or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Home Entertainment & Theater Builder › Dedicated Theater Design & Construction › The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 20

post #571 of 897
eek.gif that kind of sucks glad my count rules change next year guess I got in under the wire no pun intended.
post #572 of 897
Just to add insult to injury, what's the story on CAFCI compared to AFCI breakers? There appears to be about a $7 difference between the two. I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the more expensive version is required smile.gif

EDIT: Looks like CAFCI is required by NEC 2008.......
post #573 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

If it makes you feel any better, I got off the phone with my inspector about an hour ago and he had the same news for me. I told him I was worried about nuisance tripping because of the high transient current spikes associated with the amps and he recommended a surge suppressor. frown.gif Misery loves company!

I don't think a surge suppressor would do the trick since it cannot store any energy for instant demand. I believe only a voltage stabilizer would prevent nuisance tripping. Your thoughts?

When I was looking at Home Depot's website there was a "CAFCI" breaker for just a bit more. I Googled to see if I could locate the difference between the two types of breakers and this is what I found on Square D's website:
Quote:
Square D® combination arc-fault circuit interrupters (AFCIs) are the first commercially available products designed to comply with the requirements of the National Electrical Code® (NEC®) for combination AFCI protection. Combination AFCI circuit breakers have the ability to sense and respond to a broader range of arcing incidents than standard AFCI circuit breakers, providing enhanced protection against electrical fires for homes and families.

So I called my inspector for further clarification as to what breaker I should be buying and got his voice mail. When I hear back, I'll post here. The saga continues....
post #574 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I don't think a surge suppressor would do the trick since it cannot store any energy for instant demand. I believe only a voltage stabilizer would prevent nuisance tripping. Your thoughts?

.......

This is from the Eaton website regarding the use of AFCI/CAFCI. It's in a Q/A format, hence the question on the first line followed by an answer.
Quote:
When I run my vacuum sweeper / paper shredder / treadmill / etc. it trips my AFCI.
Eaton’s AFCI has been designed to work with devices with motors that are within the FCC standard for noise. Even though these devices have been manufactured to the FCC’s standards, after frequent use wear within the motor can create noise which trips the AFCI. To mitigate the noise generated by these devices, you may use a surge plug or surge strip.

I'm a bit surprised as well. But like you've mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm not sure I can pick up a 20 A surge suppressor from Wal-Mart. On top of that, I've had a fire marshal tell me that the vast majority of unintentional house fires they see are caused by cheap power strips.......
post #575 of 897
CAFCI is required. Combination Arc Fault. The first type (parallel arc only, or an arc from black to white) was only legal when the requirement was first implemented in 2005. Combination will sense series faults, which would be one conductor arcing (ie you cut the black wire and it is arcing through the cut, black-to-black).

Tim
post #576 of 897
Lunacy! Good thing all of your panels were pre-wired before the house was built and you are grandfathered by the early 2011 codes! wink.gif Can you move the Theater panel away so it is not seen? I didn't say that! But this is stupid. Last time I checked, we only had to have the bedrooms covered. And we had to change all of our marital aids to battery operated. My new kitchen which has 20 odd breakers in a dedicated panel only has regular breakers with GFCI plugs in appropriate places and was inspected 6 months ago. I even have those pop-up receptacles fed from 20A GFCI recepticals in my island close to a sink. I was able to find a CSA/UL rating for them on line after much searching.

$3.48! Our regular breakers are $8- 12, depending on the brand! Man we get screwed up here! mad.gif

AFCI receptacles do exist. http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=55015&minisite=10251 And only $36 - $38 a piece.

Do not call the rack space, a closet. There are many room names that have official designations...like "Office", which denotes a place of business and requires zoning permission. It is a den. A previous owner of my pile of bricks called a converted attic, "4th Floor" on the drawings. This brought into requirement a whole other section of our building code and a commercial type fire alarm system with pull stations and automatic door closures on fire rated doors. I've since renamed it "Loft" and got rid of the beautiful red pull stations and fire bells. Here, you can't have an electrical panel in a "closet"!

My theater space was supposed to be labeled "Family Room". At some point it got printed as "Home Theater" and I missed it before going to permit application. The property tax man reads this as "more".
post #577 of 897
Thread Starter 
Thanks Jim. Technically, in my area it doesn't matter if I call it a closet, equipment room or otherwise as all circuits get CAFCI breakers and the good 'ol tax man only cares if the square footage falls within one of three different categories of "finished". C grade is unfinished; B grade means you may have thrown a chunk of carpet on the floor, put up a couple of walls, tapped into the HVAC system, etc. and A grade is what the tax office terms "livable space". Obviously, since its my tax money at stake, they consider almost everything as A grade. mad.gif
post #578 of 897
I was very careful to refer to my space as an equipment room, and I repeatedly pointed out that the circuits were dedicated and the room would not see much traffic (i.e. nothing like a closet). I think the inspector realized what I was getting at and finally said that the ONLY rooms not requiring an CAFCI are the kitchen and laundry, and that would be changing soon with the adoption of the 2011 code. He made it clear that they were taking "or similar" to mean any room in the dwelling.
post #579 of 897
big brother is here and they want you to feel safe in your home buy the repeated trips to the garage to reset the da*n breakers! Throw out all your old crap with motors and by new!
post #580 of 897
Thread Starter 
I decided I'm going to hold on to enough of my existing breakers to handle all the circuits in my AV system. At the first sign of one of these CAFCIs tripping the AV gear, they're coming right out, put to the side and only reinstalled if I go to sell the home. I'll take the "extreme risk" of not being ARC fault protected....seems to have been OK for the first 40 years of my life.... rolleyes.gif

As a side note / point of clarification - All my breakers must be CAFCI except for the kitchenette (bar) and the bathroom which require GFCI receptacles on old-school breakers. Even though I'll have only 6 linear feet of countertop in the kitchenette, I have to run two separate dedicated 20 amp circuits and physically put them at opposite ends of the countertop. The bathroom gets a dedicated 20A circuit and that's it. I could elect to put in the fancy GFCI breakers, but that would mean a trip to the electrical panel for the reset instead of locally at the receptacle. No other breakers than those attached to GFCI receptacles are allowed to be non-CAFCI in my area.

I'm glad this came up now before I wired in the panel, but a bit miffed at the extra $1000 spend.
post #581 of 897
Thread Starter 
If anyone following this thread has any leftover Serenity Mat from their own project and would like to sell it on, please send me a PM. I only need approximately 17 linear feet and the rolls are only sold in 100 foot lengths. THANK YOU!!
post #582 of 897
Check your code about the kitchenette. We can run a second 20A outlet off the 20A GFCI if it is on the opposite side of the sink to the first. ie if the sink is in the middle the two outlets on either side of the sink can be on the same 20A circuit ("old school" 20A breaker). The bathroom would be on an old style breaker with a GFCI outlet and only 15A. I like to leave the main room lights on the line through so that you aren't left in the dark if you trip the GFCI. Yes, the shower light should be covered by the GFCI.

So these CAFCI's detect shorts and cut wires, but deteriorate with age... If the wiring is done properly and at an appropriate height around a room, it shouldn't get hit by anything like a picture hanging nail or trim nail. Any shorts should be from construction (I reiterate the thing about proper wiring). So where are these magical shorts coming from that we need on going protection from? After construction is finished only the act of some moron going at a wall with a saw that they shouldn't have possession of in the first place is going to damage a wire. Why is it not an option to test each circuit after construction to determine if there is a damaged wire and deal with that. It sounds like big business trying to improve their bottom line! Does Cheney have a electrical outlet manufacturing company?

Canada is going through a similar situation with Water Tank temperature settings. The code is flagellating on a max temp of 55C. Legionella "starts" to die at 54C. It dies almost immediately at 65C. Unfortunately, several "Moms" have held their babies under the scolding water so that they can sue Welfare because their baby was hurt in their free public housing. I know this isn't "politically correct" to mention the facts, but it came from a city building inspector. Again, we've lived for years with HOT water coming out of the H tap! How will our children survive the future?
post #583 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by just jim View Post

So these CAFCI's detect shorts and cut wires, but deteriorate with age... If the wiring is done properly and at an appropriate height around a room, it shouldn't get hit by anything like a picture hanging nail or trim nail. Any shorts should be from construction (I reiterate the thing about proper wiring). So where are these magical shorts coming from that we need on going protection from? After construction is finished only the act of some moron going at a wall with a saw that they shouldn't have possession of in the first place is going to damage a wire.

There is no height requirement for concealed wiring. However, the concern is more likely flexible cord connected devices.

I'm not disagreeing with what you said, just explaining.
post #584 of 897
Interestingly, we saw arc flash become a hot topic in industry several years ago, but it had nothing to do with protecting equipment. In an industrial environment we're concerned with people getting burned from arcing/explosions and determining the correct level of fire proof clothing required for a particular area. At 480 V, 4 kV, etc., a short can vaporize the copper bus and burn or kill someone.

I assumed that the residential changes were spurred by the changes in industry, but I may have it backwards.
post #585 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by just jim View Post

Check your code about the kitchenette. We can run a second 20A outlet off the 20A GFCI if it is on the opposite side of the sink to the first. ie if the sink is in the middle the two outlets on either side of the sink can be on the same 20A circuit ("old school" 20A breaker). The bathroom would be on an old style breaker with a GFCI outlet and only 15A. I like to leave the main room lights on the line through so that you aren't left in the dark if you trip the GFCI. Yes, the shower light should be covered by the GFCI.

I did check with my inspector and he was the one determining that my walk-up bar would be treated like a kitchenette (since I'll have a single-drawer dishwasher) and therefore needed two separate dedicated 20A circuits, despite the limited size of the countertop. I may hang a second receptacle off either one of the circuits FWIW.


UPDATE:
As a follow-up to my posts from last week on the OSB swap I have been frustratingly delayed. Twice I've called ahead to make sure their rental truck was available and twice I've arrived only to find it rented. I'm probably just going to rent a landscape trailer at U-haul for $15 and just get the swap done and over with tonight.

The other big piece of news is that my wife is leaving me. No, no, no....not like that! But she is headed up North very early tomorrow morning with our son and dogs in-tow for three weeks with the Grandparents. I am taking tomorrow off, so I'll have four solid days of nothing to do but work in the basement and on the theater with zero restrictions on making lots of construction noise!!! And this goes for every night after work as well, which is great. I plan to make big progress and am excited to get started. I'll miss everyone, but it will be a real relief to have everyone out of the house for a bit so I don't have to tip toe around during my limited time off.
Edited by TMcG - 8/29/13 at 6:59am
post #586 of 897
Go stock up frozen pizza and turn off the Internet until they're back. Take lots of pictures and get this done!
post #587 of 897
^^^ This!
post #588 of 897
Yee-haw!! A work-fest ensues... smile.gif
post #589 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Go stock up frozen pizza and turn off the Internet until they're back. Take lots of pictures and get this done!

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

^^^ This!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowger View Post

Yee-haw!! A work-fest ensues... smile.gif


TMcG signing off.....
post #590 of 897
Good luck biggrin.gif. I'm expecting pictures and progress!
post #591 of 897
Well, since TMcG isn't around to monitor his thread now, anyone have any funny pictures they feel a need to post? rolleyes.gif
post #592 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post




The other big piece of news is that my wife is leaving me. No, no, no....not like that! But she is headed up North very early tomorrow morning with our son and dogs in-tow for three weeks with the Grandparents. I am taking tomorrow off, so I'll have four solid days of nothing to do but work in the basement and on the theater with zero restrictions on making lots of construction noise!!! And this goes for every night after work as well, which is great. I plan to make big progress and am excited to get started. I'll miss everyone, but it will be a real relief to have everyone out of the house for a bit so I don't have to tip toe around during my limited time off.

 

Even at my glacially slow pace of progress I think I'd have noticeable changes after 4 straight days of interruption free time!  I might also be able to solve the problem of world peace in the time left over after I finished the theater!  

 

Good luck!

post #593 of 897
Good to see that you're finally getting to work with the rest of us! smile.gif
post #594 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

There is no height requirement for concealed wiring. However, the concern is more likely flexible cord connected devices.

I'm not disagreeing with what you said, just explaining.

I hear you. smile.gif

I'm sure you use common sense and run outlet wires above the height of the baseboard and other circuits above possible wainscoting and below picture hanging heights and in the middle of the stud depth or more than 2" above the bottom of a joint and don't install DW with looong screws. Just to minimize the potential of hitting a wire with a screw or nail.

So this is mainly for protection against the appliance cord that you can see?!? Again, common sense should tell you when a cord needs to be replaced. Remember that whole thing about survival of the fittest? We're just diluting the gene pool. Sometimes it's good to thin out the herd. biggrin.gif

I know electrical fires occur, but how bad does the situation have to be? We had A LOT of rain in June. A client called me that they had water pouring out of their electrical panel and flooding their basement! I traced the problem to a conduit somebody had run out to a barn. The electrician missed gluing a joint which came apart, coincidentally under a rain water lead from the barn roof. Many gallons of water went through the live panel with nothing tripping. And nobody died. wink.gif


Tim, you didn't mention the dishwasher as the second circuit. smile.gif Does it have to be 20A and on a GFCI? Here, it is 15A and either 110V or 220V on a regular breaker. The deal with the counter GFCI plug is that the second plug can't be "adjacent" to the first, but can be on the opposite side of the sink. Just a clarification. smile.gif

I admire your dedication and stamina. I come home after a days work, look at the lift of wood in my driveway waiting to be milled and run inside to converse on AVS!
post #595 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Interestingly, we saw arc flash become a hot topic in industry several years ago, but it had nothing to do with protecting equipment. In an industrial environment we're concerned with people getting burned from arcing/explosions and determining the correct level of fire proof clothing required for a particular area. At 480 V, 4 kV, etc., a short can vaporize the copper bus and burn or kill someone.

I assumed that the residential changes were spurred by the changes in industry, but I may have it backwards.



Funny you should mention that. The 2014 edition of the Residential Code will require that the builder provide two arc flash protection devices per bedroom:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Presumably it is to protect against arc that may occur while inserting a plug from a cord-connected device into a receptacle outlet.
post #596 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

Funny you should mention that. The 2014 edition of the Residential Code will require that the builder provide two arc flash protection devices per bedroom:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Presumably it is to protect against arc that may occur while inserting a plug from a cord-connected device into a receptacle outlet.



Is this so the lights can be on a separate breaker so that you aren't in the dark when the outlet circuit trips?

I'm going back to candles and lanterns! Or should it be lime lights?
post #597 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

Funny you should mention that. The 2014 edition of the Residential Code will require that the builder provide two arc flash protection devices per bedroom:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Presumably it is to protect against arc that may occur while inserting a plug from a cord-connected device into a receptacle outlet.

Haha! I see you know the routine! smile.gif
post #598 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

If anyone following this thread has any leftover Serenity Mat from their own project and would like to sell it on, please send me a PM. I only need approximately 17 linear feet and the rolls are only sold in 100 foot lengths. THANK YOU!!

I have a 25 ft long by 40" wide 3/8 inch Serenity Mat scrap if you can call it that! rolleyes.gif

Shaking head..........probably cost almost as much to ship than to buy it direct.
post #599 of 897
If my calculations are correct (and they seldom are), TMcG was back to his normal work schedule today - though still without a house filled with family. Does that mean we get an update?
Edited by HopefulFred - 9/3/13 at 6:57pm
post #600 of 897
Thread Starter 
It will have to be a pic-free update for the time being, but the 4-day work week was shortened to 3 as several high-priority meetings were added to my Friday work schedule and I ended up working until late that afternoon. mad.gif

The short update:
  • Basement electrical well underway
  • Family room coffered ceiling lighting now active and final coat of poly on after sanding
  • Theater wall brackets started
  • Bunch of little tasks knocked out

The longer explanation for those that live for details (like me):
I see I didn't mention it in my earlier post, but the lighting in the coffered ceiling was not active because new power needed to be run right through the theater ceiling....a ceiling in which I was installing drywall at the time so I just used the lights to fill the holes. So I pulled out and wired all 12 lights that were in the coffers, disassembled the ceiling fan electrical to run the other lighting zone "hot" down to the fireplace gimbal lights, changed out the dimmers to Lutron Maestros and a Lutron 2-zone Grafik Eye with scene selector accessory control. I also cut in the ceiling surround sound speakers, packed the cavities with insulation, and spray-painted the speakers my matching ceiling color. There were also a bunch of fine details to tidy up such as some drywall touch-ups and patches. While the lighting was out of the holes and the baby was out of the house I figured that this was a great time to finally get the second coat of satin polyurethane on the ceiling, so I hand-sanded 100% of the woodwork, taking my time to get in all the nooks and crannies. I then wiped it down and got the second coat of poly up and drying. I'll let it cure for a week or so before reinstalling the lighting fixtures. All of this work alone took a day and a half.

The other part of my time was split between getting all of the basement electrical installed, including all of the circuits I'll need for the theater's power (including projector) and the theater's wall isolation brackets. For the basement, I started with the most tedious circuits first and made quite a bit of headway. Surprisingly so, actually. I think I only have *about* 2 days of electrical wiring left before that will be done. I have to say there is nothing quite like flicking on switches for lights and having receptacles everywhere you turn after living off work lights and extension cords for so long!!!

Like the basement electrical, I started with the most tedious area first.....the right wall. Tedious was actually an understatement. I knew going into it that the right wall would be the toughest because of where I framed up my wall, which was directly underneath the parallel joist above. If you look at the steel right-angle bracket it has a few inches of offset it needs to penetrate the top plate on one side and penetrate the joist above on the other. With the wall being directly under the joist I had to improvise an do a little bit of surgery on the top plate, extending it with 2x8 dimensional lumber in parts to get the needed clearance. I could have moved the wall inward when building it, but I didn't want to give up the additional theater room width. I got most of the right wall complete, but the rest should move along much more quickly - I'll give that part of the project another full day before I think I'll be done simply because I have some other slight re-framing I need to take care of around the HVAC line sets.

I also knocked out a number of the smaller projects on my honey-do list as fillers since it is really not possible to sand a coffered ceiling above your head for 10 hours straight, if you know what I mean. rolleyes.gif

I'll get some pics by next weekend. I'm trying to work extra-long hours between yesterday, today and tomorrow so I have the chance of taking this Friday off since I missed my vaca day last Friday. We'll see how that goes.
Edited by TMcG - 9/5/13 at 2:01pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Home Entertainment & Theater Builder › Dedicated Theater Design & Construction › The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread