AVR-4520CI vs NR5010 ... Pro's, Con's, Reliability ?

Decided to move this question to it's own thread instead of burying it in the official AVR-4520CI thread and make a few changes.

Hi Folks,

Am shopping for a new receiver. Am replacing a venerable Pioneer Elite VSX-95 that I bought around 1992 or so. I tend to buy higher quality units and use them for 20 years or more. Reliability is a top priority for me in addition to audio/video quality and feature set. Ease of use is also important since my wife is not very technical and just wants to watch TV, Blu Ray/DVD movie, or something like netflix and doesn't want to use 5 remotes and change 15 settings in the bowels of on-screen menu's in order to switch between watching a movie and watching TV via dish network.

I have a high end media room and a family room with home theater setups. Today, I'm focused on upgrading my family room system. It is presently a 5.1 surround system, but I'll change this in the future. Key features of interest are video streaming over local network and over internet, support for the latest connectivity standards (HDMI w/ARC, 3D, Deep Color, etc), ability to reassign amplifiers so I can bi-amp my front left/right (and center ?) speakers in all audio modes (surround modes, stereo direct mode, etc).

The existing speaker configuration has Emotiva ERM-6.3's for left, center, right front speakers, an SVS PB12-NSD subwoofer, and Paradigm dipole ADP-190 v.6 rear surround speakers. The Emotiva's are 4ohm speakers but are relatively easy to drive (the old Pioneer VSX-95 can make your ears bleed using the Emotiva's at 35% of full scale volume). I will be using this system in a L shaped "great room (living room, breakfast nook, kitchen)" with about 8000 cu ft of space so I need higher output capability.

I have evaluated Onkyo NR5010, AVR-1520CI, Pioneer Elite SC-68, and the Yamaha RX-A3020. I have eliminated the Yamaha from consideration (too many gee whiz useless DSP modes) and the Pioneer as well (even though all of my current receivers are Pioneer Elites, I'm not impressed with the newest model's build quality, the GUI, and the class D amps).

That leaves the NR5010 and the AVR-1520CI. They both seem to have acceptable audio and video quality.

So, I have three questions:

1. I have heard both Onkyo and Denon have had quality problems over the last few years. Is this still an issue ? If so, why ? If not, why not ? On what basis do you provide your answer (experience working in A/V store, consumer big box store, experience with a zillion forum posts, etc)?
2. Which receiver would you recommend and why ? I'm especially interested in hearing from anyone that has owned both, or has had significant face time with each of them (want unbiased views if possible, please hold back on any "fan-boy" responses )
2. Assuming I go with the AVR-1520CI, where can I get the best deal (and maintain full factory warranty) ? If the answer is "Mike @ AVS", how can I reach Mike ?

Thanks in advance,

Steven

Thanks for the response.

You are right, changing interface standards is driving rapid obsolescence right now. In fact, it's the main reason why I am upgrading. My old but venerable Pioneer Elite VSX-95 does not support the interfaces I need anymore as many A/V appliances are dropping analog and S-Video support.

In terms of support, Pioneer has been exceptional. The main board in my VSX-95 died about 5 years ago. The main board developed a crack that slowly propagated across the board due to expansion/contraction from heat. Believe it or not, Pioneer was able to supply a brand new main board 15 years after the VSX-95's manufacturing date.

Historically, the Elite's have been spectacular.

I don't expect to get the same lifespan/ruggedness out of anything I buy today unfortunately, but I don't want to unintentionally buy a unit with a high probability of issues based on prior model reliability. Life is too short to be in frequent communication with customer support departments

- Steven

Hi Gurkey,

Do you have an opinion as to which of these units might be a better fit for my needs ? If so, which one and why ?

- Steven

I am going backwards in the decision process. Have decided to add the Pioneer SC-68 back into consideration due a long history of high quality and reliability.

Am stuck at the moment on the decision process. Have to do some more thinking about what features are most important to me.

- Steven

I'll copy my response from the AVR-4520CI thread in case it spurs some more thinking by folks reading this thread.

Hi rchwallace,

Some points on each receiver (not complete by any stretch). All of these will sound just as good, so it's features/quality/reliability that matter:

SC-68
1. THX Ultra2 Plus certified (yes, it does mean something)
2. Menu's have a reputation of being byzantine/hard to use
3. 3rd generation class D amplifiers (runs cool, lot's of dynamic range, this is a plus)
4. 2K and 4K pass through
5. Pioneer has a reputation for quality/durability/reliability
6. Capable of driving 4 ohm speakers easily
7. Pioneer in-house custom auto-equalization system w/o subwoofer compensation
- Some folks consider Pioneers custom system a plus, others think it is a minus
8. Very gimmicky android/iphone app
9. Airplay support
10. Probably the best overall video processing

NR5010
1. THX Ultra2 Plus certified
2. Easy to use menu system
3. Audessey 32 bit auto-equalization w/subwoofer compensation
4. "Home Media" = ability to mount any windows hard drive and access it directly
- bypasses DLNA, so you can load mp3's, DSD, FLAC, etc directly without the meta data tags needed by DLNA
- It essentially is a linux samba server running on the NR5010
- This is a major plus in my book, much simpler to set up home media server this way
5. Push-Pull Darlington amps are proven design, but are less efficient.
- For each output watt into the speakers, it pulls more current from the 110V supply.
- They also are capable of sourcing/sinking current quickly (= wide dynamic range)
6. Rated for 4 ohm speakers
7. Spotty quality/reliability record (historically the last 3 - 4 years)
8. No option to pass through 4K signals
9. 2 year warranty
10. No main zone 12 triggers (zone's 2 and 3 only)
11. Amps are not fully re-assignable, only some fixed configuration options are available
12. No Airplay support
13. Second best video processing

AVR-4520CI
1. Not THX certified (the absence of certification isn't meaningful, but the presence of certification is)
2. Better reputation for reliability/quality than Onkyo, but not as good as Pioneer
3. 4K pass through support
4. Three year warranty
5. Completely remappable amp assignments
6. More energy efficient amplifier circuits than Onkyo, but no where near as efficient as the Pioneer amps
7. Reputation for cutting out when driving difficult low impedance loads
8. Probably the best user community (lots of high tech fans)
9. Airplay support
10. Video processing is of high quality, but not as good as the Pioneer and Onkyo

Some of this is my opinion. Don't bother bringing out the flamethrowers, I'm wearing asbestos underwear

You are right, the NR5010 supports upscaling to 4K from most video input sources. In fact, all three of the units will do this.

However, if you have a 4K video source, the AVR-4520CI and SC-68 will be able to pass that signal through to a 4K monitor, but the NR5010 can not pass it. The NR5010 can only receive and use inputs with 1080p or lower resolution. It is not future proof with respect to 4K source material.

You are right with respect to THX certification. While the presence of certification says something about the receiver capabilities, the absence of certification says nothing about the receiver. All we know is that the manufacturer did not want to pay for the certification and for the royalties for each unit. It is possible that the receiver would have met the standard if it had been tested. We simply don't know.

It is up to you to decide if the absence of certification is an issue. I look at it the other way around. Having the THS Ultra2 certification tells me that the receiver can achieve reference sound pressure levels (0db) in a 3000 cu ft room. Since I have an 8000+ cu ft room to fill with sound, the Ultra2 certification indicates that a receiver has a prayer of filling my room with sound at more reasonable volumes (-5 to -15db).

- Steven

The NAD 787 is a nice unit, but please note is has almost zero video processing. All video is passed through except for 480i which is upconverted to 480p. That's not all that big of a deal since most TV's have perfectly good video processing.

However, the spec doesn't say if the signal path will support the bandwidth needed to handle 2K (basically progressive scan 3D = 2X 1080p = 2K) or native 4K sources. Just supporting pass through doesn't imply that the unit is 4K pass through capable.

Otherwise, it is a fantastic unit with very high output drive capability.

It's also very expensive = $4000 MSRP (discounts are not deep on these puppies).

- Steven

That's a fair point. Most video sources can be processed by either the display unit or the unit generating the video (blu ray player). The processing in the receiver really isn't needed unless you have a lot of legacy A/V appliances using legacy interfaces (component, composite, S-video, etc) that need to be upscaled. In that case, the receiver processing is necessary to convert everything to hdmi and upscale it.

- Steven

Thanks Joe Rod. I'll show my ignorance here. What are the connectivity/signalling requirement for 4K ? Does it require dual HDMI to handle the total bandwidth (data rate), or just one HDMI connection ?

As for rchwallace, I'm not sure I understand your question. Which receiver are you asking the question about ?

- Steven