Dark Knight Rises Blu Ray CIH discussion - Page 2

" Having both a 2.35:1 and a 16:9 screen means never having to say you're sorry " TM

I'm really liking my HD5000R paired with my new Radiance XE (got great deals on both )

Sweeet. I just picked up a Mini 3d a few months ago which has been great as well!

I'm using remote controlled 4 way masking + both the zooming and A-lens method, depending on my preferences.

For movies like The Dark Knight that switch from scope to IMAX I've simply used the zoom method, masked the scope scenes and opened up the masks for any IMAX scenes. But I haven't watched one of these since I got a Panamorph UH480 A-lens a while back. Something doesn't sound right about how the IMAX scenes would look on an A-lens set up. Wouldn't the full 16:9 IMAX images look distorted with the anamorphic processing/lens stretching engaged? Or...what am I missing here?

You still need to vertically scale the image back into proportion, cropping off the top and bottom of the frame. There's no way to keep the entire image on the screen for both 2.35:1 scenes and IMAX scenes without viewing in standard 16:9 letterbox mode.

Josh, thanks but I'm still a bit unclear.

When using an A-lens you engage anamorphic processing which makes the image fill the entire projector panel, but produces a distorted image. The A-lens stretches the image into proper geometry into your 2:35:1 screen. Then a 16:9 IMAX image comes on and the image looks like...what on your screen? Isn't it now distorted by the A-lens? When you say you need to vertically scale the image back into proportion, do you mean re-scale each time it switches to IMAX...so you get a smaller pillar-boxed 16:9 image but with correct geometry? (And how would that happen? Do you need a scaler which automatically detects the ratio changes and re-scales?).
I don't see how both the scope and the IMAX images can fill the 2:35:1 screen without distortion if there is no image over-spill happening beyond the top/bottom screen frame for the IMAX.

So I still don't grok at this point what you guys are doing.

Nothing changes when the IMAX scenes come on, the top and bottom 12.5% of the image are cropped off (just like the bars are cropped off) and the center 75% is scaled to file the panel. There's no change, no indication whatsoever if scenes are IMAX or not. As far as the lens/scaling goes, they are no different than the rest of the movie, only difference is instead of black bars being cropped, there's image data that gets cropped.

Remember Blu-ray is a 16:9 medium, 1920x1080 pixels. Scope movies, 16:9 movies, 1.85:1 movies, scope scenes, IMAX scenes, are all stored on the disc as 1920x1080. The only difference is scope content is padded with black pixels on the top/bottom where as IMAX content is not. Either way, the video processor just crops off about 100 lines from the top and bottom. It doesn't care if they're black (scope) or image (IMAX).

Ah, now I get it, thanks stanger89. The processing treats both 16:9 and 2:35:1 content as "scope" as it were. I just never really noticed what was happening with 16:9 images with my A-lens/anamorphic processing engaged, since I only ever engaged it for scope images.

Yes, that's it exactly. You make the whole movie scope, sacrificing a bit of picture during the IMAX scenes.



Since movies like this are composed to be "safe" for 2.35:1 in all non-IMAX theaters, the parts you crop off shouldn't contain anything vital. I saw Dark Knight Rises in a non-IMAX scope theater and couldn't tell that anything was missing.

Remember, even the Blu-ray is already cropping image from the original 1.44:1 IMAX negative to fit the 16:9 HDTV frame.

Got it.

I viewed The Dark Knight using the zoomed masked/unmask-during-movie method. Maybe I'll try anamorphic-only for Dark Knight Rises to see what it's like. I'm sure I'll appreciate the convenience, not having to press my masking button. At the same time, wow does that screen expanding open for the IMAX shots ever feel impressive using the masking method.

Or you use the 4 x 3 mode (with scaling + A-lens) and the 16:9 IMAX stuff which should be bigger suddenly becomes smaller. At least you get to the full frame if that small amount top and bottom is that important to you.

Ya, this movie and The Dark Knight are two I watch on my much taller 16:9 screen, just for the IMAX scenes.

Hmmm...I wonder...

Don't some of the higher end scalers like Lumagen offer aspect ratio change detection? If that's the case, I'd be curious if they could send some activation signal to my masking system.

So I've got to ask, how do you do that, logistically? Mask/unmask for scope? Do you have some sort of automation going, or do you just have the scenes memorized? I was thinking the scenes weren't scope for long so if it were me just watching, I'd probably not get it switched before it was time to switch back

Even though the whole screen wall is black velvet, I can still see if any bright areas appear projected on the velvet (even though they are very dim). So I can usually spot when it's switched to IMAX and just open the masks. And if I've seen the film before, e.g. Dark Knight, I know when those scenes are coming as well. It would be great to have that process somehow automated. But even so, the few AR changing films don't make it worth worrying about much, I find.

Black bar detection is something that Lumagen claimed to be working on a couple years ago, but never instituted.

Pity.

Intuitively it doesn't seem like a hard an issue to implement (Does it?).. Black bars would seem hard to miss as part of video content. Plus, there would seem to be the market for it.

At what levels of black are the black bars encoded at? Is it RGB = PC0 or RGB = PC16? Is there a standard or vary from studio to studio?

It shouldn't really matter (PC or Video black) since you calibrate the input so that "black" input == "black" output. The complication I see is that the detection would need to determine two things, first if there are bars, and second, how big they are. This can be tricky in some situations, like when the video is black or close to black (starfields). Take for example Star Wars Ep IV, it opens on a starfield, it would be pretty hard to figure out if that's scope or not from the first second or two. And then there's the question of when/how often do you change.

None of these are terribly difficult or insurmountable, but they do make it a bit more complicated than just, "are ther bars? Yes/No"

I wonder if Kaleidescape has the metadata for that. I though I'd heard they have letterbox bar locations and aspect ratio information to drive and perfectly position automated masking.

So are you thinking on screen source based like how the Panny suto changes? I was thinking from source perspective so the final calibrated image is irrelevant. In fact, the projector could even be off and the processor would go to scope mode.

A Scope film like SW - ANH (in fact all films will their studio page in the same format) starts with a FOX logo in Scope, so there is the cue for the system to kick in. If however you skip in a chapter so you start at the star field, then this is where a clear difference in video levels would pay off. If the bars are indeed RGB 0, and the star field is RGB 16, then there is clear difference between the black bars and the edge of the picture.

Optoma has had "auto black bar detection" to trigger lens transports on their higher end projectors for years. I've never tried it, though, so can't comment upon how well it works.

I would imagine that the Nolan Batman movies would drive it (and the viewer) crazy, though. Same with trying to watch standard HDTV, where many commercials these days are in the scope format. I imagine the commercial would be half over before the lens even moved into place

I don't think the rescaling/lens moving in/out would be fun on that film and TV would be pain.

My theater will be "done" on Friday when carpet is installed and I had planned to show this as my first movie. I have a Pany 4k and use the auto detection for scope and 16:9 content. So I can assume that my PJ is going to zoom in and out multiple times during the movie? I may have to disable it or just run in 16:9 mode.

Can someone give me the time code of the IMAX sections so I can try it out beforehand? I don't want to watch the whole movie and ruin the experience.

The movie has a number of scenes where the frame will switch from scope to IMAX for just a single shot, sometimes very short ones. There's very little rhyme or reason to the usage of IMAX in this movie.

Don't be too alarmed. If you have an A-Lens, what this in Scope all the way and if you don't. then you might be better off in 16:9.

Not just a lens, but if you are doing the zoom method AND have enough masking support either through your display device or a VP, masking the film to a constant 2.35 looks excellent.

Does the Panny 4000 have enough masking range to mask the IMAX sections down to 2.35? If it does have enough range, watching in a constant scope aspect and masking the top/bottom of the IMAX frame will work best. Either way, disable the auto detect as this movie switches MANY times and it would get very annoying.
Edited by Toe - 3/14/13 at 9:05am

I'll be running it tomorrow night so I'll disable the auto detect; that is what i was afraid of lots of "processing, processing" on screen.