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The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 8

post #211 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

I do believe this directly contradicts Point 2 in your signature. wink.gif

Touché BllDo, touché!!
post #212 of 897
What did you settle on for a chair rail height? IIRC you mentioned that you were planning to lower yours a bit to accommodate your treatments. I'm thinking something like 24" - 25" for my theater. I know that 32" - 36" is most common, but I've been reading up on it a bit, and that's apparently not ideal. Something like 20% - 25% of your wall height is supposed to be more pleasing to the eye. Of course, that's the answer I WANT, but might not be the right answer rolleyes.gif
post #213 of 897
I agree that 32"+ looks odd in a house with standard ceiling heights. I think you are right when you are talking about 24" or so.

Here is a good article to take a look at. http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/12/03/misused-confused-chair-rail/

I think a lot of it is going to come down to whether chair rail is decorative or functional. In a theater, I am not sure what would look best. I doubt you would ever want chair rail height near the back height of a theater seat unless you had 16' ceilings, but I am not sure. Would be a good thing to lay out in a program like Sketchup and see what looks best to you.

Shan
Edited by Shan - 1/5/13 at 3:52pm
post #214 of 897
Well, this is the second time today that my post disappeared into the Internet ether. We'll try again.

That article is actually what prompted the question. I found it after I got my layout back from Dennis and realized my treatments would need to be lower than the "standard" chair rail height. I've tried to model it in Sketchup, but it's still hard to get a feel for what it will look like when you are actually in the room. It seemed like TMcG is running into similar issues, so I thought I'd ask how others are handling it.
post #215 of 897
In my theater I'm planning about 36" high for the bottom row and about 23" high for the rear row and stage.

The 23" is too low in my opinion and 36" is a tad too high

Concrete to ceiling is about 9' and concrete to soffit is about 7' 6"
2nd row is about 12" shorter in both sections
post #216 of 897
I'm doing something similar and everything I've read mentions 30" - 36" or approx. 1/3 wall height. This is for standard chair rail and wainscoting though. I think I've got mine designed for 32".
post #217 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

What did you settle on for a chair rail height? IIRC you mentioned that you were planning to lower yours a bit to accommodate your treatments. I'm thinking something like 24" - 25" for my theater. I know that 32" - 36" is most common, but I've been reading up on it a bit, and that's apparently not ideal. Something like 20% - 25% of your wall height is supposed to be more pleasing to the eye. Of course, that's the answer I WANT, but might not be the right answer rolleyes.gif

This is not set in stone yet, but currently I have the chair rail height right around 29". Typically speaking, the reason for going with a lower chair rail height is to get acoustic treatments at the point of first reflection, especially for those in the front row whose ears are probably 36 inches off the ground. I might actually put it a bit lower, but having the 29" height allows me to keep the chair rail at the same level the whole way around the room, even in the area above the riser. If I started my chair rail at 24" OC and used a 4" wide chair rail, by the time I factored in the 11.75" riser base I would only have about 10" left under the chair rail. Factor in the height of my base molding and there wouldn't be much left in terms of room for panel molding or anything else.

I have been looking at different molding profiles from a lot of different companies trying to find something different that would go with my overall design theme. After looking at hundreds of different profiles I ended up finding a set of moldings I really liked from a company called Bosley moldings that I think will work well. I ordered a sample of their solid African Mahogany and it has the same overall tone of the veneer I purchased so I requested a quotation, which was in line with my finish carpentry budget. I haven't decided my base molding height, but it will either be 5" or 7" high.

I am also in discussions to alter the size (height) of the panel molding. If I have a 2" Quest Acoustic Panel recessed within my 3/4" veneered finish carpentry, that leaves 1.25" left on the side of the panel to cover with the panel molding. Well, the molding is only 3/8" at its highest point so I want to do something to either build up this molding or use a combination of moldings to achieve the required 1.25" of height. I am also considering the purchase of beveled fabric track to lessen the height of the side panel that needs covered. In this scenario the bevel height is just over 1/2" so I would only need to make up 3/8" after using the existing 3/8" molding. I have some work yet to figure everything out on the finish carpentry before placing my order.

Here are the molding profiles I am looking at:

Chair rail:


Case molding:


Base molding:


Panel Molding:


Crown Molding:
post #218 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan View Post

I agree that 32"+ looks odd in a house with standard ceiling heights. I think you are right when you are talking about 24" or so.
Here is a good article to take a look at. http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/12/03/misused-confused-chair-rail/
I think a lot of it is going to come down to whether chair rail is decorative or functional. In a theater, I am not sure what would look best. I doubt you would ever want chair rail height near the back height of a theater seat unless you had 16' ceilings, but I am not sure. Would be a good thing to lay out in a program like Sketchup and see what looks best to you.
Shan

Hey Guys,

This usually isn't an issue for shorter height rooms, but just make sure that you have your material picked out for above the chair rail. I know GOM material is 66" wide and if you are building fabric frames, you have to allow enough room to wrap it around the frame.

I'd hate for someone to get down the path and find this out the hard way and have to add a seam they didn't plan for. Certain material you can only run one way too.
post #219 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

What did you settle on for a chair rail height? IIRC you mentioned that you were planning to lower yours a bit to accommodate your treatments. I'm thinking something like 24" - 25" for my theater. I know that 32" - 36" is most common, but I've been reading up on it a bit, and that's apparently not ideal. Something like 20% - 25% of your wall height is supposed to be more pleasing to the eye. Of course, that's the answer I WANT, but might not be the right answer rolleyes.gif

This is not set in stone yet, but currently I have the chair rail height right around 29". Typically speaking, the reason for going with a lower chair rail height is to get acoustic treatments at the point of first reflection, especially for those in the front row whose ears are probably 36 inches off the ground. I might actually put it a bit lower, but having the 29" height allows me to keep the chair rail at the same level the whole way around the room, even in the area above the riser. If I started my chair rail at 24" OC and used a 4" wide chair rail, by the time I factored in the 11.75" riser base I would only have about 10" left under the chair rail. Factor in the height of my base molding and there wouldn't be much left in terms of room for panel molding or anything else.

I have been looking at different molding profiles from a lot of different companies trying to find something different that would go with my overall design theme. After looking at hundreds of different profiles I ended up finding a set of moldings I really liked from a company called Bosley moldings that I think will work well. I ordered a sample of their solid African Mahogany and it has the same overall tone of the veneer I purchased so I requested a quotation, which was in line with my finish carpentry budget. I haven't decided my base molding height, but it will either be 5" or 7" high.

I am also in discussions to alter the size (height) of the panel molding. If I have a 2" Quest Acoustic Panel recessed within my 3/4" veneered finish carpentry, that leaves 1.25" left on the side of the panel to cover with the panel molding. Well, the molding is only 3/8" at its highest point so I want to do something to either build up this molding or use a combination of moldings to achieve the required 1.25" of height. I am also considering the purchase of beveled fabric track to lessen the height of the side panel that needs covered. In this scenario the bevel height is just over 1/2" so I would only need to make up 3/8" after using the existing 3/8" molding. I have some work yet to figure everything out on the finish carpentry before placing my order.

Here are the molding profiles I am looking at:

Chair rail:


Case molding:


Base molding:


Panel Molding:


Crown Molding:

Man those moldings are sharp and angular, i would have expected more rounded and flowing lines for art deco design....

They all look nice though.
post #220 of 897
That first molding looks very art deco to me. I like the others as well. I think you are on the right track.
post #221 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Man those moldings are sharp and angular, i would have expected more rounded and flowing lines for art deco design....
They all look nice though.

Yeah, I hear ya. My top carpet pick has plenty of curls to it and the design of the metalwork for the column will also have curves. I figured not everything can be curved and not everything can be angular. Perhaps these are a good compromise. I am open to suggestions if you have any!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman View Post

That first molding looks very art deco to me. I like the others as well. I think you are on the right track.

I have to tell you that finding a coordinating set of molding profiles in an Art Deco or interesting style has been really tough. Most of the really cool moldings are being made in PVC or other paintable synthetic materials. To make matters worse for my situation, the overwhelming majority of the available moldings are very, very traditional in style. Several companies I came across make some very nice period-correct moldings but charge anywhere from $11 to $24 per linear foot. Uhh....no thank you with that kind of pricing. They were nice, but way out of budget. These were the only moldings I have found so far that seemed close to some period moldings I have seen which still fitting in my budget, especially in the pricier African Mahogany species.

Again, I am completely open to any suggestions, of course, if someone happens to find any moldings that may work. This is all just a work in progress at this point.
post #222 of 897
Our cabinet shop painted white MDF crown to match the glazed cherry cabinets in out kitchen, and it is amazing how close it is. I'd be really surprised if anyone would be able to tell they are not the same wood as the cabinets. If you think it might be of interest, I can dig up some pics for you.


Oh yeah, the point. If there's a PVC profile you really like, you might come out cheaper having a shop paint it to match for you. Not sure about the cost, though.
post #223 of 897
I have no doubt you will find something that works. By thinking through all of the design elements ahead of time, as you're doing, you'll end up with a nice cohesive project when it's all done. I have seen some examples of art deco design that incorporate both curved and angular design features, but the stronger ones usually lean one way or the other. I'm excited to see what you come up with.
post #224 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Our cabinet shop painted white MDF crown to match the glazed cherry cabinets in out kitchen, and it is amazing how close it is. I'd be really surprised if anyone would be able to tell they are not the same wood as the cabinets. If you think it might be of interest, I can dig up some pics for you.
Oh yeah, the point. If there's a PVC profile you really like, you might come out cheaper having a shop paint it to match for you. Not sure about the cost, though.

Sure, I'd like to see it if it is not too much trouble for you to post. I have seen painted moldings before and you are right - they look incredibly real.

As for the moldings above, the most expensive is the case molding $7.52 per lf. Depending on height, the base is around $5.80 per lf. The crown and chair are both around $5 per linear foot and the panel molding is about $1.56 per lf. Given that I only need about 50 linear feet for most of the profiles and about 200 lf for the panel molding, the total damage shouldn't be too bad for all the solid stock. Unfortunately they do not stock these profiles in any species whatsoever, so the first time I would see them is when I receive my delivery.

If you happen to see any moldings - even synthetic moldings - that you think will work, please let me know as I'm still not fully decided on this collection (although I do like it).
post #225 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Yeah, I hear ya. My top carpet pick has plenty of curls to it and the design of the metalwork for the column will also have curves. I figured not everything can be curved and not everything can be angular. Perhaps these are a good compromise. I am open to suggestions if you have any!
I have to tell you that finding a coordinating set of molding profiles in an Art Deco or interesting style has been really tough. Most of the really cool moldings are being made in PVC or other paintable synthetic materials. To make matters worse for my situation, the overwhelming majority of the available moldings are very, very traditional in style. Several companies I came across make some very nice period-correct moldings but charge anywhere from $11 to $24 per linear foot. Uhh....no thank you with that kind of pricing. They were nice, but way out of budget. These were the only moldings I have found so far that seemed close to some period moldings I have seen which still fitting in my budget, especially in the pricier African Mahogany species.
Again, I am completely open to any suggestions, of course, if someone happens to find any moldings that may work. This is all just a work in progress at this point.

Have you considered making your own? You could make these on a routing table or shaper. Just about any good woodshop will have all the tools you need to do it: joiner, planer, tablesaw, shaper. You can get oodles of different profiles... here's an example.
post #226 of 897
Oh man! Check this out!




That would be totally easy to replicate. A lot better than the $9/foot they want for it.

Less easy to replicate but OMG:
post #227 of 897
If you've got the time, Mr. danforth may have the right idea!

I may have misunderstood your previous post. I took it to mean that you found some PVC moldings that you liked, but couldn't use b/c they are not wood. At any rate, here is a pic of the crown I mentioned. You can see a bit of the original white crown above and behind the cabinets, but the crown at the top of those cabinets is the same stuff. I have no idea how they did this, but it even has "grain" in it.

post #228 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

If you've got the time, Mr. danforth may have the right idea!
I may have misunderstood your previous post. I took it to mean that you found some PVC moldings that you liked, but couldn't use b/c they are not wood. At any rate, here is a pic of the crown I mentioned. You can see a bit of the original white crown above and behind the cabinets, but the crown at the top of those cabinets is the same stuff. I have no idea how they did this, but it even has "grain" in it.

That is some very good finish work. This is where the "Pros" really separate themselves the most is in final finishing.
post #229 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanforth View Post


This molding screams Art Deco to me. It looks fantastic.
post #230 of 897
Thread Starter 
Jon - You must have ESPN (biggrin.gif) because those are the exact moldings I liked when I found them 4 or 5 months ago. In fact I made a recommendation to AirBenji for his Esquire theater with the Memphis molding he eventually purchased and installed in his theater that came from this same company.

The problem I ended up having is that I couldn't find a suitable Case, Chair, Base and Panel moldings that were in the same vein / style as either of these two crown molding styles. I know they can be painted to simulate my finished wood, but I am not aware how much that would cost on top of the high-cost of the molding itself.

Regarding the New York style Art Deco molding shown here....



and here....



I really like this style and see a variation of it being used for the verticals of my perimeter soffit similar to that found in the Bacon Race Theater here...

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/bigmouthindc/Ds%20Theater/DSCF5336.jpg

and here....

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/bigmouthindc/Ds%20Theater/DSCF5437.jpg

...and the Merrimont Trace theater which has design elements take from the Bacon Race theater:

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af252/rantonuccio/IMG_4770.jpg

. . . only instead of using MDF with a router and roundover bit I would use flat veneered stock and a piece of panel molding on the leading edge to create a slightly more detailed cascade.

I haven't fully decided yet, but I am thinking that I will have the "cove" lighting mounted on the ceiling and pointed directly toward the vertical of the soffit to have the glow of the lighting cascade downward like this:


instead of the more traditional route of hiding the strip lighting behind crown molding and pointing the light upwards toward the ceiling like this as shown in StockMonkey's Desert Sunset Theater thread:

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m588/stockmonkey2000/BZ1Q2160.jpg

If any molding is easy to swap out, it would be the crown. Unfortunately Bosley molding does not have a similar sleek crown profile. But ultimately I can't focus on just one molding or another - I have to find a family of five different moldings (Base, Crown, Chair, Case and Panel) that have similar styles and characteristics to make a cohesive package. Even the InivitingHome.com website only has one or two specific moldings, but not a whole matching family of moldings between the different types....that's the tricky part IMHO.

I am traveling now, but on my desktop I have several other molding profiles from a few other companies that may work. I'll post them here in this thread when I am able.

Thanks for all the input and suggestions guys!
Edited by TMcG - 1/8/13 at 12:53pm
post #231 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Jon - You must have ESPN (biggrin.gif) because those are the exact moldings I liked when I found them 4 or 5 months ago. In fact I made a recommendation to AirBenji for his Esquire theater with the Memphis molding he eventually purchased and installed in his theater.

Yes - thanks, that was an excellent recommendation! The Memphis crown is perfect in my theater and I get compliments on it regularly. I am probably going to use more molding from that company when I attack a master bedroom remodel this year.

Looks like you have some really great ideas and the beginnings of an epic theater here TMcG. Keep up the good work!
post #232 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

That is some very good finish work. This is where the "Pros" really separate themselves the most is in final finishing.

Thanks, we're very pleased with how everything turned out. I have to admit, though, our builder brought a lot people over to look at that painted crown molding smile.gif It's even more impressive in person where you can see the grain in it clearly.

TMcG, that's a cool lighting effect in that image. Is the ceiling in that pic below the lights? It looks like the star ceiling is dropped down a bit, and the lights are hidden underneath. Or am I looking at it wrong?
post #233 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Thanks, we're very pleased with how everything turned out. I have to admit, though, our builder brought a lot people over to look at that painted crown molding smile.gif It's even more impressive in person where you can see the grain in it clearly.
TMcG, that's a cool lighting effect in that image. Is the ceiling in that pic below the lights? It looks like the star ceiling is dropped down a bit, and the lights are hidden underneath. Or am I looking at it wrong?

You are correct, the fiber optic star ceiling is several inches lower than the soundproof shell to allow space for the cove lighting immediately above the star ceiling panels. I used to have another close-up picture that shows the lighting recessed about 4 inches from the edge of the star panel and pointing directly at the vertical edge of the soffit. Like I said, I am not decided on this approach but I think either this way or the more "traditional" route of uplighting from behind crown molding in a cove eminating from the soffit will look nice. Opinions are welcome, of course!

I cannot believe the incredible job your painting guys did on that molding. Absolutely perfect tonal match with all the "natural" variations and graining you would expect with real wood trim. Do you know if this was expensive to have done or was the cost wound into the cost of your cabinetry / trim package. The only reason why I ask is if I decide to go with the "Miami" style of crown molding, it is also available in a flexible format from that molding company and I could incorporate a curved design. Of course I would need it painted if I went that direction and I have no clue if that's a $5 per lf proposition or a $20 per lf proposition.

Thanks for your input JPA!
post #234 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBenji View Post

Yes - thanks, that was an excellent recommendation! The Memphis crown is perfect in my theater and I get compliments on it regularly. I am probably going to use more molding from that company when I attack a master bedroom remodel this year.
Looks like you have some really great ideas and the beginnings of an epic theater here TMcG. Keep up the good work!

Thanks Benji! I'm glad to hear you really like that molding option. The way you painted it really works with your theater. I wish I was as creative as you painting it as you did.

I'm glad to have you following along. It was actually in your thread I first heard of Procella speakers and started doing the research which led me to actually make the purchase of a full system, minus subs. I know you gave me a standing invite if I found myself in upstate NY ....same is true if you find yourself in Charlotte, NC!
post #235 of 897
It was included in the costs of our cabinets. They didn't even ask about different ways to address the crown in the kitchen. They just took care of it. I was here when they picked up the stick of crown to take back to their shop. I'll see if I can find out what they would charge to do moldings in my theater. It's a local cabinet shop that I've bought wood from before, so they seem to be willing to entertain little odd DIY jobs.
post #236 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Thanks Benji! I'm glad to hear you really like that molding option. The way you painted it really works with your theater. I wish I was as creative as you painting it as you did.
I'm glad to have you following along. It was actually in your thread I first heard of Procella speakers and started doing the research which led me to actually make the purchase of a full system, minus subs. I know you gave me a standing invite if I found myself in upstate NY ....same is true if you find yourself in Charlotte, NC!

Thanks! smile.gif I am following along intently but quietly. Not sure I could add too much to your already very well thought out build! Keep up the good work and ideas!
post #237 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBenji View Post

I am following along intently but quietly.

Name change . . . AirBenji to StealthBenji biggrin.gif
post #238 of 897
Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and be proven one. That is why I too follow many build threads, but post in few of them unless it is to provide encouragement, or to actually provide something of merit to the discussion/issue at hand.

I do like the lighting concept that you show in the picture. A different and unique look but to me it does appear rather bright, unless it is just turned up to show the affect.

Regards,

RTROSE
post #239 of 897
Wow that purple lit theater is very unique! I really like how the light "cascades" down as you said.
post #240 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and be proven one.

Well, I guess I have 847 posts of proof for my own foolish ramblings! biggrin.gif


A BIT OF AN UPDATE:
  • First and foremost I found out that I will NOT need surgery to repair my foot injury, just physical therapy 3 times per week for 6 weeks and some rest. Not total rest, but not overdoing it either. So I might start trying to tackle a bit in the basement and theater, probably the electrical or something else relatively low-impact that doesn't involve carrying 5/8" sheets of drywall.
  • My piece of 1/4" clear glass that I need as a backer to all these 8"x8" alabaster samples is supposed to be ready for pickup today. The alabaster panels I intend to use in the columns will be 16" wide by 72" tall (approximately). I have some melamine and some words of wisdom from the lighting designers at Color Kinetics in order to successfully backlight this alabaster. I can't wait to see the full-scale mock-up in action. I'll be sure to take pictures throughout the mock-up process. If I get really ambitious I will be getting a bit "artsy" and cutting out the decorative metal pattern out of cardboard or 1/8" hardboard to see how the design looks in front of the backlit alabaster panels. I have several different designs I would like to try before committing to the metal fabrication.
  • I know I have not put together a full equipment list yet, which I will do in a subsequent post. Some of the equipment decisions have been made and purchased, but the large majority is still subject to debate. One thing is for sure....I will NOT be buying any equipment that ages quickly from a product life-cycle standpoint ( like the projector, automation system, preamp / processor, streaming client, DSP, etc.) until I absolutely need it and am practically waiting outside for the delivery in terms of need. The speakers, anamorphic lens, screen frame, Seymour screen material, speaker wire, power protection system and amplifiers all have been purchased and are waiting in the wings for their installation, but these items don't really change or lose their value with time. It's actually kind-of nice knowing that these major components are bought and paid-for with a relatively minor amount of head-end electronics left to buy.
  • Quite unbelievably, I found a guy on Craigslist that was selling a completely brand new set of FOUR Buttkicker LFE transducers, the amp, the connection kit - absolutely everything including T-shirts and other Buttkicker swag for $450. Considering just the transducers go for $275 each, I jumped on the deal. I had planned to wire for Buttkickers for all the theater seats and buy the theater seats without the Buttkickers (but have the framing and the "spot" for them) to save money up front and spread the cost of the upgrade over time. But at that price for the total package I jumped immediately on the deal so at least my primary row of seating (on the riser) will be fully functional from Day 1. The Buttkicker LFE device is TONS more powerful than the little $100 add-on accessories sold and factory-installed by so many seating companies....it should make a big difference in the end result.
  • If I have the time, I may build the mockups of my perimeter soffit / ceiling cove lighting to illustrate and see the difference between the two lighting approaches. I'm be looking for opinion and feedback on this as well.

Well, that's all for now in my limited mobility condition. I'll get the updates out when I can.
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