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Small Northeast DIY GTG - Saturday, December 15th - Page 3

post #61 of 92
yea i suck at proofreading and typing
post #62 of 92
Who brought the SI18??? I thought the first shipment of those drivers wasn't due to arrive in the US until the end of this year.
post #63 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Who brought the SI18??? I thought the first shipment of those drivers wasn't due to arrive in the US until the end of this year.

Bootleg! biggrin.gif
post #64 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Who brought the SI18??? I thought the first shipment of those drivers wasn't due to arrive in the US until the end of this year.

Andrew had it, its one of the prototypes. i believe its the one Ricci had for testing. he should be getting a 2nd one soon (this week?) to toss in a one of the dual boxes to compare to the daytons
post #65 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

Andrew had it, its one of the prototypes. i believe its the one Ricci had for testing. he should be getting a 2nd one soon (this week?) to toss in a one of the dual boxes to compare to the daytons

Correct. Austin aka popabass put in some legwork to get us 1 (and eventually 2) of the Si prototype drivers to play with. As soon as the driver comes in I will be ready for it. I will be painting the 4th enclosure on Wednesday night. smile.gif
post #66 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Correct. Austin aka popabass put in some legwork to get us 1 (and eventually 2) of the Si prototype drivers to play with. As soon as the driver comes in I will be ready for it. I will be painting the 4th enclosure on Wednesday night. smile.gif

FYI. I did a bit of free-air testing on the prototype before I brought it to Rillas and it was exhibiting some odd behavior. I went back to read Ricci's input on data-bass and there was no mention of this behavior. Basically it was making a scratching sound well before it's xmax.

The box it was shipped in looked like it had definitely made it's rounds and had a few impact points. I had a conversation with Nick @ SI and showed him a video of what I was referring too.

He mentioned that there is only a 2mm tollerance between the VC and motor and it's likely that something was jarred loose during shipping to my location. With that said, he mentioned that the drivers were designed so owners could literally kick the crap out of them without issue and that it's possible once the driver is mounted in the Dual Opposed box with the other prototype, the "air spring" from the box may negate the issue. If not, he said to ship the driver back to him and he'll send us out another one to complete our testing...

Having had a chance to hear Andrew's HO's in person, and seeing how similar the SI's measured on data-bass, I'm wondering how many of us eastcoasters are going to want to jump on a few once we get some real-world "in-room" measurements?

I'm still planning on trying to offload my LMS-U's to try to scoop up 12-16 of them. That plan is contingent upon my marriage surviving the transaction...
post #67 of 92
A few notes on the Sump Basins. They are perfectly decent subwoofers when sealed, but adding a port provided such an amazing boost in efficiency - right in the most crucial range (for me) - that I converted all four to full ported before the GTG. I originally intended to test them sealed, but since I will never use them sealed I don't see the point. The sump basin works better ported.

The tuning is variable by adding pipe lengths to the port's exit. Tuning was extended downward from the default 17hz, to about 14Hz in the configuration I used at the GTG. Longer tubes = lower tune and that's the main feature of the subs, the ease with which the tuning can be changed to specific frequencies. The 'dip' at 30hz represents the beginning of the (current) port's contribution to output, which peaks at +8db (vs. sealed) right around 16hz - the effect is clearly visible in the measurements. The loss of output at 30hz has to be compensated for with EQ - which I intended to do with the Crown's DSP. I had issues connecting my laptop so I depended on Gorilla's Omnimic setup instead. I've never used it, so in the name of keeping things moving, I did a below-par job with the EQ. The subs were not positioned in any particular manner - they did not fit into Gorilla's HT setup because they are too tall. I'm sure optimizing their position within the room would yield better measurements at the LP.

The main benefits of the build are as follows - Minimal tools, locally available parts, low cost, high performance, light weight and durability. I'm especially happy with how easy the whole system was to transport. The minuses amount to the space they take up and aesthetics. I'm really glad to have independent verification they are generating strong, clean bass sound from 10hz on up. That was a crucial point in my going DIY, so that I am able to mix my music with relative accuracy in the infrasonic realm.

I learned the value of a dedicated 20 amp line. My Crown XTi-2002 flashed clipping lights a number of times but never faltered, nor did the subs. If I try the same trick at home it's now clear that I run out of juice at the wall before getting the full performance from the amp. The other surprise - how identical the EP-4000 is to the XTi-2002 in terms of power output and SQ. They are essentially identical. With the Crown you pay for lighter weight and DSP, not more or 'better' power. On the flip side, using the Crown makes the whole system self-contained and light enough where one person of modest strength (me) can move the entire system by themselves. I can imagine a hip-hop Busker in NYC bringing one of these into the subway as part of their 'street' rig.

edit - more notes

Here are the WinISD curves, the ported models have interior volume calculated as 135 liters, vs. 144 for the sealed. With four subs, the 14hz tune can hit 115db reference with 'full' power (400 watts RMS each), the 17hz tune can do it with 200 watts each. During testing, we clipped the amp and the drivers themselves never faltered. I actually have no clue what it would take for them to hit their limits, since Sony's specs are all over the place and (in my opinion) inaccurate, erring on the side of caution. It's hard to believe these subs have an xmax of only 6mm considering their output.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Mark - Thanks for posting your thoughts! Looking forward to hearing from Nathan and Adam too.
Here are a few of my own:
A few notes - This was a very informal GTG for us to just hang out and listen to a few clips on all the setups. We used my Denon 4311ci receiver, minidsp for eq, SHO-10s up front, and my PS3 / Mark's laptop for media content. My room has some basic treatments including front and rear bass traps, and side wall reflection panels. A variety of amps were used throughout the day including Mark's Crown XTI2002, my EP4000, and my LG Clone FP14000. We listened to a few popular clips from the Art of Flight Blu ray, the Scuba Steve disc (Hulk, HTTYD, WOTW, BHD Irene) as well as a few Blu Ray concert clips I'm familiar with. We also played around a bit with the 10hz to 100hz sine waves at moderate levels. In addition, Mark played a number of his own creations and even broke out the synthesizer at one point, which was pretty neat. It was amazing how quickly the day went with just a few simple setups and really no formalized process.
A few measurements - these were all matched to the same level at 20hz - with the sump basin setup in the mix this was really the only logical point. I'm aware this isn't ideal, but it was what we had to work with.
Before EQ:

After EQ - keep in mind none of us spent an extraordinary amount of time with the eq process, we did our best with just a few simple filters.

Mark's 4 X ported Sump basin setup powered by a Crown XTI2002 - Wow, you guys have got to see the pictures when Adam gets them up. A+ for creativity for sure - we all agreed they look like they belong in a sci-fi film. We hooked these up for fun - and a lot of it we had. We listened to a majority of Mark's created music with these (house/electronic/dubstep - please correct me if I'm mislabeling!. I was impressed they had some decent impact in my room which tends to really suck up the bass! The presence of these 4 beasts in the front of my room had a dominating effect. smile.gif Check out the output at 20hz and below with these guys. The overall curve was a bit crazy, likely due to Mark's port tune. Mark experimented with various points of EQ using my minidsp to try to smooth the curve out a bit as you can see before/after EQ. Mark can probably add some additional details to the build.

Edited by imagic - 12/17/12 at 11:01am
post #68 of 92
Hey slap that SI driver in a box and try it. A lot of times there are a multitude of noises from drivers run near xmax in free air that disappear in box. It was in good shape when it left here and I dont remember any noises like that. After the high power tests outside I always have to check the drivers at home for damage. I dont remember any scratching. The box was in good shape too.
post #69 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Hey slap that SI driver in a box and try it. A lot of times there are a multitude of noises from drivers run near xmax in free air that disappear in box. It was in good shape when it left here and I dont remember any noises like that. After the high power tests outside I always have to check the drivers at home for damage. I dont remember any scratching. The box was in good shape too.

Will do. I didn't notice anything odd when playing with the drivers. No scraping or anything when the cone moves manually. Both VC's measured OK too.
post #70 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Hey slap that SI driver in a box and try it. A lot of times there are a multitude of noises from drivers run near xmax in free air that disappear in box. It was in good shape when it left here and I dont remember any noises like that. After the high power tests outside I always have to check the drivers at home for damage. I dont remember any scratching. The box was in good shape too.

Great point Ricci! I didn't get a chance to slap in in a box before I brought it to Rilla's. I remember my LMS-U's were even making funky sounds while free air testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Will do. I didn't notice anything odd when playing with the drivers. No scraping or anything when the cone moves manually. Both VC's measured OK too.

Great! Prob just me then... =)

I guess you could toss it in that 2.0ft^3 I left for you bro. Just to see how she performs in box!

Sent you the updated tracking info on the second driver. It might beat your Dayton's to your house...

Check this out... Profile shot of the SI next to the LMS-U. ~$200 driver looking as sexy as a $900+ driver. Who would have imagined!

post #71 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Check this out... Profile shot of the SI next to the LMS-U. ~$200 driver looking as sexy as a $900+ driver. Who would have imagined!

I'm an ass end guy myself. biggrin.gif
post #72 of 92
2.0 cuft might be a little small don't you think? Even on their site they are saying it wants around 6 cuft sealed. That sounds a little high to me, but I was thinking more along the lines of 3.5-4 cuft once all is said and done biggrin.gif
post #73 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I'm still planning on trying to offload my LMS-U's to try to scoop up 12-16 of them. That plan is contingent upon my marriage surviving the transaction...

Marriage? You'll be lucky to survive. Period. It's been nice knowing you Austin. RIP...
post #74 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

2.0 cuft might be a little small don't you think? Even on their site they are saying it wants around 6 cuft sealed. That sounds a little high to me, but I was thinking more along the lines of 3.5-4 cuft once all is said and done biggrin.gif

Agreed 100%. The only point of the exercise would be to check if the mechanical noise made free air would go away in box. The second driver is on its way though, so might as well just wait and load them up in the dual opposed box I suppose.

Rilla, I called beast last night and he brought up a good point about VC alignment issues he had on one of his old subs. You mind elaborating a bit beast? Great info and I think it may be relevant to this issue, I just don't want to mis-quote you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Marriage? You'll be lucky to survive. Period. It's been nice knowing you Austin. RIP...

I can always count on Jim to keep it real...lol

Thanks for the vote of confidence buddy. If I bring my 16 subs with me when she kicks me out, will you let me crash at your place for a few weeks? Will trade SPL for shelter...
post #75 of 92
Thread Starter 
The next round of Daytons, the SIs, and the terminals I need for the boxes will be here tomorrow sometime. I'm going to stuff the SI's in the box I have finished already so I can continue to work on #4 from Austin and get that finished up. I still have 3-4 hours of finishing work before paint on the last box so this will allow me to test the SIs a bit more quickly. The tough part is going to be finding some to do some real testing in the next week! frown.gif We have family coming over Friday through Tuesday next week. I do have all of next week off from work though. biggrin.gif If anyone wants to stop over next week to check out both setups, by all means give me a shout.
post #76 of 92
” will trade spl for shelter” lol!
post #77 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Thanks for the vote of confidence buddy. If I bring my 16 subs with me when she kicks me out, will you let me crash at your place for a few weeks? Will trade SPL for shelter...

If you show up at my house with 16 subs I'm afraid there won't be any shelter about an hour later. Unless I hide the remote from you...

Are you going to be at the GTG in March? So long as it's not the weekend of the 23rd (hint, hint Andrew) I can make it - that's my daughters birthday. Anything other then that weekend and I'm in.
post #78 of 92
Quote:
Rilla, I called beast last night and he brought up a good point about VC alignment issues he had on one of his old subs. You mind elaborating a bit beast? Great info and I think it may be relevant to this issue, I just don't want to mis-quote you.

Essentially, If a driver is run hard enough, and the VC leaves the gap even by a hair, it can sometimes re-seat itself a little bit off. I had this happen with one of my tempests and now it knocks if it isnt oriented properly. If I put the box with lets say point "A" on the diameter of the woofer at 12:00 and ran it, the knock would happen on larger excursion passages. If I took the box and flipped it over so point "A" is now at 6:00 then it would operate just as if it was brand new. Just something worth pointing out when you go to seat the drivers in the box, as this may be a good way to prevent that noise from happening, assuming that is actually what is causing it. A bang in shipping or debris in the VC could also make similar noises.

Another thing I didnt think about is you may want to inspect the spider to see if anything is coming undone around the outside. Just some thoughts to troubleshoot smile.gif
post #79 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

We also did some last minute listening with the SHO-10s vs. a pair of loudspeakers than Nathan brought over - I'm sure he can share some more details on them.
.


I bought my Dad the Sho-10's a few years ago so I have some experience with them. Anyone care to elaborate on this faceoff.smile.gif
post #80 of 92
Thread Starter 
Nathan brought over a pair of speakers he picked up I believe for ~175 ish used. He was considering upgrading to the SHOs so he wanted to listen to my front stage. His speakers are also high efficiency and I thought they sounded damn good. If I were in his shoes unless I wanted every last DB of output I probably would save the 800-1000 dollars required to upgrade to the SHO front stage.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 12/18/12 at 10:08am
post #81 of 92
Wish I could have made it out! Sounds like another great time was had.

---What I feared happened to me, all packed up walking out the door at the office: Boss man walks over, "Hey could you work tommorow (Saturday)" At this point the only answer is "Sure!"

So yeah that happened..... the next one though.....I am there.
post #82 of 92
Nathan's speakers were a old pair of DCM's i forget which, I agree they sounded very good and had great imaging, He said he has 4 and was planning on using 3 as a front stage, Pretty sure we all agreed they should work great for that and sounded very good. no reason to spend money if what you have works
post #83 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

Wish I could have made it out! Sounds like another great time was had.
---What I feared happened to me, all packed up walking out the door at the office: Boss man walks over, "Hey could you work tommorow (Saturday)" At this point the only answer is "Sure!"
So yeah that happened..... the next one though.....I am there.

post #84 of 92
Hah, I did take one picture when I was there...

post #85 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

Wish I could have made it out! Sounds like another great time was had.
---What I feared happened to me, all packed up walking out the door at the office: Boss man walks over, "Hey could you work tommorow (Saturday)" At this point the only answer is "Sure!"
So yeah that happened..... the next one though.....I am there.

Ugh, that sucks. It was a good time for sure. I'm going to throw up a poll for dates in March/April for a speaker shootout in the speaker section. I'd imagine some will want to mix in some subs as well. We may need you to play DJ again. Heck we can probably reuse many of the same clips biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Hah, I did take one picture when I was there...

Nice pic, thanks for sharing Mark!
post #86 of 92
G-man, if you would like, my Seos speakers should be done long before then. I would be happy to participate!
post #87 of 92
I cannot wait for March/April. My subwoofer powers will have grown exponentially by then biggrin.gif
post #88 of 92
How was the XLS5000 vs the clone?
post #89 of 92
Thread Starter 
We didn't use the XLS5000 at this meet, but I did post some brief comments when I switched amps last week:
Quote:
Listening impressions with the clone amp: So far so good. I have it running in 8 ohm stereo with I believe is rated around 2350/channel. Output wise seems very comparable to the Crown XLS5000 in 2 ohm stereo. I've been POUNDING music for the last 20 minutes at crazy volumes and the case is literally cold, lol. (not kidding). Sound quality is awesome too, super clean and tight as expected. More to come, movies next.
post #90 of 92
Thread Starter 
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