The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 3

Fair warning . . . lengthy post . . . blame it on a 3 hour flight!

Now, on to the pictures of the room itself….

Here is a view from just outside the theater. I will be purchasing and installing a backlit movie poster lightbox and a custom Stonewater Cinema marquee from Hollywood Marquees. Both of these units are typically surface-mounted and protrude about 4 inches. But since they are built-to-order, they are honoring my request for a small amount of customization with regards to the electrical connections so I may recess this unit into the wall. Instead of being hardwired with a pull-chain to turn the light on/off, I am requesting that the unit be hard-wired only at a very specific wire entry point and then I will turn the power on/off for each unit via a standard light switch. I may even tie each of these into a Grafik Eye zone. When recessed, the frame of the marquee will sit on the surface of the wall, making it looked like a framed and backlit piece of artwork. The movie poster unit will stick out from the wall about ¾” since the front is hinged and must maintain proper swing clearances to change the poster. The movie poster unit also comes with interchangeable placards that can be placed either above or below the movie poster that can say “NOW SHOWING”, “COMING SOON” or any other phrase I choose. And one nice thing about the marquee is that they include a fairly generous pack of individual letters that can be slipped in and out of the marquee for up to two lines of text to feature the movie title, rating, etc. - just like a real movie theater. The letters go in the white area pictured below:





I plan on going the DIY route with two other movie poster display boxes using the Cuzed / Moggie / Air Benji method found in this forum and at these links:
DIY Lightbox thread started by Cuzed: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1392444/another-diy-poster-marquee-light-box

Moggie's Old Vic Theater Thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1117148/saga-of-the-old-vic/1050#post_21989987

Air Benji's Esquire Theater Thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1289590/the-esquire-theater-construction-begins/1650#post_22610398

For soundproofing, I decided to go all-out and use full double-studded walls with a 1” air gap. You can see on the LEFT wall that I already have 1/2" OSB, Green Glue and 1/2" drywall installed. This is because I had originally chosen to maximize the width of my theater. When I made the decision to add the second wall, I kept hearing John’s (from the Soundproofing Company) voice in my ear telling me to uninstall this sheet material because of the “triple leaf effect”. As real as this phenomenon is, I have consciously decided to not rip it all out and just roll with things the way you see them here. Between acoustic treatments, two layers of 5/8” drywall attached to a separate and decoupled wall filled with R13….then a 1” air gap, then ½” drywall / Green Glue / ½”OSB covering a second wall filled with R13….I think I should be OK. Ideal – no, but livable – yes. Perhaps the “boom” of certain low frequencies may get emphasized, but I just couldn’t see ripping everything out. I’ll be sure to report my findings once things are up and running.


I had a 4" plumbing drain line coming from the second floor that made an immediate 90 degree turn the moment the radius had cleared the underside of my joists. In order to install a soundproof shell, I had to lower and reconfigure this pipe. I calculated that with the ceiling hangers, the 7/8” hat track and two layers of 5/8” drywall that I would need a minimum of 2.5” between the pipe and the joists. If you look carefully, you can see 2.5" of blocking that served as my minimum spacing when I reconfigured the pipe. My plan is to clean and wrap the pipe with soundproofing material and then recreate the proper slope with pipe hangers secured to the ceiling of my new soundproofed shell. I will then further encapsulate the pipe with framing, insulation, OSB/Green Glue/Drywall AND THEN build out the perimeter soffit around this and the other mechanicals using more of the same standard soundproofing techniques. This should be more than enough to quell the sound of running water, flushing toilets and the like. The ¾” PEX water lines will also be remounted directly to the underside of the soundproof shell after being wrapped with standard foam pipe wrap FWIW.


Full view of the total mess of mechanical lines I have to deal with in the ceiling of this theater. Not only are there water and drain lines, but gas lines and two VERY noisy HVAC line sets. I have unsecured everything so the soundproof shell can be built and the lines insulated / wrapped and secured to the shell. Like I described above for the drain and water lines, I will be building a "box" around all of these mechanicals to contain the sound, followed by the soundproofed perimeter soffit. Hopefully this will eliminate any sounds from these mechanical systems seeping into the theater and raising my noise floor.


Two AC line sets, gas lines, and temporary installation (support) of the 10" flex return line dedicated for the theater HVAC. I left the full length of the 10” flex duct in place until it is determined exactly where I will be placing the return air duct. Once this is determined, I will cut the flex, add a rigid 90 degree elbow and 10” rigid pipe down into the 14x14 return air box collar. This is done for three reasons: 1. So the HVAC penetration through the soundproof shell is with rigid pipe (the preferred method professionals use); 2. The ceiling penetration is contained within the soundproof soffit (with acoustic caulking around the penetration, fyi); 3. The 90 degree elbow will hinder the amount of escaping sound through this penetration and fan noise from the nearby HVAC unit from entering the room. Well, at least that’s the plan!


Full picture of rear wall. You can see immediately behind the theater framing that this is another area where I was previously trying to maximize the theater dimensions. The original back wall is a 2x6 wall directly underneath the steel support beam and faced with ½” OSB, Green Glue and ½” drywall. The wall is filled with R19 and the theater wall will naturally be filled with R13 and covered with DD 5/8” + GG. But this is another area of potential “triple leaf effect”. Fortunately the right wall and most of the front wall are backed by concrete covered directly with closed cell spray foam.


Right side wall of theater. The wall is built in front of 2" of closed cell polyurethane spray foam that was applied to the concrete foundation wall. I slid the wall into position as close as possible and trimmed down a bunch of “peaks” in the spray foam with my reciprocating saw where the framing was hitting high points in the foam. I probably gave myself about 1.5” of room by doing this while still preserving a minimum spray foam thickness. I will have to go back and do some reframing around the line sets because I am not happy with how these mechanicals run through the wall. I think I can reframe a bit and do better.


Left side of theater wall. Theater door is in the left side of the photo. As you can see, I will have to deal with a steel support beam running horizontally through the middle of my room. This is unfortunate because I will be building a fiber optic star ceiling and like the continuity a single large area provides. However, dividing the soffit in two is not the end of the world.


Front theater wall. Behind the framing on the left side (where you see the drywall), there is a two foot extension that was originally going to be orphaned space. Since I am fighting for every inch of depth and viewing distance I might – MIGHT – take the plunge and open this area up to gain the extra cubic volume for my infinite baffle subwoofer system. I might pick up 5 or 6 inches of depth in the room by being able to slide the baffle wall back even further, but I will be discussing this with Dennis first before I commit the hours to redoing this part of the theater. As discussed above, green foam indicates where the concrete foundation is along my front wall.


To house all of my equipment for the whole house including the theater, I purchased two Middle Atlantic MRK-4431 racks which can be ganged together. These racks came from through an eBay deal a couple of years ago and were already outfitted with a full-blown thermal management system, power protection system and rear door. As luck would have it, a year or so later another seller on eBay was liquidating the EXTREMELY expensive smoked plexiglass locking front doors brand new, so I was able to pick up on two of them. I am actually almost as excited to put together the rack and load all the equipment as I am building out the theater. I have a massive number of dedicated circuits and low voltage wiring running into this rack area. You will also see that I located these racks at the foot of the basement steps so there is still easy access from upstairs in case I need to load any media. As the crow flies, the front of the rack is about 7 feet away from the left wall of the theater which is on the other side of the steps. After I lay hardwood in this area, the racks will sit directly on the floor and are framed to protrude through the wall. These racks represent the front of a fully dedicated equipment room, complete with dedicated ventilation systems.


Another view of the racks:

I will be posting a lot more photos, plus separate posts highlighting my equipment plan, my full basement plan and my soundproofing plan featuring products from Kinetics Noise Control and the ubiquitous Green Glue.
Edited by TMcG - 12/6/12 at 8:56am

What I have marked as "stone metal" I planned to discuss in an upcoming post about my lighting plan which is proving to be quite elaborate - but I might as well share some of the design right now.

So far, this is my color pallet for the room:


All the finish carpentry will be African Mahogany and the carpet will most-likely be by Kane (Style shown is called "charming" in the color "Obsidian"). Here's a few pics of the actual veneer I bought unfinished, along with a finished example. I am not settled on this finishing style yet, but it is a consideration and matches well with everything I would like to do from a style perspective:








Now, to answer your question about the "stone metal". I wanted to internally light the columns and not use any surface mounted fixtures or any recessed can lights pointing straight down on the column. After some research and to keep with the Art Deco style theme, I decided I wanted to backlight some sort of alabaster stone. A quick trip to the stone distributor / fabricator convinced me that I either had to hit the lottery, capitalize on the inheritance I can expect from a long-lost Nigerian uncle I had which I receive so many e-mails about or find another material alternative. A bit more searching and I came across Kokomo Opalescent Glass which manufactures art glass by hand, typically used for stained glass windows. After receiving samples I knew that this would work, but given that the glass is only 1/8" thick and NOT tempered, one wrong move and I could have an expensive art glass panel shatter into a million shards. It was just about that time that StockMonkey was building his Desert Sunset theater. You can see the installation of his material at THIS post. I contacted StockMonkey and he said he ordered this material from a company called 3-Form in his state of Utah. FAIR WARNING - you can literally spend hours combing through this company's website. If you ever need unbelievably good cutting edge design ideas, set aside some time and go through the galleries.

Needless to say, but it wasn't long before I stumbled on 3-Form's "Alabaster" with either grey or brown graining and ordered a sample of both. In a word - the material is perfect for my needs. Here's a couple of pictures of the samples I received. The "lit" sample is just me holding it up to one of my kitchen lights about 3 feet away from the sample. Properly lit I can imagine it will be stunning. Apologies for the fuzzy pictures and bad lighting...







So that's the stone part. If you refer to my first post you will see a picture of the Paramount Theater where there is backlit glass but also sculptural metal in front of it, giving another dimension of detail to the design. This is where I have struggled to find the design cues I like to incorporate into custom metal work - and where I would love to have some input from this forum. I'll have to dive into this topic a bit more deeply at a later post, but here is where my head is at now:



As it stands now, I'd like to develop a full-scale design using the curve structure similar to that in the light above. You could think of my columns as replicating this fixture on a much larger (and flatter) scale with the alabaster behind decorative metalwork.

To take things one step further I am probably going to use a professional-grade RGB LED lighting package from Color Kinetics so I can mimic incandescent lighting with the backlight, but then change to any color under the rainbow at a moments notice and other cool features like slow color rolls, etc. This is what I am actually working on right now.

Stockmonkey chose to directly illuminate his panels with 120v light. To avoid hotspots and yield a smoother overall look with these professional lights, I am in consultation with 3-Form's lighting engineers where they have offered a bit of complimentary help to integrate their products. I'll post what I can with more of my patented hand drawings / engineering schematics.

I hope this answers your question with sufficient detail and I would REALLY like to hear some input on this design direction.


Now, regarding the projector....I am looking at an Epson 5020 or 6020 which has sufficient light output and has throw distances that enable me to mount it at the very back of my room. HOWEVER, the further back the projector goes, the dimmer it gets. To maintain my ideal 16 ft. lamberts on a screen this big, that requires that the projector be installed at around 17.5' maximum throw distance which puts it right above the back bar area. Another reason for keeping within the 17.5' throw distance is that the Panamorph UH-480 anamorphic lens has its focal sweet spot at this maximum distance. If I put the projector at the back of the room I will probably have to send the lens to Panamorph for conversion to a "long focal length" lens package at a cost of $995. So I, meaning Dennis Erskine, has some work to do on this part of the design!

If I stick with the 17.5' throw I will NOT be using a viewport and the projector will be in open air. If I put the projector in the back of the room I will be enclosing the projector in a hush box with a view port. When force-ventilating a projector hush box it is extremely important to have 100% control of the intake and exhaust air for ventilation. If I did not have a Viewport, negative pressure created by the powered exhaust of the ventilation system would draw MASSIVE amounts of dust through an open viewport "hole" in the hushbox which is not good for your optics for obvious reasons. Second, the beam propagation for most projectors is not so extreme that the viewport's size would be the limiting factor in selecting a projector. It is really the distance between the front of the projector's lens to the back of the viewport's glass. We'll see how everything shakes out in the coming months.

From the floor to the underside of the perimeter soffit will be about 92", which is the 7'7" you see. In the middle of the room where the fiber optic star ceiling will go, I gain another 8" in height so the center "coffers" of the room will be in the 8'3" range to the ceiling. My riser height is currently specified at 11.5", so deduct this from each of the two measurements.

So for people in the back bar nearing 6'7" tall, they may want to watch their heads when walking under the soffit. But like I said above - the back bar may be eliminated and if I do keep it, the people sitting there should just appreciate that they have a seat if the regular chairs are full!!

I am planning for panel mold around the acoustic panels, but this may change slightly when I get to the finish carpentry stage. Crown and base molding will overlap the columns, but the chair rail will not since I will have a large backlit piece of alabaster to light the column.

I am open to suggestions, but most people on this forum and several others seem to really like the Fi Car Audio IB-318 subwoofer driver. On my original ceiling-view sketch you will see the subwoofers in self-contained opposing driver manifolds sticking into the IB chamber. For the front elevation drawing I didn't bother penciling in the manifolds between the center channel and the left and right speakers respectively.

I need to talk with Dennis about this, but the initial review of my drawings did not yield any balancing subwoofers for the room, which surprised me given my room's cubic volume and the added benefit 10" or 12" subs can provide in helping to balance out the bass in the room. I'll keep everyone posted when I get everything finalized which will have to be incredibly soon if I am going to start closing up the walls.

Regarding the 4x VAS....I had an extensive conversation with Scott, the President of Fi Car Audio regarding exactly how much VAS was needed. As a rule of thumb, the absolute minimum is 3x VAS. There is noticeable improvement if you go to 4x VAS, but beyond this the law of diminishing returns kicks in. He said to target a 4x VAS space and the addition of pink insulation will make the drivers act like they are operating in an 8x to 10x VAS space. Beyond 10x VAS there is absolutely zero acoustic benefit. As it stands now, I am just over 4x VAS and will have the drivers "seeing" about 9.1x VAS when I add the insulation into the baffle wall chamber.

Thanks Bill! Send me a PM when you are ready. New baby is expected April 19, so I am on a bit of an extreme deadline to get things done. I would love to pay you a visit in early April...I hear there's a small little golf tournament around that time....

And thanks as well for the screen print info. That certainly works, but you definitely lose in resolution. Another AVS member had Acrobat and did the conversion for me in about 5 minutes. Moving forward I'll just scan into jpg when I produce any other drawings.

Good points JPA. I specifically designed the room so the IB chamber would be contained within the soundproofed shell, so hopefully this will contain the full power of this system without shaking the house (and waking the future baby!). We'll see, but I'll rest easy knowing that I did everything possible that was practical and within budget to keep this sound contained in the theater.

You are correct regarding the door - I could easily have the door hinged in any direction. Here was my reasoning for having it swing the way I have it planned: I could have the theater door open and not blocking either the lighted movie poster or the pool cue holder which will be on the other side. By having the door on the inside I also create a recess on the exterior of the theater door for some of the decorative elements that will be on the front surface of the door, including some RGB LED lighting and Art Deco metalwork. And finally, it would be difficult if not impossible to "hide" the door inside the theater and have all the acoustic panels on the same plane. This last point was actually my primary consideration for having it the way I do now. So it does encroach on the riser and make it more difficult for the people sitting in the proposed back bar area, but access everywhere else should be fine. I haven't mentioned this before, but I was even considering installing a small railing to block access to the upper tier back bar as soon as you walk in, forcing traffic around the seating area to the roomier step. This is just a consideration, nothing final yet.

I really appreciate the feedback! What are your thoughts after hearing my rationale for the door swing?
Edited by TMcG - 12/6/12 at 11:31am

It was no big deal, really. Since each one is built to order all I had to do was request that the pull-chain system NOT be installed, specify where a standard metal romex connector needed to go (and the size of the hole) and requested four drilled holes (two per side) for securing the light box to the framing when recessed. They are doing the same for the marquee, fyi. I will probably be placing my order for both by Christmas. Hopefully by the time I receive them the drywall will be installed and painted in my basement and they can be installed / enjoyed immediately!

Technically, two. From inside the theater to my basement stairwell I am planning for:
- 2" Quest Acoustic panel (budget allowing)
- 5/8" drywall
- Green Glue
- 1/2" OSB
- 2x4 framing filled with Roxul Safe 'n Sound (R-13 equivalent) insulation
- 1" air gap
- 1/2" drywall
- Green Glue
- 1/2" OSB
- 2x4 framing filled with standard R-13 batt insulation
- 1/2" drywall (finished side of stairwell)

The scenario above is ONLY for the left side and rear of the theater where you see drywall behind the framing. You and I discussed that clips and track to these walls wouldn't be of much value at this point. After seeing these pictures, do you foresee any problems or would you make any changes to the above? Thanks!

Pricing varies by panel style and I don't have a quotation (with shipping from Utah, fyi) yet, but early word is this material is approximately $850.00 per 4' x 8' panel. My alabaster "window" in the column will be 16" wide to maximize the material at three columns per sheet. Unfortunately I will need two sheets just for this feature.

I have a bit of additional information on this comment, because I was exploring alternative options (i.e. less foam) when getting this spray foam a couple of years ago. A lot of the spray foam companies are offering an alternative to the full depth foam for those who want to completely air seal a space but can't afford the full depth of product. They call it "flash and batt" where they spray about 1/2" to 3/4" of closed cell foam to get the air seal and then you can install your own R-13 batt for the insulative value. This is only about a 85% vapor barrier at this thickness and you will not get the full R-13 from your batt because part is compressed (due to losing the 1/2" depth to spray foam), but overall the insulative value of this is R14.

To get full air sealing and a 95% vapor barrier, that can be done with 1" of foam. If you are getting a spray foam quote for 2", you can literally divide that quote in half. The only problem is that you will have rip 1" material and attach it to the facing of every stud with glue and screws to install an R-13 batt without significant compression. Total R value of this assembly is just short of R20.

The full 2" gets you the 99.9% - 100% vapor barrier after which Dennis is right - the benefit of deeper foam falls off the cliff. Where it does not fall off the cliff is in regards to additional insulating value. Many folks will fully fill exterior walls with the 3.5" of foam for this exact reason. So while I agree it is not necessary to go beyond 2" for air sealing and vapor barrier, you can go as deep as you like in 2" "lifts" to get additional insulation value.

I went with the foam against the concrete primarily for the full vapor barrier, but also as a very efficient insulation. As you can see in the shots below, the foam guys sprayed directly on the theater wall before I framed. I then built my walls in front of the foam.

I actually got a bit lucky because their install guys had never sprayed on open walls before - always between studding where they had a good handle on how much depth they were spraying. If you look at my pictures, you can see where they were spraying the foam 4-5" thick at the bottom before they realized about halfway through the project that they were spraying WAY too much foam. I ended up getting a LOT of free foam because of the error. So from the middle of the wall to the top you can see where I gain another 2.5" in depth between the back side of the framing and the front face of the spray foam. I ended up cutting down some of the high points of the spray foam on the bottom of the wall with my Sawzall as you can see in some of the pictures. At no point does any of the theater framing touch the closed cell foam, although it might look close in the pictures.



Cutting down a high point of foam in the lower portion of the wall


Just over 2.5" of gap from the back of the framing to the foam from the middle height of the wall to the upper height:



Edited by TMcG - 12/6/12 at 8:34pm

The 1/2" drywall I previously installed was given to me for free by a neighbor who had his basement professionally finished, so I cheaped out and used it. I still have the option of using two layers of 5/8" drywall for the interior of the theater, but I like the idea of finding something for my finish carpentry to really bite into literally anywhere I want. There is quite a difference between the pounds per square foot for 7/16" OSB and 5/8" drywall.

If I build my shell entirely out of two layers of 5/8" drywall, what is the best method to build my perimeter soffit on top of the soundproof shell? Go all the way down to the original studding with a direct connection or anchoring products such as plastic toggles? I suppose that since my walls are decoupled it doesn't matter one bit if the soffit was fixated to the ceiling and wall framing directly.

Thanks Spaceman! I can tell already that selecting an acoustic fabric that will jive with everything is going to be the toughest. I just got a delivery today . . . a brand new Canon Rebel T4i so hopefully my pictures will improve dramatically over my standard 4MP point-and-shoot. I'll try to take some of my first pictures with the new camera of the interior design plan so it's not quite so dark and fuzzy.