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Grayscale variances - different patterns, plasma calibration - Page 9

post #241 of 273
3/6/13 at 6:45am
I just calibrate greyscale and gamma no gamut. If You see my results from the posted link there was nearly no benefit in calibrating gamut too.

regarding gamma, You mean the precalibrated gamma of the THX cinema mode? On my TV gamma on the higher IRE was min. 2.0. What's your's as You write a LOT?

"Is it possible that Panasonic sort of compensates for the ABL by cranking the luminance up at higher IRE's?"

that's what I thought too, but I'm not that pro to give the right answer.

and with the default settings gamma is flat.

Edited by DrFaxe - 3/6/13 at 6:54am
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post #242 of 273
3/6/13 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

So what do you do, just greyscale and gamut, and leave gamma alone?

What I am wondering about, the standard gamma becomes a LOT brighter at higher IRE. Is it possible that Panasonic sort of compensates for the ABL by cranking the luminance up at higher IRE's?

Sorry total noob here... Is this why my gamma graph after my first calibration of my Panasonic UT50 looks like this?

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post #243 of 273
3/6/13 at 7:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

I just calibrate greyscale and gamma no gamut. If You see my results from the posted link there was nearly no benefit in calibrating gamut too.

regarding gamma, You mean the precalibrated gamma of the THX cinema mode? On my TV gamma on the higher IRE was min. 2.0. What's your's as You write a LOT?

"Is it possible that Panasonic sort of compensates for the ABL by cranking the luminance up at higher IRE's?"

that's what I thought too, but I'm not that pro to give the right answer.

and with the default settings gamma is flat.

In ISF modes, do you not calibrate the gamma, you just leave alone presumably.
The issue with this is that the VT30 (presume VT50 aswell) only has gamma settings withint the OSD at 2.2, 2.4 so if i wanted 2.3 i have to manually adjust th gamma sliders. 2.2 doesnt give enough pop, 2.28 certainly does.
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post #244 of 273
3/6/13 at 7:43am
think there is a misunderstanding, I said I only calibrate greyscale and gamma, no gamut.
And I don't use the ISF mode of the TV as I have a Radiance. I use THX cinema mode now, cause of the better MLL and light output.

But before Radiance, I used the ISF mode of the TV and calibrated greyscale, gamma and gamut.
And yes You're right, if You want to have 2.3 gamma in ISF mode You have to adjust gamma sliders, cause of the gamma presets.
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post #245 of 273
3/6/13 at 8:29am
Light Illusion
Your "ramp method" - you write about
"Use that patch size for the profiling (moving the probe to the correct distance for the patch size)"


and you can then (when already found the right size pattern) calibrated by contact or non-contact only ?
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post #246 of 273
3/6/13 at 9:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

think there is a misunderstanding, I said I only calibrate greyscale and gamma, no gamut.
And I don't use the ISF mode of the TV as I have a Radiance. I use THX cinema mode now, cause of the better MLL and light output.

But before Radiance, I used the ISF mode of the TV and calibrated greyscale, gamma and gamut.
And yes You're right, if You want to have 2.3 gamma in ISF mode You have to adjust gamma sliders, cause of the gamma presets.

Indeed.

Just did a 1% window cal with a target gamma of 2.28.






Image looks very clean, nice pop - gonna work on the colours a bit later tho to see if I can reduce the dE further,
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post #247 of 273
3/6/13 at 11:04am
Your results look to be very good, especially color tracking. Do You have reading of this 1% calibrated display with larger window pattern?
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post #248 of 273
3/6/13 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Indeed.

Just did a 1% window cal with a target gamma of 2.28.



Image looks very clean, nice pop - gonna work on the colours a bit later tho to see if I can reduce the dE further,

Why? You can not see those errors what is the point?
Some interesting reading on the subject of color error and charts and perfection http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/03/color-management-system-pie-eat-half-or-all/
Edited by airscapes - 3/6/13 at 11:12am
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post #249 of 273
3/6/13 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Your results look to be very good, especially color tracking. Do You have reading of this 1% calibrated display with larger window pattern?

I have but found it difficult to achieve consistent results due to the Abl, especially where the gamma is concerned. Ill have another go on Friday.
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post #250 of 273
3/6/13 at 12:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Why? You can not see those errors what is the point?
Some interesting reading on the subject of color error and charts and perfection http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/03/color-management-system-pie-eat-half-or-all/

Education, try new techniques,etc etc.
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post #251 of 273
3/6/13 at 1:16pm
Great article, great explanations of complex terms with graphic examples using real-life dispays similar to what we might encounter and/or enjoy.... Michael seems to always provide great insight and explanation. I enjoy being reigned back into reality from time to time, with the added bonus of gaining a clearer depth of understanding.

Thanks for posting the link and thanks Michael.
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post #252 of 273
3/6/13 at 1:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaudoin View Post

Great article, great explanations of complex terms with graphic examples using real-life dispays similar to what we might encounter and/or enjoy.... Michael seems to always provide great insight and explanation. I enjoy being reigned back into reality from time to time, with the added bonus of gaining a clearer depth of understanding.

Thanks for posting the link and thanks Michael.

+1
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post #253 of 273
3/6/13 at 2:15pm
Me too.
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post #254 of 273
3/7/13 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

I have but found it difficult to achieve consistent results due to the Abl, especially where the gamma is concerned. Ill have another go on Friday.

could You please post some readings from this display with pattern around 10% or more. I'm curious about the gamma chart.
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post #255 of 273
3/7/13 at 9:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

could You please post some readings from this display with pattern around 10% or more. I'm curious about the gamma chart.

I will tomorrow. When you say readings do you mean;

1. Default TV pro settings, then running 10% windows with no adjustments.

2. A full 10% window calibration

3. Run the 10% windows through my existing 1% calibration settings to illustrate the comparison between window sizes.

I suppose i could do all 3!

Ill post tomorrow.
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post #256 of 273
3/7/13 at 11:13am
No. 3

thanks in advance!!
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post #257 of 273
3/7/13 at 11:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

No. 3

thanks in advance!!

Easy enough to do! Will post tomorrow!
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post #258 of 273
3/8/13 at 2:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Easy enough to do! Will post tomorrow!





10% windows - Mmmmmm.
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post #259 of 273
3/8/13 at 4:15am
Well now I guess the next comparison is to calibrate with 10% and then retake the measurements with a 1% to see the change given a different starting point. Lol, I think it may be fascinating as well.
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post #260 of 273
3/8/13 at 5:38am
Hi ndaa75,

thanks for the results. I would expected bigger differences. Actually gamma between 20 and 70% is Ok. Assuming 10% windows are reflecting real live content well and the gamma hump at 10% is not a faulty measurement You will loose a lot of details in dark scenes. Have You noticed that on Your display?
The 1st chapter of Hellboy is quite suitable to check whether having no black crush and good details in dark scenes.

The measurements also show a max Y of 67 cd/m². Do You feel comfortable with that? VT30 should be able to target a Y of 80 cd/m² in ISF mode. Or do You have the 55" model?
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post #261 of 273
3/8/13 at 6:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Hi ndaa75,

thanks for the results. I would expected bigger differences. Actually gamma between 20 and 70% is Ok. Assuming 10% windows are reflecting real live content well and the gamma hump at 10% is not a faulty measurement You will loose a lot of details in dark scenes. Have You noticed that on Your display?
The 1st chapter of Hellboy is quite suitable to check whether having no black crush and good details in dark scenes.

The measurements also show a max Y of 67 cd/m². Do You feel comfortable with that? VT30 should be able to target a Y of 80 cd/m² in ISF mode. Or do You have the 55" model?

Ok, a lot of points here.
Firstly the 10% hump is not a reading error and to be honest flicking between pro 1 (1% windows) and pro 2 (10% windows, a cal i did this morning) i really cannot see that much of a difference in terms of black level. There is no crush.

In respct of the Y value, this changes depending on the window size being used, but actually i set it so that all the bars on the contrast avshd pattern are flashing, a setting of around 51 of 60. And yes i have the a 55 VT30. Pro ok to watch at night, ive calibrated THX for daytime viewing.

its been mentioned here many times but i think the setting of gamma on these plasmas is a pure waste of time - it will never be accurate. So even in the two examples i posted, the results dont really mean anything relevant in terms of the overall goal. You have no way to confirm. I suppose its best just to leave at default, either 2.2 or 2.4.
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post #262 of 273
3/8/13 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Firstly the 10% hump is not a reading error and to be honest flicking between pro 1 (1% windows) and pro 2 (10% windows, a cal i did this morning) i really cannot see that much of a difference in terms of black level. There is no crush.

I only assumed low details near black based on the gamma chart, so I was asking how real live content is to make sure. If You have no crush, fine
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

In respct of the Y value, this changes depending on the window size being used, but actually i set it so that all the bars on the contrast avshd pattern are flashing, a setting of around 51 of 60. And yes i have the a 55 VT30. Pro ok to watch at night, ive calibrated THX for daytime viewing.

I was asking about screen size as I did own this model in the past which suffers on low light output in ISF mode (max 72 cd/m²). Also got the chance to calibrate the 50" and 65" model and the 55" was the model with lowest Y reading in ISF mode, based on the fact that 50" and 55" are sharing the same PSU which is insufficient for the 55".
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

its been mentioned here many times but i think the setting of gamma on these plasmas is a pure waste of time - it will never be accurate. So even in the two examples i posted, the results dont really mean anything relevant in terms of the overall goal. You have no way to confirm. I suppose its best just to leave at default, either 2.2 or 2.4.

You pointed out the key! And that I was trying to say with "I don't care much about gamma". If I calibrate with a desired window size and get a flat gamma, I don't care about how readings on this calibrated display look with other window sizes. As You said senseless! But I choosed the 11% size as I believe that would be a good size to reflect avarage real live content.
I do more like the idea to have, lets say 3, calibrations with different window sizes for different film moods. E.g. 6% for dark movies, 11% for avarage and 16% for bright movies or something similar. But before that, Lumagen has to come up with some more patterns in their generator, hopefully soon.
Edited by DrFaxe - 3/8/13 at 7:37am
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post #263 of 273
3/8/13 at 7:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

I only assumed low details near black based on the gamma chart, so I was asking how real live content is to make sure. If You have no crush, fine
I was asking about screen size as I did own this model in the past which suffers on low light output in ISF mode (max 72 cd/m²). Also got the chance to calibrate the 50" and 65" model and the 55" was the model with lowest Y reading in ISF mode, based on the fact that 50" and 55" are sharing the same PSU which is insufficient for the 55".
You pointed out the key! And that I was trying to say with "I don't care much about gamma". If I calibrate with a desired window size and get a flat gamma, I don't care about how readings on this calibrated display look with other window sizes. As You said senseless! But I choosed the 11% size as I believe that would be a good size to reflect avarage real live content.
I do more like the idea to have, lets say 3, calibrations with different window sizes for different film moods. E.g. 6% for dark movies, 11% for avarage and 16% for bright movies or something similar. But before that, Lumagen has to come up with some more patterns in their generator, hopefully soon.

On the gamma issue - it creates a problem if you want to target anything other than the sets presets so im basically stuck at 2.2. or 2.4 (according to the OSD).
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post #264 of 273
3/8/13 at 8:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

On the gamma issue - it creates a problem if you want to target anything other than the sets presets so im basically stuck at 2.2. or 2.4 (according to the OSD).

Unless of course i use 1% windows and calibrate the panels native response, which might i add seems to work.
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post #265 of 273
3/17/13 at 3:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Firstly the 10% hump is not a reading error..........

Actually the 10% reading is an error. The data shows the same 'Y' value for both 0 and 10, so will have to rerun.
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post #266 of 273
3/17/13 at 8:32am
Which form the correct pattern for the plasma - circle or square or rectangle (16:9) ?
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post #267 of 273
3/17/13 at 8:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Which form the correct pattern for the plasma - circle or square or rectangle (16:9) ?

I use a square, but others use circles an rectangles.
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post #268 of 273
3/17/13 at 8:53am
as correctly ?
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post #269 of 273
3/17/13 at 11:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

as correctly ?

??
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post #270 of 273
3/17/13 at 11:18am
What better?
1) circle
or
2) square
or
3) rectangle (16:9)
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