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The Larch Theater (a not-a-19.6-system) - Page 9

post #241 of 380
Thread Starter 
No text message, they actually phoned me up. So no goo-blocker to the project. biggrin.gif
post #242 of 380
Thread Starter 
Front wall structurally done. Feels nice to pass that point. Means I will soon have possibility to do some work on the inner room acoustics and room design as well as the sound proofing. smile.gif
post #243 of 380
Thread Starter 
Tape and mud purchased on the lunch break, will use the front wall to experiment with/gain skill as it will mostly not be visible or at all.
post #244 of 380
Thread Starter 
Ok... It's settled... I'd make carpenter a hundred times sooner than painter... If it's patiens or manual micro-dexterity or what I don't know. Glad I'm not trying somewhere It'd really count.
post #245 of 380
Practice. smile.gif
post #246 of 380
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by just jim View Post

Practice. smile.gif

Sure, but in a project this small you probably don't get good enough until you've done with only poor results to show. rolleyes.gif
post #247 of 380
Thread Starter 
The advantage of the DIY lift compared to renting a lift on wheels:
lift_advantage.jpg


All the full DW to be set in the first layer up now
avs38.jpg

Just a few more along the right wall to put (after removing riser floor again) and then it's just all the overlapping pieces along the intersections left to fiddle with.

Am planning to test-listen to the current results before starting a 2nd layer DW on the ceiling, getting quite curious about how current state actually performs. And I need to set the speakers up and take measurements/draw lines on floor/walls to help plan the stage area...
post #248 of 380
If you are putting the second layer of DW up this year and these boards are pushed into the GG, I wouldn't worry too much about adding more than maybe 2 screws in between the 3 rows. When the 2nd layer goes up "soonish" maybe double the number of screws in it.

No the rental DW lift can't do that. biggrin.gif
post #249 of 380
Thread Starter 
I've added two more in the gaps on the long side, so about 20cm/8" inbetween them. None extra in the middle, that portion will get screws from next layer.

Left wall check off as done - both layers.
post #250 of 380
Thread Starter 
Took a room width measurement last night. Was about an inch less than my original calculations, thus I have reduced the width by 14". Positions of surround speakers will definitely have to be recalculated, I assume they will have to be repositioned by several inches to stay at the same relative angles...
post #251 of 380
Thread Starter 
avs39.jpg

Moved all the front speakers in position for measurements and later on some testing
avs40.jpg
post #252 of 380
So you will take acoustic measurements now as baseline, then as you continue completion of your HT will take more measurements at each stage, add carpet, add furniture, etc, to see evolution?


Via my 32GB iPhone4 using Tapatalk
post #253 of 380
Thread Starter 
Well, still not much use for that, as the room is only done the frontmost 60%, and I would probably need a more sofisticated measurement system for it as well to get the kind of accuracy needed to keep the measurement deviations less that the changes. So I'll be doing some of the stuff you'd really want me to do when the room is done before it is...

What I want to do know is to hook the fronts up and play some music and by ear and fingertips hear/feel what kind of improvment this part has had and then do something with the door and see how much that will improve.
post #254 of 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Well, still not much use for that, as the room is only done the frontmost 60%, and I would probably need a more sofisticated measurement system for it as well to get the kind of accuracy needed to keep the measurement deviations less that the changes. So I'll be doing some of the stuff you'd really want me to do when the room is done before it is...

What I want to do know is to hook the fronts up and play some music and by ear and fingertips hear/feel what kind of improvment this part has had and then do something with the door and see how much that will improve.

Just a thought, once you determine where your seats are, can you put some small eyelets into the ceiling, then put a same length string (nylon or maybe thin dia rubber coated cable - no stretch) to set your measurement mic at very close to same spot for each time re-measurement and compare.....

When you are "done", just remove those eyelets and either plug the hole or leave it there for future re-measurements......

I wish I had done that a while ago, too late for me.
post #255 of 380
Thread Starter 
Oh, I know where they are going, since theater 1.0 has already been run before.. Verified that distance front center tweeter to front center listening position is exactly ten feet (8inches shorter than before due to thicker front wall), thus I can calculate the positions of the fronts using the 1:1.18 T-quota and that's within an inch where the fronts are on the pic.

I don't have a measurement mic, thus far I've been using the built-in mic on my iPad.

RT60 would be interesting to measure from here on in, definitely. I do aim slightly lower than the recommendation for a livingroom as the room will mostly not be used for talking in. I have a severe clap echo currently.
post #256 of 380
How about one of these USB Mic's?
(the ones in that thread $70 USD or so)

RT60 is not really relevant for small acoustic space.
More so waterfall for below 250hz and gated ETC + freq resp plots for above 250hz

Here is a great thread on small room acoustic models, http://www.avsforum.com/t/1366724/comparison-of-small-room-acoustic-models-for-home-listening-spaces

I read/participated on and off, time to re-read and possible bring that thread back
post #257 of 380
Thread Starter 
There's no USB on an iPad. My laptop has been tested with borrowed USB test microphones and it generates severe interferance, unfortunately. My stationary is just that.

Exactly what do you mean a waterfall does that RT60 at different frequencies don't ? If I can get 200ms at a few samples between 100Hz and say 4kHz I'll be content.

I'll check that thread, thanks.
post #258 of 380
Thread Starter 
Have test played/listened tonight. Must say I'm quite pleased. The door going out seems to be by far the biggest leak, then followed by a less pronounced increase at the part I have not yet treated. Both sound by ear and vibrations by fingertips follow same pattern. So outside, just behind all the speakers, it's the most quiet spot now. I played quite high inside and the level of the leaked sound is easily dwarfed by other sounds heard outside, also from inside other houses like a kitchen cabinet door slam.
So quite possibly, this rebuild as it stands may actually be enough, but I don't believe I will just touch up the non-built region and call it a day. But I'm definitely thinking about not doing another dw layer in the ceiling.

On another note... I listened to some music, and these speakers are just magical... picked out a overdubbed vocal on one of my favourite tracks that I'm not sure I've heard before... and this in a room that is still very reverberant. Amazing things are bound to come later on. It's definitely not destroyed the music to loose those inches of width. *phew*
post #259 of 380
Sorry if I missed it..
What will your final room dimensions be (height/width/depth)?
post #260 of 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

There's no USB on an iPad. My laptop has been tested with borrowed USB test microphones and it generates severe interferance, unfortunately. My stationary is just that.

Exactly what do you mean a waterfall does that RT60 at different frequencies don't ? If I can get 200ms at a few samples between 100Hz and say 4kHz I'll be content.

I'll check that thread, thanks.

Too bad those USB Mic's don't work with your laptop, not sure if the guys in that thread have run into the same issue and could help you.

Waterfall is great to visually see your freq response and modal ringing issues below Fs, freq transition, which is approx 250hz in most HT's.
this is good primer on measurements, http://realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm

small acoustic spaces are not true reverberant fields, so really RT60 is not useful specifically except as a rough reference...go to index and read from page 48, I've got the book it is a very good read, a must IMO.
http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381609736&sr=1-1&keywords=toole+acoustics#reader_0240520092
post #261 of 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Have test played/listened tonight. Must say I'm quite pleased. The door going out seems to be by far the biggest leak, then followed by a less pronounced increase at the part I have not yet treated. Both sound by ear and vibrations by fingertips follow same pattern. So outside, just behind all the speakers, it's the most quiet spot now. I played quite high inside and the level of the leaked sound is easily dwarfed by other sounds heard outside, also from inside other houses like a kitchen cabinet door slam.
So quite possibly, this rebuild as it stands may actually be enough, but I don't believe I will just touch up the non-built region and call it a day. But I'm definitely thinking about not doing another dw layer in the ceiling.

On another note... I listened to some music, and these speakers are just magical... picked out a overdubbed vocal on one of my favourite tracks that I'm not sure I've heard before... and this in a room that is still very reverberant. Amazing things are bound to come later on. It's definitely not destroyed the music to loose those inches of width. *phew*

Congrats on the sound containment work you did meeting your expectations!!

My HT started with 1 door, then when I visited a friend in 2000 he had a whole basement HT/Rec room and I liked that openness for young family, so framed the HT for 2 doors install but for now just curtains.
IMG_1981.jpg

5 years later now my wife and I are contemplating adding the 2 doors, possibly a Spring 2014 project.
They would be Full core exterior sealed doors, with possible extra seals for noise path reduction.
post #262 of 380
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brwsaw View Post

Sorry if I missed it..
What will your final room dimensions be (height/width/depth)?

It's not totally known in the long dimension, as there's a wall left to build, but my best answer today is
W: 13,5'
H: 7.75'
L (of cinema room):17.33'
L (of acoustic space): 25.33'
post #263 of 380
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Waterfall is great to visually see your freq response and modal ringing issues below Fs, freq transition, which is approx 250hz in most HT's.

Ah, sorry. It's not the bass range I'm thinking about primarily here, it's higher up - I want a short decay time in the midrange too. Given it's primary use if cinema, I'm aiming for more dampened environment that I would have picked for just music. My livingroom lies in the 250-300ms range. But I see yout point. Doesn't seem to be a waterfall available in the Audiotool suite (yet) from StudioSix, which is what I'm using. But I wonder if perhaps the spectrograph in the Smaart couldn't be used for the same purpose? In that case I might consider buying that in-app-module too.

http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools/smaart_for_audiotools/
post #264 of 380
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Congrats on the sound containment work you did meeting your expectations!!

My HT started with 1 door, then when I visited a friend in 2000 he had a whole basement HT/Rec room and I liked that openness for young family, so framed the HT for 2 doors install but for now just curtains.
IMG_1981.jpg

5 years later now my wife and I are contemplating adding the 2 doors, possibly a Spring 2014 project.
They would be Full core exterior sealed doors, with possible extra seals for noise path reduction.

Thanks. More honestly I'd say it didn't live up to my fears. biggrin.gif


Good with long term planning. Such doors will make a great upgrade, methinks. smile.gif
post #265 of 380
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Here is a great thread on small room acoustic models, http://www.avsforum.com/t/1366724/comparison-of-small-room-acoustic-models-for-home-listening-spaces

I read/participated on and off, time to re-read and possible bring that thread back

Well.... that was at least 90% unuseful unless one wants to know how to sabotage a thread by turning it into a debate of definitions rather than going the "misunderstand me correctly" approach. I probably lost out on half the relevant info amongst the fighting...

So for the record, when I've said "reverberation" I guess I mean "decay" so substitute it correctly. I'm playing the "I'm not a native"-card language-wise. wink.gif
post #266 of 380
Thread Starter 
GG+DW on door. Definitely made exteriour background noise harder to hear 3 feet inside than before. From the outside it's more apparent it leaks around the cracks. So it definitely had some impact, though far from needed one.


Tried "War of the Worlds" at some high volume (-5 from REF) and you can definitely hear the lowest rumble, but nothing that really tells what it is. So, I definitely need to complete the build and perhaps that test will convince me to do the 2nd ceiling layer too?

But still, it's an extreme improvement and I can't know for sure how much low bass goes through the door and wraps around... it's way past my localization abilities....
post #267 of 380
So the neighbours weren't running outside, checking the skies this time? biggrin.gif Good stuff!

-5! How many subs did you have hooked up? ...and no seismic episodes recorded for your area at that time? smile.gif I get "looked" at if I go below 15. (I don't actually remember how/when I established "0")
post #268 of 380
Thread Starter 
No, but my daughter thought it was thundering outside- but that was on the side that the door opens to, neighbors are not (good break).

All six subs were active. You feel the impact of the sound physically inside. For some reason the amp didn't want to go higher than REF-2.5dB in that mode, in stereo mode it goes to (or beyond?) 0. Now, I can't trust the REF measurement anymore, it might be too high now with more stable walls. But I haven't done any more advanced tweak of the infrasonic lift, so I may have more bass in that range when that's done.

There is NO issue watching movies with any family member present at current stage, to have issues now it needs to be this lunatic himself or with equally crazy hifi-geeks visiting.
So in principle I could wrap it up and hope that connecting the new room to the old wouldn't re-introduce issues, but I am committed to doing the rear part too.What I am contemplating is the need for a 2nd ceiling layer or not...

I'm decided on skipping the build of a stage. This was played with all speakers on the floor, they will be on soft feet so those vibrations they set off now will be close to zero after that. And I don't want to lift the tweeter level much more for the front row, it will go up an inch with the 2nd layer floor I'll put there and the feet (22mm floor + a few mm on the feet (they are recessed into the speaker-foot) )
post #269 of 380
Thread Starter 
Noticing that I'm at or beyond the point of pre-planning, so it's going slower as I will need to sit down and contemplate next step instead of having it figured out beforehand.

Have bought wood for the dampingwall stops, for frames to go in front of corner sub and for pillars to hang the screen from. Also caulked around about half the floor up front, will have to do half at a time and then move the speakers to completed side. Will have to do 2nd layer drywall ceiling at least at this point, as I won't be able to change my mind later on.

Put up the triphase outlet and a normal power outlet, so those aren't hanging temporarily mid-air anymore, so that't one thing that's more complete now than in Cinema 1.0. smile.gif Did manage not to the ground fault breaker this time, instead I cut myself. Might have been a better to trip the breaker after all... cool.gif
post #270 of 380
With everything you've re-done, the 2nd layer of DW is a relatively very small thing at this point and probably worth it. You wouldn't want to get the 2 x 2's back up and then hear/measure something that shouldn't be! It is one less "what if".

There are always jobs where it doesn't matter what you do, "it's" out to get you! eek.gif Hope there wasn't too much splatter... wink.gif
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