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Once you've built your HTPC what then? Questions regarding xmbc, madvr, interframe and SVP

post #1 of 30
11/27/12 at 9:31pm
Thread Starter 
Little overwhelmed and before I go studying these things I just want to wrap my head around what they do and is it for me.

xmbc from my understand is a way to display and organize your stored media in an attractive way..... do you need software to play media or does xmbc take care of that as well?

If you have more than one pc sharing files from one central source do you need xmbc installed on the server and each front end pc?

madvr..... googling what it does I get a bunch of mumbo jumbo on rendering...... is this just for people creating high end graphics or do they mean rendering from the viewer at home as well? what this thing does is completely unclear to me. what does it do (in layman's terms) and why would someone want to do it?

interframe creates 60 fps files I get that I think.... I mean if I have dvds and plan on storing them digitally I might want to create new files at 60 fps and watch them later

svp does interframe in real time

is it correct to say that going from 24 to 60 fps is upsampling? I sometimes see this term being used but I thought it meant improving the resolution of a video..... are there two meanings? Or is that how upsamping is achieved.

I'm sorry these are probably basic questions but I'm finally nearing the htpc I want to build (see below).... although might want to make changes if going to madvr or svp or interframe are things that are of interest to me.....

Silverstone Milo ML03 HTPC Black Aluminum SECC mATX 2xUSB3.0 ports $70

Asus P8H77-I Socket 1155 Intel H77 Chipset Dual channel DDR3 2200(O.C.)/2133(O.C.)/1866/1600/1333/1066 MHz 1x PCI-Express 3.0 x16 GLAN 8-CH High Definition Audio 4x SATA 3.0Gb/s 2x SATA 6.0Gb/s 4x USB 3.0 8x USB 2.0 DVI/VGA/HDMI Mini ITX $99

Intel Core i5-3570 Quad-Core Socket LGA1155, 3.4Ghz, 6MB L3 Cache, 22nm (Retail Boxed) Gen3 (BX80637I53570)$220

G.SKILL Sniper Series 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 1600MHz CL9 Dual Channel Kit (F3-12800CL9D-8GBSR)
$43

Kingston SSDNow V200 256GB 2.5" SATA 6Gb/s Solid State Drive (SSD) w/Desktop Upgrade Kit (SV200S3D/256G) $155

LG (WH14NS40 BDXL) Internal 14x Blu-ray Writer (with Software), OEM
- Black, SATA BDXL, 3D Play Back. $60

WD Green (WD20EARX) 2TB SATA3 6Gb/s 64MB (OEM) $110

Seasonic X-400 Fanless Fully Modular 80PLUS Gold 400W PSU (SS-400FL Active PFC F3) $120


My current set up (in case it's relevant) includes
marantz av7005
emotiva xpa 5
jvc rs 45 (en route in the mail..... currently have a mits 5500)
mish mash of 5.1 speaker system
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post #2 of 30
11/27/12 at 9:34pm
Hmmm. If someone could have spent literally years testing/tinkering with all this hardware and software and then spent hundreds of additional hours creating and updating step by step illustrated guides to show others how he uses them.

Now that would be something! cool.gif
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post #3 of 30
11/27/12 at 10:05pm
Just compatibility issues...

Case and PSU: X-400 is too deep inside ML03, the max for this case is 140mm. The case supports only low-profile expansion cards. From what you stated, you seem to want to build a system for videophile. Then you'd better look for a larger case, e.g. GD04. Then X-400 is fine.

CPU: The processor is a good choice. Add a better cooler such as Scythe Big Shuriken 2.

Motherboard: Mini-ITX mb is pointless. Choose a microATX mb.

GPU: For the moment, you can use GPU integrated in the processor. It works just fine under the standard DXVA2 / EVR framework. Add a better graphics card later for madVR, SVP etc.
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post #4 of 30
11/27/12 at 10:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Hmmm. If someone could have spent literally years testing/tinkering with all this hardware and software and then spent hundreds of additional hours creating and updating step by step illustrated guides to show others how he uses them.
Now that would be something! cool.gif

I see what you did there....


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post #5 of 30
11/27/12 at 10:10pm
Listen to renethx btw...

his knowledge is ridiculous biggrin.gif
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post #6 of 30
11/27/12 at 10:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankcastle1975 View Post

Little overwhelmed and before I go studying these things I just want to wrap my head around what they do and is it for me.
xmbc from my understand is a way to display and organize your stored media in an attractive way..... do you need software to play media or does xmbc take care of that as well?
If you have more than one pc sharing files from one central source do you need xmbc installed on the server and each front end pc?
madvr..... googling what it does I get a bunch of mumbo jumbo on rendering...... is this just for people creating high end graphics or do they mean rendering from the viewer at home as well? what this thing does is completely unclear to me. what does it do (in layman's terms) and why would someone want to do it?
interframe creates 60 fps files I get that I think.... I mean if I have dvds and plan on storing them digitally I might want to create new files at 60 fps and watch them later
svp does interframe in real time
is it correct to say that going from 24 to 60 fps is upsampling? I sometimes see this term being used but I thought it meant improving the resolution of a video..... are there two meanings? Or is that how upsamping is achieved.
I'm sorry these are probably basic questions but I'm finally nearing the htpc I want to build (see below).... although might want to make changes if going to madvr or svp or interframe are things that are of interest to me.....

XBMC is the all in one application, download install and run. It needs to be installed on every PC that is connected to a TV or Display.

You are correct about Interframe and SVP, both use the underlying AviSynth engine.
A movie is typically encoded at 24fps, modern TVs refresh the screen at 60fps, so the work is fill in the missing frames by interpolating across the existing frames. to create the extra 36 frames in each second.
This is a lot of work and SVP used the GPU to help with the work.
The nice thing about SVP is that I do on my computer what used to take a broacast frame rate converter like a Teranex, these things cost $50K or more.

I use realtime conversion that is SVP, if you do the conversion with Interframe, the output has to be re-encoded and it must be a lossy encoding like H264 to save space.
The result is a 60fps version that is not as sharp as the original.

MadVR's job is to scale to the display resolution and do the color space conversion.

Digital video is not usually sored in RGB values like PC images instead it is broken up into 1 Intensity component (Y) and 2 color subcomponents (U and V)
There are formulas that convert between YUV and RGB, as there are several standards BT601 for Std Def and BT709 for HD
The math is here if you are interested https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV#BT.709_and_BT.601

This is quite a compute intensive exercise and MadVR uses the GPU to off load the work converting YUV to RGB for the PC to display.

The other thing MadVR does is scaling.
On codecs like MPEG2 or AVC/H264 the Intensity component and color components are encoded and stored separately.
Moreover the resolution of the color information is stored at a lower the resolution than Intensity. (4:2:0 Y'CbCr encoding)


MadVR restores this thru the YUV mapping described above. We are not done yet as this only bring us to the original resolution

MadVR then has to adjust this to the final size of the display such as 1920x1080

The built in DXVA subsystem in Windows does the same thing if you use the EVR renderer, MadVR does the job with higher precision.
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post #7 of 30
11/27/12 at 11:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Hmmm. If someone could have spent literally years testing/tinkering with all this hardware and software and then spent hundreds of additional hours creating and updating step by step illustrated guides to show others how he uses them.
Now that would be something! cool.gif

Actually I already bought the $25 passes to your site,(same user name)

And while it looks great I'm still at the stage of trying to figure out what to read about.

You've provided a library I'm trying to figure out which book to sign out. Hopefully there's a librarian. biggrin.gif
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post #8 of 30
11/27/12 at 11:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Just compatibility issues...
Case and PSU: X-400 is too deep inside ML03, the max for this case is 140mm. The case supports only low-profile expansion cards. From what you stated, you seem to want to build a system for videophile. Then you'd better look for a larger case, e.g. GD04. Then X-400 is fine.
CPU: The processor is a good choice. Add a better cooler such as Scythe Big Shuriken 2.
Motherboard: Mini-ITX mb is pointless. Choose a microATX mb.
GPU: For the moment, you can use GPU integrated in the processor. It works just fine under the standard DXVA2 / EVR framework. Add a better graphics card later for madVR, SVP etc.

Thanks for the tip was by no means married to that case. Would rather have the ps fit in the case rather than a ps that fits the case.
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post #9 of 30
11/28/12 at 7:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tong Chia View Post

XBMC is the all in one application, download install and run. It needs to be installed on every PC that is connected to a TV or Display.
You are correct about Interframe and SVP, both use the underlying AviSynth engine.
A movie is typically encoded at 24fps, modern TVs refresh the screen at 60fps, so the work is fill in the missing frames by interpolating across the existing frames. to create the extra 36 frames in each second.
This is a lot of work and SVP used the GPU to help with the work.
The nice thing about SVP is that I do on my computer what used to take a broacast frame rate converter like a Teranex, these things cost $50K or more.
I use realtime conversion that is SVP, if you do the conversion with Interframe, the output has to be re-encoded and it must be a lossy encoding like H264 to save space.
The result is a 60fps version that is not as sharp as the original.
MadVR's job is to scale to the display resolution and do the color space conversion.
Digital video is not usually sored in RGB values like PC images instead it is broken up into 1 Intensity component (Y) and 2 color subcomponents (U and V)
There are formulas that convert between YUV and RGB, as there are several standards BT601 for Std Def and BT709 for HD
The math is here if you are interested https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV#BT.709_and_BT.601
This is quite a compute intensive exercise and MadVR uses the GPU to off load the work converting YUV to RGB for the PC to display.
The other thing MadVR does is scaling.
On codecs like MPEG2 or AVC/H264 the Intensity component and color components are encoded and stored separately.
Moreover the resolution of the color information is stored at a lower the resolution than Intensity. (4:2:0 Y'CbCr encoding)
MadVR restores this thru the YUV mapping described above. We are not done yet as this only bring us to the original resolution
MadVR then has to adjust this to the final size of the display such as 1920x1080
The built in DXVA subsystem in Windows does the same thing if you use the EVR renderer, MadVR does the job with higher precision.

So is it corrrrect to say that SVP and IF are invovled in changing the frame rate from 24 to 60 fps?

The increease in fps results smoother picture?

If given the choice IF does a better job of this than SVP?

MadVR is for controlling the colour display. Without MadVr does that mean the colour will be slightly off from what it should be?

You mention that MadVR also adjusts the final size to 1920x1080.....does that mean MadVR cn be used for reducing the amount of black bars on your projection screen? OR is that something else?

Is it fair to say that the effects of these programs is less if the source is blu ray?

It sounds to me like yes I want a machine that can do thise things.....and I think I have specced one out that can do it. As to how quickly I adpot these things well that's another story. I'm lucky to hae an hour or two to myself when everyone goes to bed and frankly just sitting and wathing a movie is prefereable than what ometimes feels like taking a night class! biggrin.gif

Thanks for the resonses.

PS is this just a cheaper/diy approach to buying video processor?
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post #10 of 30
11/28/12 at 7:38am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but interframe is going to do what the motion smoother on your tv does: add extra frames to the video and smooth out the picture. Some people like it, but I personally hate it as it makes everything look fake. It is often called the soap-opera effect.

Madvr can do frame-rate switching, which if your tv supports it, is nice. Otherwise you can have madvr switch the frame and then just let the 3:2 pulldown on the tv do its thing.
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post #11 of 30
11/28/12 at 10:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankcastle1975 View Post

So is it corrrrect to say that SVP and IF are invovled in changing the frame rate from 24 to 60 fps?
Yes
Quote:
The increease in fps results smoother picture?
Yes
Quote:
If given the choice IF does a better job of this than SVP?
It can depending on how you setup each program. More is complex interpolation is not necessarily better, the lack of motion blur during wideshot or panoramic pans lead some people to complain about the "soap opera" effect if too much processing is used.
Quote:
MadVR is for controlling the colour display. Without MadVr does that mean the colour will be slightly off from what it should be?
The colours look more washed out with the defaullt Win7 EVR renderer, for example in the opening scene of Sherlock Holmes A Game of Shadows the deep dark shades of the velvet in the first Moriarity scene is just about invisible with the EVR renderer. The wallpaper patterns in the hall scene where Dr Watson enters is quite indistinct compared to MadVR.
Quote:
You mention that MadVR also adjusts the final size to 1920x1080.....does that mean MadVR cn be used for reducing the amount of black bars on your projection screen? OR is that something else?
This is a function of the player you are using, MPC-HC or Jriver MC have lots of options to deal with this.
Quote:
Is it fair to say that the effects of these programs is less if the source is blu ray?
Quite the opposite, MadVR adds the colour vibrance I see in the film version back to the home PC setup. I find the PQ from TMT or PowerDVD uninspiring, full of microstuttering compared to SVP. + MadVR. I only keep them around for emergencies.
Quote:
PS is this just a cheaper/diy approach to buying video processor?
That depends on how you build it. I have a DVDO edge gathering dust and it is looking increasingly likely I will abandon plans to get a Lumagen Radiance
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post #12 of 30
11/29/12 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankcastle1975 View Post

Actually I already bought the $25 passes to your site,(same user name)
And while it looks great I'm still at the stage of trying to figure out what to read about.
You've provided a library I'm trying to figure out which book to sign out. Hopefully there's a librarian. biggrin.gif

Start at Hardware then go to installing windows... then setting up software.... it basically walks you through it step by step in order.

Just click the next arrow at the bottom of each page.

It's an amazing resource if your starting out fresh.
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post #13 of 30
12/15/12 at 10:08am
how did it go OP ?
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post #14 of 30
12/15/12 at 5:32pm
This is great info...thanks!
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post #15 of 30
12/20/12 at 2:29pm
Thread Starter 
Mfusick,

Thanks for asking how things are going.

To get the money to do this build I sold a bunch of things on ebay to my dismay I didn't realize there was a wait time before you got the money.

Anyways, the money is flowing in now.

I bought a Silverstone Grandia GD06 (bigger box)
And bought the seasonic x-400 fanless

I chose to buy these two items as the case was the last one in the store and there were only 3 of the power units left.

I'm holding out till boxing day to see if I can save on some of the other components.

I might go down from the i5 3570K to the i3 3225 as both are equiped with hd4000..... depends on if there are any sales.

I think I'm going to look at a few different mobos so that if there is one on sale I will pick that up.

I guess this was a long way of saying.... slow. biggrin.gif
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post #16 of 30
12/20/12 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankcastle1975 View Post

Mfusick,
Thanks for asking how things are going.
To get the money to do this build I sold a bunch of things on ebay to my dismay I didn't realize there was a wait time before you got the money.
Anyways, the money is flowing in now.
I bought a Silverstone Grandia GD06 (bigger box)
And bought the seasonic x-400 fanless
I chose to buy these two items as the case was the last one in the store and there were only 3 of the power units left.
I'm holding out till boxing day to see if I can save on some of the other components.
I might go down from the i5 3570K to the i3 3225 as both are equiped with hd4000..... depends on if there are any sales.
I think I'm going to look at a few different mobos so that if there is one on sale I will pick that up.
I guess this was a long way of saying.... slow. biggrin.gif

It's like being a kid counting down the days until Christmas.
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post #17 of 30
12/20/12 at 3:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdkhang View Post

It's like being a kid counting down the days until Christmas.

LOL except I have to add 1 to it biggrin.gif

Even if there are no deals on the parts that I want it's fine. I'd just hate to buy now and fidn out I could have save a few bucks.
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post #18 of 30
12/20/12 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankcastle1975 View Post

LOL except I have to add 1 to it biggrin.gif
Even if there are no deals on the parts that I want it's fine. I'd just hate to buy now and fidn out I could have save a few bucks.

I spent much longer putting together my first HTPC way back then. Still have fond memories when it all came together (took some time) and I was playing DVDs upscaled via FFDShow lanczos to my projector using a bit of free software that could actually do VR9 Renderless fullscreen exclusive mode and supported Dscaler codecs smile.gif Stand-alone DVD players in those days just did not stand a chance.

I'm updating my HTPCs, one at a time though, just to see what kind of power I am likely to need. Starting low with a 3225 and using HD4000. Dining room HTPC has the lowest requirements so if anything is insufficient then it goes there, next up is living room HTPC and finally the better hardware will be saved for the theatre room htpc. Main bedroom also has a TV that gets good usage but will wait a bit to make a decision regarding Intel NUC and to see if any other OEMs adopt that form factor.
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post #19 of 30
12/20/12 at 8:30pm
I'm also in the process of upgrading my HTPC. I had to give up a PCI-e slot in my existing motherboard to use an Intel NIC in place of the onboard Realtek POS. The result was endless experimenting with tuners to replace the pair that used to be in the PCI-e slot now occupied by the NIC. I finally succumbed and bought a new MSI ATX motherboard from MicroCenter that has seven PCI-e slots. I bundled it with an Intel i3 3225 CPU for a great discount. I'm hoping to get it up and running over the holidays as soon as the memory arrives from Newegg.

Seriously, you have a HTPC in the dining room? Now that's a real diehard.biggrin.gif I'm waiting on my RMA'd Ceton Echo replacement to arrive for my spare bedroom. I've got a SFF HTPC there now, but it gets so little use that it makes no sense to keep it there. I figured the Echo should be all I need if they can ever get the bugs out of it. I'm in the beta program for the Echo and mine was flaky from the start.. I'm hoping the replacement unit will perform better than the first one.
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post #20 of 30
12/26/12 at 1:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

how did it go OP ?

Some progress

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1447552/boxing-day-plunder-and-a-question-regarding-the-cases-i-bought-and-advice-on-psu-and-a-few-other-questions
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post #21 of 30
12/28/12 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankcastle1975 View Post

Some progress
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1447552/boxing-day-plunder-and-a-question-regarding-the-cases-i-bought-and-advice-on-psu-and-a-few-other-questions

Cool !
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post #22 of 30
1/4/13 at 4:02pm
Thread Starter 
Okay brought home t
he new baby. $50 to install and $20 for a one year warranty (I know not necessary but $20 is not a big deal)


Computer #1 HTPC, Blu Ray, 3D, light gamimg,, blu ray ripping, Netflix, eventual front end for my home theatre (server still to come), sharing of media on externals hooked to a laptop

Case: SilverStone GD06

Mobo: Gigabyte Z77M-D3H-MVP

CPU: i5-3570

RAM: Corsair Vengeance Low Profile 2x4 gb 1600 CL8

Hard Drive: 2 TB WD Green

Optical Drive: LG BH14 14x blu ray writer

SSD: A DATA SX900 128 GB

PSU: Corsair CX500

Installed Windows 7 64 bit home (by luck it was on sale at $90 at Canada Computer this weekend) bought an extra copy of this plus another 2 TB WD Green for 90 also on sale for this weekend for my second build. Second build is similar to above excpet 256 gb Samsung SSD and Fanless Seasonic 400W power supply......just need a case.... might repeat or look at a Silverstone SUGO.... CPU probably i3 with hd4000 graphics.... going to use the current computer with stock cpu fan before deciding if the other one needs an after market one.... might just do it so that it will be as quiet as possible.


Windows was quick and painless to install.

Next step look at software to play blu rays and 3d (if xmbc doesn't do that)
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post #23 of 30
1/5/13 at 10:32pm
Thread Starter 
Things that I have learned thus far

1) once you bring a PC home that has been assembled by a store and you have personally installed Windows you have to run a disc provided by the mobo to install network drivers and a number of other things. I had incorrectly assumed that once Windows was installed I could surf the net and control the sound output. After installing the drivers surfing was now possible and I was able to switch the sound to go out the hdmi and it detected that I was feeding it to a Marantz AV7005 pre amp.

2) Xmbc installation is fast and free! But I am intending to use Assassin's blog to help me navigate synching my externals of media with xmbc. But it's late.

Next step..... look for a blu ray/3d play back program
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post #24 of 30
1/5/13 at 10:37pm
Thread Starter 
Powerdvd 12 looks like the choice. PRetty pricey program but I guess that's what one has to do.
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post #25 of 30
1/6/13 at 11:39am
Thread Starter 
Did a bunch of boring things..... installed AVG antivirus and Spybot to the PC

Fun stuff......

Okay installed powerdvd 12

Works fairly well..... for now I am using a wired mouse and keyboard but eventually will switch to something wireless and more comfortable from the couch.

I have a 24" LED screen that I have offset to the side of the theatre/room and may connect it through my pre amp av7005 as a second display so that I don't have to use my pj when using the PC.

Powerdvd strikes me as having a lot of bells and whistles and many automated features )/e.g. warning you that the mouse is not supported for certain functions or that the refresh does not match up with the display device and do I want it to makethem match)



CAN'T SAY ENOUGH GOOD THINGS ABOUT ASSASSIN'S BLOG

I have used it to install xmbc..... didn't need blog for that BUUUUUT

It has made the process of adding movies to xmbc extremely easy as you might have to click around till you found the options on your own.

Right now I'm working on just adding one external worth of movies so it's taking a while as there are probably 1TB of content.

Can't wait to see the end result.

Next Steps:
-add TV shows to XMBC
-try different skins
-read up on options for keyboard and mouse from the couch
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post #26 of 30
1/6/13 at 12:28pm
AVG is useless and Spybot is even worse. I'd just MSE. PowerDVD also has Cinavia. Just letting you know . . . . .
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post #27 of 30
1/6/13 at 8:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiddles88 View Post

AVG is useless and Spybot is even worse. I'd just MSE. PowerDVD also has Cinavia. Just letting you know . . . . .

I assume MSE is microsoft essentials?

I always used thsoe programs out of habit.... never really shopped around. But thanks I'll take that into consideration. Is there anything in particular that makes mse better?
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post #28 of 30
1/7/13 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankcastle1975 View Post

I assume MSE is microsoft essentials?
I always used thsoe programs out of habit.... never really shopped around. But thanks I'll take that into consideration. Is there anything in particular that makes mse better?
MSE = Microsoft Security Essentials. Totally free and updated constantly. It will block and prevent the vast majority of viruses from invading your HTPC as effectively as the majority of paid AV apps out there. Completely unobtrusive when used on a HTPC, unlike some other AV programs (avoid Kaspersky on a HTPC like the plague, pun intended). You also don't get the annual license renewal nags like you do with the paid programs.
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post #29 of 30
1/7/13 at 4:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

MSE = Microsoft Security Essentials. Totally free and updated constantly. It will block and prevent the vast majority of viruses from invading your HTPC as effectively as the majority of paid AV apps out there. Completely unobtrusive when used on a HTPC, unlike some other AV programs (avoid Kaspersky on a HTPC like the plague, pun intended). You also don't get the annual license renewal nags like you do with the paid programs.

I'll take that underadvisement...... both those programs I use are free as well.

AVG does give you a prompt when new updates have been downloaded so if you don't like the woman's voice that could get annoying I guess.

Spybot is pretty quiet.

AVG once a year asks you to renew your free licence.
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post #30 of 30
1/7/13 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankcastle1975 View Post

CAN'T SAY ENOUGH GOOD THINGS ABOUT ASSASSIN'S BLOG

Thanks. Glad you appreciate it.
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