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Preamp for Pro Audio amp for home - Page 3

post #61 of 99
12/7/12 at 7:22am
Thread Starter 
Wow that's great news. I always thought one needed approx 26 x 16' room with approx 8' equilateral triangle setup (listener and 2 speakers) to get good sound and soundstaging.
But if one needs to go for atleast 12" sub for good bass, wouldn't it be too bassy in smaller rooms ?
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post #62 of 99
12/7/12 at 7:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

Wow that's great news. I always thought one needed approx 26 x 16' room with approx 8' equilateral triangle setup (listener and 2 speakers) to get good sound and soundstaging.
But if one needs to go for atleast 12" sub for good bass, wouldn't it be too bassy in smaller rooms ?

I know that an 8" subwoofer can provide adequate bass in an automobile, but that is actually a very tiny room. I've used a long-throw 12" subwoofer with a 2 KW power amp in a 12x12 bedroom and it was not overpowering. Of course it was properly adjusted, but at least 1/3 of that power amp was not decoration, if you catch my drift.
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post #63 of 99
12/7/12 at 8:33am
Thread Starter 
And the monitors were 8" ? And what was distance between them and the listening position ?

And if one were going for passive monitors, wouldn't then even a 40w integrated amp suffice ?
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post #64 of 99
12/7/12 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

And the monitors were 8" ? And what was distance between them and the listening position ?

6 1/2" woofers in those monitors. It was a NHT Pro A10 system.

It was about 4 feet from the monitors to my ears.
Quote:
And if one were going for passive monitors, wouldn't then even a 40w integrated amp suffice?

Its all about speaker efficiency, expected SPL and in the far field, the room's absorbtivity.

The A10 system included a stout 150 wpc stereo amp/eq.
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post #65 of 99
12/7/12 at 9:24am
Thread Starter 
Thanks a lot Arny for patiently answering all my questions ( which were quite a few ). Lot of new learning for me.
Also will request you to give a thought to my post #35 smile.gif

Thanks others as well
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post #66 of 99
12/7/12 at 10:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

Hi Arny,

With such a wealth of info you provide on the forum, I would like to request you to post an article somewhere which helps a newbie build an optimal 2 channel audio (or multichannel ) system. It can cover things like what should be looked for in a component, whats good to have in a component thought not be audible ( eg balanced inputs ?) and what doesn't matter ( dual mono, monoblocks, high capacitance, big power transformer ? i m guessing here) . A few brands can be mentioned in each category (Spk, Amp, CD/DAC) which are known to produce honest, well designed products so the buyer can just choose out of those based on local availability, warranty etc.

Such an article will be really helpful in preventing a newbie from buying abnormally high priced products.

Or a book maybe ? smile.gif

.

I don't know the status of Ethan's book, but it should be even better written than what I might write, but along the same lines as I would write and covering areas that you are interested in.

Well, actually I do now know the books status - purchasable.

http://www.ethanwiner.com/book.htm

http://www.harmonycentral.com/docs/DOC-2792

And no, I haven't read it. :-(
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post #67 of 99
12/7/12 at 11:11pm
Thread Starter 
Just when I thought this thread is done with......

I found this :

http://www.jblpro.com/MSC1/MSC1_Overview.html

Will this serve as good pre , going in between my CD player/HTPC and main in of my NAD C372 ?
(I will miss the remote)

Will get room correction as well future ability to add a sub to my 2 channel system
Though wouldn't it have been better with a digital in ?

Is this a good buy ? Any similar and better alternatives ?
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post #68 of 99
12/8/12 at 12:15am
I'd put the money into room treatment materials and get a decent AVR for its room correction software. Especially if you have lots of hard surfaces to contend with. Room correction software can only do so much and beyond that needs help in the form of softening up the reflecting surfaces.
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post #69 of 99
12/8/12 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

Just when I thought this thread is done with......

I found this :

http://www.jblpro.com/MSC1/MSC1_Overview.html

Will this serve as good pre , going in between my CD player/HTPC and main in of my NAD C372 ?
(I will miss the remote)

Will get room correction as well future ability to add a sub to my 2 channel system
Though wouldn't it have been better with a digital in ?

Is this a good buy ? Any similar and better alternatives ?

We'll only know if it is a good buy after someone spends their money and tries it out. ;-)

It looks good on paper.

If I was attaching its outputs to a NAD C372, I'd pick the "power amp in" inputs. It puts out professional levels and would be happiest with a power amp that requires 1-3 volts RMS for full output. The regular inputs on an integrated amp run about a tenth of that and the possible bad consequences are hissy background noise.
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post #70 of 99
12/8/12 at 7:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

We'll only know if it is a good buy after someone spends their money and tries it out. ;-)

smile.gif True
Quote:
It looks good on paper.
If I was attaching its outputs to a NAD C372, I'd pick the "power amp in" inputs. It puts out professional levels and would be happiest with a power amp that requires 1-3 volts RMS for full output. The regular inputs on an integrated amp run about a tenth of that and the possible bad consequences are hissy background noise.

The main in of my amp is for that purpose. The pre out and main in are connected by external metallic connectors and can be removed to add external preamp.

There is one more KRK ergo which is costlier.

There a quite a few complains on online forums of its room correction not working properly.
Also it would be I guess converting the analog sound to digital and back. They could have given a digital in.

So in wishlist for now....
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post #71 of 99
12/8/12 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

We'll only know if it is a good buy after someone spends their money and tries it out. ;-)

smile.gif True
Quote:
It looks good on paper.
If I was attaching its outputs to a NAD C372, I'd pick the "power amp in" inputs. It puts out professional levels and would be happiest with a power amp that requires 1-3 volts RMS for full output. The regular inputs on an integrated amp run about a tenth of that and the possible bad consequences are hissy background noise.

The main in of my amp is for that purpose. The pre out and main in are connected by external metallic connectors and can be removed to add external preamp.

That's what I thought.
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There is one more KRK ergo which is costlier.

Doesn't seem to be justified.
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There a quite a few complains on online forums of its room correction not working properly.

Not comforting.
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Also it would be I guess converting the analog sound to digital and back.

Nothing to fear in this day and age.

If they tried to do room correction entirely in the analog domain, now that would be scary!
Quote:
They could have given a digital in.

The KRK Ergo is also an audio interface. It's digital input would be the Firewire port. It also has a SP/DIF input. You'll have to download its user manual and figure out how its signal routing works.
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post #72 of 99
12/8/12 at 9:02pm
Thread Starter 
I was talking about the JBL providing a digital in. KRK is ruled out for its price.
And though converting to digital an back wouldn't be a problem in these days, its still an unnecessary step as most will be having digital out on their cd/dvd/pc etc.
Anyways that would have been an additional input.

I will keep watching for more feedback on JBL on other forums and then take a call.
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post #73 of 99
12/9/12 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
Assuming I will always be using one source, is this good enough to be used in between source and power amp / active speakers ?

http://www.tcelectronic.com/levelpilot.asp
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post #74 of 99
12/10/12 at 5:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

Assuming I will always be using one source, is this good enough to be used in between source and power amp / active speakers ?

http://www.tcelectronic.com/levelpilot.asp

Yes. The price is not unreasonable. I have friends using one of these and the SQ is just fine.
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post #75 of 99
12/10/12 at 6:37am
Thread Starter 
Now truly a last question Arny smile.gif

You earlier mentioned even smaller rooms can be used as good music rooms.
So I can place my current floorstanders ( Dynaudio Contours 1.8 mkii ) in a say 16' x 12' room ?
We can assume the room can be completely treated ( unlike the living room which has to look like living room smile.gif )

And then even add a sub ?

Thanks...
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post #76 of 99
12/10/12 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

Now truly a last question Arny smile.gif

You earlier mentioned even smaller rooms can be used as good music rooms.
So I can place my current floorstanders ( Dynaudio Contours 1.8 mkii ) in a say 16' x 12' room ?
We can assume the room can be completely treated ( unlike the living room which has to look like living room smile.gif )

And then even add a sub ?

Absolutely!

http://www.dynaudio.com/int/pdf/DYN_Automotive_Brochure_INT.pdf

If they contain the 2x Esotar 6.7 inch drivers with 21 mm Xmax then they are pretty impressive

Here's the max undistorted spl numbers for each Dyunaudio Contour 1.8 mkII:

F,Hz Max SPL, DB

10 82
20 94
30 101
40 106
50 110
60 113
70 116
80 118
90 120
100 122
130 126

To put that into context, here's what a single SOTA 18" driver can do:

F,Hz Max SPL, DB

10 98
20 110
30 118
40 123
50 126
60 130
70 132
80 135
90 137
100 138
130 143
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post #77 of 99
12/11/12 at 5:56am
Thread Starter 
Thats great! I always thought they would need a largish room so have kept the speakers in my 26' x 14' living room. Now can think of keeping them in one of the smaller rooms.
Since its mostly me who is listening.

Thanks.
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post #78 of 99
12/11/12 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

Thats great! I always thought they would need a largish room so have kept the speakers in my 26' x 14' living room. Now can think of keeping them in one of the smaller rooms.
Since its mostly me who is listening.

Here's the more detailed story.

Every room has a frequency below which response starts to rise. The smaller the room, the higher the frequency. If the size of the room and the roll off frequency of the speakers are not coordinated (the usual case) , you end up with either a hole or a bump in the bass. If you have the means to adjust the response of your system, you can compensate for this. Thus all generalities about speaker bass extension and room size are likely to fail in actual practice.
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post #79 of 99
12/11/12 at 7:19am
Thread Starter 
So then there will be an ideal room size which will have frequency (above which response will start to rise) around 30-60 Hz , where most good speakers will roll off ?
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post #80 of 99
12/11/12 at 8:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

So then there will be an ideal room size which will have frequency (above which response will start to rise) around 30-60 Hz , where most good speakers will roll off ?

Every room has frequency below which the frequency response will rise. The larger the room, the lower this frequency.

If you get lucky, you will have speakers whose natural bass roll-off exactly complements this rise in response. Few are that lucky.
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post #81 of 99
12/11/12 at 9:56am
Thread Starter 
And is that straight wavelength related or some complex relation of that frequency to the room size ?
And what will be term for that frequency below which response rises ?

This suggests a largish room size and kind of puts more blame on loudspeaker .
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm
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post #82 of 99
12/29/12 at 1:00am
Thread Starter 
[reusing this thread and not asking newer question in new thread]

If I were to buy something like http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DEQ2496.aspx to be used with REW5 (and a mic like Dayton Audio EMM-6/Behringer ECM8000).
My current components are HTPC with optical out and NAD 372 integrated and Behringer UCA202.

1) Where should DEQ2496 be ideally placed ? Before the NAD 372 or between the pre and power sections . Also I couldn't get to know from the manual whether it has vol control ability.

2) Is DEQ2496 an overkill . Any lesser priced/better alternatives ? I thought it will serve as outboard DAC+EQ (in conjunction with REW5). So I don't need to buy a good soundcard, Can continue with intel DH77DF motherboard onboard realtek 898 .

3) How good is the auto-EQ function within DEQ2496 as compared to REW5 ?

Or can something be done within the HTPC itself (measure and apply REW results) using some soundcard so that no need to add DEQ2496 in the chain ?
As I already have the integrated, I don't want to buy a new AVR with Audyssey XT32 etc

Thanks!
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post #83 of 99
12/30/12 at 4:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

[reusing this thread and not asking newer question in new thread]

If I were to buy something like http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DEQ2496.aspx to be used with REW5 (and a mic like Dayton Audio EMM-6/Behringer ECM8000).
My current components are HTPC with optical out and NAD 372 integrated and Behringer UCA202.

1) Where should DEQ2496 be ideally placed ? Before the NAD 372 or between the pre and power sections .

Between the preamp outs and power amp ins as shown below:



This picture above shows a set of jumpers between the points where you need to connect the equalizer.
Quote:
Also I couldn't get to know from the manual whether it has vol control ability.

Util menu 1 has a gain setting titled "gain offset". It has a +/- 15 db range.

Quote:
2) Is DEQ2496 an overkill . Any lesser priced/better alternatives ? I thought it will serve as outboard DAC+EQ (in conjunction with REW5). So I don't need to buy a good soundcard, Can continue with intel DH77DF motherboard onboard Realtek 898 .

The DEQ2496's digital input allow it to be used as a DAC. Implementations of system board audio interface chips vary in terms of whether or not a digital output jack is provided, so you need to examine your computer and its manufacturer documentation. The DEA has connectors for both coax and optical digital inputs.
Quote:
3) How good is the auto-EQ function within DEQ2496 as compared to REW5 ?

I would expect that REW may have an advantage.
Quote:
Or can something be done within the HTPC itself (measure and apply REW results) using some soundcard so that no need to add DEQ2496 in the chain ?
As I already have the integrated, I don't want to buy a new AVR with Audyssey XT32 etc

Most computer audio interfaces have some kind of limited graphic equalizer function. Not in the same league!
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post #84 of 99
12/31/12 at 7:32am
Thread Starter 
So if I were using digital in of deq2496 to connect htpc, I will be connecting DEQ output to main in of nad 372. In that case, I will need to use vol control within deq. How useful would be the builtin in +/- 15 db range. And i hope rew is as effective as xt32

Other options are DCX2496 and FBQ2496. But i think DEQ2496 should be the best option
Edited by Hifisound - 12/31/12 at 8:10am
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post #85 of 99
12/31/12 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

So if I were using digital in of deq2496 to connect htpc, I will be connecting DEQ output to main in of nad 372. In that case, I will need to use vol control within deq. How useful would be the builtin in +/- 15 db range. And i hope rew is as effective as xt32

Other options are DCX2496 and FBQ2496. But i think DEQ2496 should be the best option

I don't consider the +/- 15 dB level adjustment on the DEQ 2496 to be an effective replacement for a system volume control. Just too inconvenient to change its settings.
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post #86 of 99
12/31/12 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

So if I were using digital in of deq2496 to connect htpc, I will be connecting DEQ output to main in of nad 372. In that case, I will need to use vol control within deq. How useful would be the builtin in +/- 15 db range. And i hope rew is as effective as xt32

Other options are DCX2496 and FBQ2496. But i think DEQ2496 should be the best option

I don't consider the +/- 15 dB level adjustment on the DEQ 2496 to be an effective replacement for a system volume control. Just too inconvenient to change its settings.

Volume can be adjusted in computer itself. Digital volume control results in some loss of resolution, but in 24 bit mode it won't be significant.

And regarding question #3 - you can use REW to measure and generate filter definitions, then transfer them into DEQ. I wouldn't recommend use of automatic equalizer in Behringer.
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post #87 of 99
1/1/13 at 1:12am
Thread Starter 
Yes, then i better use the window vol control.
But then how about connecting the DEQ to aux in of 372, like a CD player ? So can use 372 vol control.
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post #88 of 99
1/1/13 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post

Yes, then i better use the window vol control.
But then how about connecting the DEQ to aux in of 372, like a CD player ? So can use 372 vol control.

Aren't you using other analog sources?
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post #89 of 99
1/1/13 at 8:33am
Thread Starter 
Currently just have a nad c542 cd player into the nad 372, which i might retire after adding the htpc(being built) no plans for TT yet
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post #90 of 99
1/2/13 at 5:59pm
Thread Starter 
So in case I have no analog sources, can I connect it to aux in of 372 ?
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