did ramp up to High/HD.

It acts a little weird sometimes. I wonder if it's because too many people are trying to play it simultaneously from the servers you've been assigned. TiVo Premiere gets a strange version of it which apparently has the 235-, 375- and 750 Kbps encodes intact, but none of them have the bit-rate/resolution overlay so when they're playing it disappears.
post #348 of 429
This is just getting weirder and weirder. So I'm on cox cable which is not part of Netflix's "super hd" cable providers, and now my x-high streams are back. It looks like Netflix has switched things up yet again. x-high disappeared for the last few weeks. And now it's back for some reason. I still don't get the super hd streams, (even though they're labelled as such) but it seems x-high has returned from the grave.
post #349 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jottle View Post

This is just getting weirder and weirder. So I'm on cox cable which is not part of Netflix's "super hd" cable providers, and now my x-high streams are back. It looks like Netflix has switched things up yet again. x-high disappeared for the last few weeks. And now it's back for some reason. I still don't get the super hd streams, (even though they're labelled as such) but it seems x-high has returned from the grave.

Cox apparently set up to access Open Connect sometime this past week. Yesterday, I read someone state in a thread in TiVo Community forums that Cox Phoenix was in and someone else stated that Cox Orange County was in so I checked and Cox San Diego is in too. Go to http://signup.netflix.com/superhd ; if it says "Your Internet Provider is ready for Super HD!" in big green letters under the photo of a television then your ISP is set up as well.

As a sanity check, play "Example Short 23.976" a test clip with a bit-rate/resolution information overlay burned into its component video encodes. The Super HD encodes are 4300- and 5800 Kbps 1080p.

That indicator in the PS3's Netflix player has been changed to read "720p HD", "1080p HD" and "1080p Super HD" instead of "Medium/HD", "High/HD" and "X-High/HD".
post #350 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

That indicator in the PS3's Netflix player has been changed to read "720p HD", "1080p HD" and "1080p Super HD" instead of "Medium/HD", "High/HD" and "X-High/HD".

Except the timer is still broken unless I am the only one getting all zeros for the time remaining.
post #351 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Cox apparently set up to access Open Connect sometime this past week. Yesterday, I read someone state in a thread in TiVo Community forums that Cox Phoenix was in and someone else stated that Cox Orange County was in so I checked and Cox San Diego is in too. Go to http://signup.netflix.com/superhd ; if it says "Your Internet Provider is ready for Super HD!" in big green letters under the photo of a television then your ISP is set up as well.

As a sanity check, play "Example Short 23.976" a test clip with a bit-rate/resolution information overlay burned into its component video encodes. The Super HD encodes are 4300- and 5800 Kbps 1080p.

That indicator in the PS3's Netflix player has been changed to read "720p HD", "1080p HD" and "1080p Super HD" instead of "Medium/HD", "High/HD" and "X-High/HD".

Thanks for the update. Hmmm. Now that I'm eligible for super hd, I wonder why my player doesn't go to super hd. I only get up to x-high on super hd streams even though I have way more than 5mb download bandwidth (currently have 20). Perhaps my blul-ray player requires a netflix software update to take advantage of super hd? This is still strange. I should be eligible for the highest streams with my connection.
post #352 of 429
Netflix can update your BR player? Never thought about that possibility. How would they do that?

I have a new LG BR streaming player. As far as I can tell, it never updates on its own, because I can't be interacting with the player when it updates. That means that if it were updating and I didn't know it, I could turn the player off and screw up the firmware. Just as an aside, my TV told me what DVD resolution it was seeing from the source.

In other words, if the source was 480i, it would tell me 480i. This player seems to have no switch to keep it from up converting everything to 1080p before the TV sees it. So, I can no longer see the resolution from the DVD or stream.

Floyd
post #353 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

Netflix can update your BR player? Never thought about that possibility. How would they do that?

I have a new LG BR streaming player. As far as I can tell, it never updates on its own, because I can't be interacting with the player when it updates. That means that if it were updating and I didn't know it, I could turn the player off and screw up the firmware. Just as an aside, my TV told me what DVD resolution it was seeing from the source.

In other words, if the source was 480i, it would tell me 480i. This player seems to have no switch to keep it from up converting everything to 1080p before the TV sees it. So, I can no longer see the resolution from the DVD or stream.

Floyd

I was referring to getting a new netflix app on my blu-ray player. I have an oppo, and every once in awhile netflix will send out an updated netflix app via firmware update. Of course, the update is delivered by oppo and not netflix.
post #354 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jottle View Post

Thanks for the update. Hmmm. Now that I'm eligible for super hd, I wonder why my player doesn't go to super hd. I only get up to x-high on super hd streams even though I have way more than 5mb download bandwidth (currently have 20). Perhaps my blul-ray player requires a netflix software update to take advantage of super hd? This is still strange. I should be eligible for the highest streams with my connection.

The reason why X-High/HD disappeared was that Netflix replaced the old 4800 Kbps 1080p video encode with a 3850 Kbps one and the old 3600 Kbps 720p encode with a 3000 Kbps one. The new encodes were created with technology they obtained from a company called eyeIO which promises to deliver the same or better picture quality in lower bandwidth. The stream quality indicator on the devices which have them seem to be solely based on bit rate: "Medium/HD" is >= 2350 Kbps < 3600 Kbps, "High/HD" is >= 3600 Kbps < 4800 Kbps and "X-High/HD" is 4800 Kbps or more. So now the 2350- and 3000 Kbps 720p encodes will show "Medium/HD", the 3850- and 4300 Kbps 1080p encodes will show "High/HD" and the 5800 Kbps encode will show "X-High/HD". So if you see "X-High/HD" you are getting Super HD (you might be getting the lower bit rate Super HD encode if you see "High/HD").

The PS3's indicator was modified so that it doesn't show Low, Medium, High or X-High, but a horizontal resolution and "SD", "HD" or "Super HD". So 2350- and 3000 Kbps show "720 HD", 3850 Kbps shows "1080 HD" and 4300- and 5800 Kbps show "1080 Super HD". This is a big improvement IMHO; hopefully they'll change it in other players.
post #355 of 429
and just like that...my 4+ weeks of crappy streaming on my PS3 are gone. I'm back to getting high quality (now called 1080 HD) within a few minutes of starting a stream (no Super HD, since I'm using Uverse.....I hope they join Open Connect). So strange, I never had an issue with my boxee box Netflix quality the whole time, and I don't know why it is magically fixed on the PS3 now. Has anyone else who was having trouble with PS3 streaming quality found it reversed?
post #356 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by skro View Post

and just like that...my 4+ weeks of crappy streaming on my PS3 are gone. I'm back to getting high quality (now called 1080 HD) within a few minutes of starting a stream (no Super HD, since I'm using Uverse.....I hope they join Open Connect). So strange, I never had an issue with my boxee box Netflix quality the whole time, and I don't know why it is magically fixed on the PS3 now. Has anyone else who was having trouble with PS3 streaming quality found it reversed?
I switched to Level 3 Open DNS server settings on my LG Blu-ray player a couple weeks ago and have not had issues since then.
post #357 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jottle View Post

I was referring to getting a new netflix app on my blu-ray player. I have an oppo, and every once in awhile netflix will send out an updated netflix app via firmware update. Of course, the update is delivered by oppo and not netflix.

Aha. LG delivers updates about as often as Garmin!
post #358 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

The reason why X-High/HD disappeared was that Netflix replaced the old 4800 Kbps 1080p video encode with a 3850 Kbps one and the old 3600 Kbps 720p encode with a 3000 Kbps one. The new encodes were created with technology they obtained from a company called eyeIO which promises to deliver the same or better picture quality in lower bandwidth. The stream quality indicator on the devices which have them seem to be solely based on bit rate: "Medium/HD" is >= 2350 Kbps < 3600 Kbps, "High/HD" is >= 3600 Kbps < 4800 Kbps and "X-High/HD" is 4800 Kbps or more. So now the 2350- and 3000 Kbps 720p encodes will show "Medium/HD", the 3850- and 4300 Kbps 1080p encodes will show "High/HD" and the 5800 Kbps encode will show "X-High/HD". So if you see "X-High/HD" you are getting Super HD (you might be getting the lower bit rate Super HD encode if you see "High/HD").

The PS3's indicator was modified so that it doesn't show Low, Medium, High or X-High, but a horizontal resolution and "SD", "HD" or "Super HD". So 2350- and 3000 Kbps show "720 HD", 3850 Kbps shows "1080 HD" and 4300- and 5800 Kbps show "1080 Super HD". This is a big improvement IMHO; hopefully they'll change it in other players.

Thanks for clarifying! Glad all is seamless with the transition, at least on my end.
post #359 of 429
As I said before is anyone's timers still showing all zeroes on the PS3?
post #360 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddice View Post

As I said before is anyone's timers still showing all zeroes on the PS3?

Mine is, even though they changed the quality indicator in the stream info overlay.
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