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The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 27

post #781 of 897
No pressure!
post #782 of 897
Great updates, thannks Tim! Looking forward to seeing how that very cool door hardware turns out...
post #783 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

OK, yet another delivery today....another Savant SSR-1000 remote control. I found this one gently used and it will find a nice home in our Master Bedroom. I now have three and may get one more.



As you can see, it integrates an iPod Touch with hard buttons


You can surf the internet on it if you want


I can't wait to get these babies programmed in the next couple of months and start using them!

Boy....................can I hire you out for my automation? It's still on my to do list.................................

Oregon is beautiful.....................and my wife bakes wonderful cookies!!!! biggrin.gif
post #784 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I can't wait to get these babies programmed in the next couple of months and start using them!
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Boy....................can I hire you out for my automation? It's still on my to do list.................................

Oregon is beautiful.....................and my wife bakes wonderful cookies!!!! biggrin.gif

I should have said I can't wait to get these babies programmed by my dealer in the next couple of months..... biggrin.gif I'll still visit and could even do the control install, I just can't do the programming.

The Savant Racepoint Blueprint software is available for purchase, but only to authorized dealers and costs like $6000+ for the dealers to buy after they are certified. Hiring a programmer is necessary, but since my entire system will be wired to perfection and well-mapped out, all he has to do is walk in with his laptop and start making the "connections" through programming. My dealer and I both think that programming and testing should take just one day, despite the scale of the system. I think more work will go into setting up all the network devices, WAPs, router and gigabit network switch than in actual programming as most of the equipment I have has "modules". If it doesn't, it only takes about 15 to 20 minutes to write a programming module for each piece of equipment if it isn't already available on the internet or via a dealer support site.
Edited by TMcG - 1/18/14 at 9:57am
post #785 of 897
If you haven't already done the wire pull back. Add a piece of mason's line (very strong braided string) to the yellow wire before pulling it down along with the fish tape. It takes up very little room and gives you a second chance. If you don't need it, leave it in place incase you need something else at a later date.

Before you pull back up, you will give the connection a wrap with electrical tape, of course. Start the wrap on the new wire you are pulling up and wind the tape around in the "direction you are pulling". This will layer the over-lap in the tape like shingles on the roof...this way the edge of the tape won't catch as you pull it through each hole. Every little bit helps!

You probably know to strip enough shielding off the end of the wire to allow the folded over wire to not lap it. I sometimes cut off some of the wires to provide a thinner end to the new cable. This makes it easier for the new wire to "find it's path" and the electrical tape provides the taper as it progresses to it's full diameter. One wrap of tape should be enough...it adds bulk.

Do you have a second body to push up as you are pulling and to make sure there aren't any snags?

Good luck!
post #786 of 897
what if you took a small jigsaw blade and notched the hole larger (carefully of course) would that make things easier for you, or ALL the wholes leading to where you need to go like this so opening up this one would do no real good?
post #787 of 897
Thread Starter 
Jim - good point about the mason line. I pillaged the box of polyethylene line at Lowe's (the free stuff to lash bulky items to your vehicle), but the stuff is incredibly slippery. Masons line is a great alternative. And the pre-wrap to the wire before attaching to the fish tape is also a great point and something I just naturally do, but sometimes I forget there are a lot of people who read these threads that don't know about these little gems. Thanks for bringing it up.

David - If anything, I considered drilling a hole very close to my existing hole and knocking out the rest with a quick chisel job, but there are 3 other layers of blocking I wouldn't be able to reach with either approach. I wouldn't trust my ability to keep a high-speed reciprocating blade steady enough to not cut the heck out of the existing wires.

My normally reliable "help" ended up cancelling for last night and today, so I am a bit stuck as far as wiring is concerned because it is a two-person job. What I didn't mention before is that I need to use the yellow wire to pull a fish tape down in the basement.....but then I need to pull the AMX wire AND the PoE wire back up through the hole. I will be using every trick in the book...cable lube, stacking the wires, taping extra tight with a minimum of tape, vibrating the fish tape, having a second person push the wire from below to relieve any possible pulling tension.....we'll see how it goes when I cross that bridge. To Jim's point I will use the mason line as my fail-safe for another try or another approach.
post #788 of 897
Thread Starter 
Small update. Over the summer I picked up on a deal for a Binary B-300 8x8 HDMI Matrix switch so I could distribute HDMI throughout my home from a common distribution point in my equipment rack. But I was able to pick up on Savant Systems' new 8x8 HDMI Matrix Switch, the SLN-88BT.

With this switch, there is one pretty significant downgrade and a couple of nice upgrades. The big downgrade is that both the category wire outputs and HDMI outputs for a given output are not active at the same time, so you have to pick either one or the other and you can't have an easy duplicate of the output signal. The Binary product had both outputs active. The advantages are that this switch will more easily integrate with the Savant Automation system (as you might have expected!), that the switching is the fastest in the industry, it uses broadcast quality components and uses HDBaseT technology to send the signals to remote locations. HDBaseT is a single-wire technology that can not only ship the full HDMI signal, but also network data, IR in/out, RS-232 and Audio Return channel for up to 1000 feet over a single wire at full 1080p/60fps with zero loss in signal quality. In other words, it's the cat's meow when it comes to HDMI signal transfer technologies. I also like that there is a coax digital output for each zone right beside the HDMI input, making it easy to loop the digital audio signal directly into a local receiver. And one last thing...the HDMI Matrix switch powers all of these devices directly via PoE, so no secondary power adapter at the display location is needed.

Front:


Rear:


Close-up of rear:


HDMI input with coax digital loop-through output:
IMG_0302_zps8225e66f.jpg

The HDBaseT receiver:
IMG_0305_zpsde964494.jpg

IMG_0304_zps8e10d7e4.jpg

IMG_0303_zpse1c72161.jpg


I also picked up on a Savant SSA-3220 Audio Matrix switch which will drive the whole-home audio system with 32 separate source inputs for up to 20 separate zones. eek.gif This is one of the few switches that has both analog audio inputs as well as coax and TOSLink digital inputs, making life easy having not to transcode the digital audio to analog. It has built in equalizer for each output and again, integration will be a snap since it is a native Savant piece.

Front:


Rear:


Rear close-up:




This switch should match up very well with the new Sherbourn 18 channel amplifiers I just purchased to handle all of the in-ceiling speakers and the future outdoor speakers on the deck and in the landscaping.
Edited by TMcG - 1/26/14 at 3:06am
post #789 of 897
eek.gif

WOW!

When I started renovating my home, 22 years ago, I was cutting edge (here) by running speaker lines from my stereo to a volume rotary control and in-wall speakers in my dining room. 10 years later, I was running speaker wires from a room in the basement to a volume control in each room and from there to speaker locations for some clients who thought it might be kind of neat.

This is....WOW!
post #790 of 897
Thread Starter 
Giving new meaning to the expression "going for broke"..... a pair of Procella P10Si balancing subwoofers were delivered today. After working with Dennis on potential locations and the added value that these can provide in smoothing frequency response in the MLP, I decided to pull the trigger while the framing was still exposed and I had the opportunity to do a bit of surgery to install soundproof backboxes for these things.



On another note, my wife, kids and dogs will be coming home this weekend instead of 3 weeks from now, so I will be maximizing the last of my noise-making freedom before their return Sunday night. Now that I am back home, I will continue to try to catch up on thread posts of past progress and equipment purchases when I can.

Updated gear link below.
post #791 of 897
Man once you are done you will have to invite Judy and Me up for a viewing. Maybe then I can convince here the BOSE 301s and 201s need to go LOL
post #792 of 897
Thread Starter 
Would be glad to have you both up for a visit anytime. Just make sure to drive that new pony up so you can take me for a white-knuckle ride! biggrin.gif
post #793 of 897
That made me spit my drink out laughing. Warning my wife will go into full Nanna mode on your little one. wink.gif
post #794 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

OK, yet another delivery today....another Savant SSR-1000 remote control. I found this one gently used and it will find a nice home in our Master Bedroom. I now have three and may get one more.



As you can see, it integrates an iPod Touch with hard buttons


You can surf the internet on it if you want


I can't wait to get these babies programmed in the next couple of months and start using them!

I'm sure it works like a dream but the design of this controller looks like its out of the 70's confused.gif
post #795 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkseo View Post

I'm sure it works like a dream but the design of this controller looks like its out of the 70's confused.gif

Well, the 70s may be a little harsh, but I would definitely agree there is room for improvement. What I don't like about this remote is that it lacks hard buttons for shuttle control (play, pause, stop, skip, etc.) and the standard Red / Blue / Green / Yellow that are common for DVRs, Cable Boxes and other devices. That alone would solve most of this remote's issues. But when you lock yourself into an automation system, you are locking yourself into their available handheld remotes (something I wish there was at least some sort of 3rd party development for).

I had the Mio R4 remote with my AMX system and it functioned really well:


When I moved to Crestron, their best was the PTX3, which was *OK*, but not that great:


There are others like the RTI T2X which looks very good:
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 90

Or the URC TRC1280
This image is part of a copyrighted collection. (C) 2007-2009 Appliance Retailing Information Systems LLC, all rights reserved

Or the Logitech Ultimate:


These last three remotes either don't have a supporting automation system or have a backbone that doesn't scale very easily when compared to a dedicated automation system. One is like a remote control company trying to do automation...the other is an automation company offering a variety of interfaces.

Hopefully when there is a Gen 2 update of the Savant remote it will be more in line with the competition, but for now it is still the fastest and most powerful remotes out there from an integration perspective. I anticipate needing to call up a lot of music without having a TV display or computer on to navigate the media server. This remote does this task very effectively with the native Apple interface. I can suffer through using the shuttle controls on the touch screen as the tradeoff.

Thanks for following along and commenting in the thread.
post #796 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Well, the 70s may be a little harsh, but I would definitely agree there is room for improvement. What I don't like about this remote is that it lacks hard buttons for shuttle control (play, pause, stop, skip, etc.) and the standard Red / Blue / Green / Yellow that are common for DVRs, Cable Boxes and other devices. That alone would solve most of this remote's issues. But when you lock yourself into an automation system, you are locking yourself into their available handheld remotes (something I wish there was at least some sort of 3rd party development for).

I had the Mio R4 remote with my AMX system and it functioned really well:


When I moved to Crestron, their best was the PTX3, which was *OK*, but not that great:


There are others like the RTI T2X which looks very good:
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 90

Or the URC TRC1280
This image is part of a copyrighted collection. (C) 2007-2009 Appliance Retailing Information Systems LLC, all rights reserved

Or the Logitech Ultimate:


These last three remotes either don't have a supporting automation system or have a backbone that doesn't scale very easily when compared to a dedicated automation system. One is like a remote control company trying to do automation...the other is an automation company offering a variety of interfaces.

Hopefully when there is a Gen 2 update of the Savant remote it will be more in line with the competition, but for now it is still the fastest and most powerful remotes out there from an integration perspective. I anticipate needing to call up a lot of music without having a TV display or computer on to navigate the media server. This remote does this task very effectively with the native Apple interface. I can suffer through using the shuttle controls on the touch screen as the tradeoff.

Thanks for following along and commenting in the thread.



Like going to the local B&M and shopping for a remote! To be honest, the Savant remote looks more promising and I don't see the 70's look! I lived through the 70's.......................can't remote-ly remember seeing anything like that! biggrin.gif

Did I make a pun? redface.gif
post #797 of 897
The SR-250 doesn't have much of a GUI, but the buttons are buttons are laid out and program well. I've been using the OSD or mobile apps primarily. If I didn't have those, I could definitely see wanting something like that on your remote.

post #798 of 897
Thread Starter 
You hit the nail on the head Blldo. Always turning on a display or digging out an iPad when I wanted to play ripped music was just not going to be convenient for my needs, especially with how many zones of audio I will have throughout my home.

A friend of mine just put in a full-blown Control4 system, including 6 of these SR-250 remotes. I was surprised by what I would call "the hidden costs" in that it REQUIRES an HC-200 or 300 controller behind every single TV to get the on-screen display. That's a lot of extra hardware and cost, to say the least. Plus the remote had a limited Zigbee range which is woefully underutilized on this remote compared to the potential bidirectional control offers. When he was in his kitchen, adjacent to the family room with a large 65" TV, he had to walk back in the family room each time he wanted to make changes because of this limited range. This is understandable because typically those controllers are stuffed behind the flat panel, limiting their signal reception.
post #799 of 897

TMcG, just to let you know I install C4 and never have put a controller behind every TV location. The main reason as you said is, it adds way too much to the project. I would try to do video matrixing and add one GUI to the matrix that all TVs can share. That being said, only one room can use it at one time, but this never seems to be a problem with the costumer when you let them know if cuts down on buying a controller at each TV location. The other thing is that using the SR-250 remote menu is WAY faster than the on screen GUI, and most customers seem to learn this quickly. The TV on screen GUI is great the first couple times you use it but after a while you just want to send your command as quickly as possible. With the new controllers they have the built in mobile device control. Most people have a smart phone in their pocket to allow them to use the GUI if they want to that way. The last thing is the control4 Zigbee network can be extended by adding some light switches or plugs. In my opinion I would of save your buddy some cash on not selling controllers behind every TV and add a couple plug modules that would allow him to have the proper mess network throughout his hole house.

Keep in mind that the planning of a automations system will make or break the system, much like the whole planning of the room the theater is going to be installed in. I am not saying I know everything but special consideration needs to be looked into the small things that will make the customer much happier in the long run, even if that means not making as much money selling 2 or three extra pieces of equipment.

Just my two cents, not trying to hijack the thread here.

post #800 of 897
Thread Starter 
When you say "video matrixing", are you talking HDMI or do you use composite, component or some sort of modulation, switching the TV's input to a special "GUI" input/channel? Just curious as to what your current hardware approach is.

I should clarify my statement when I said he *just* installed the system. He put it in 3 years ago, so some of the latest features were not available at the time. He has an Atlona 8x8 HDMI matrix, but it is filled to capacity from a source perspective and the jump to an 8x16 carried an extreme premium a few years ago . . . something like an additional $15,000. Each person wanted their own cable DVR (a couple are still shared) and there is shared access of the Bluray, HTPC and Apple TV / Roku which already share one HDMI source input (through a 2x1 switch with IR control-UGH!). The other thing not mentioned is that both parents and all five of their kids are TOTAL media enthusiasts. I've never seen anything like it. The chances of multiple users accessing the GUI at the same time would be high, in my opinion, especially right after school. There's also the fact that his home is HUGE and three zones are outside the main structure - a pool house, a large detached garage with a "man-lounge" (as I call it) and a separate guest house that can share the equipment's source components. Although functional, I personally thought the Control4 system was a weak choice in automation, especially given the scale of his system and property....but that's just me.

So that's the full story but my point remains the same - that to get full, unfettered functionality, you need the HC-200/300 behind each display, especially if you want to avoid installing a zillion Zigbee repeaters for a large-scale home. 802.11n or ac becomes a much more effective system by comparison with its higher-power. In a smaller-scale system your approach makes more sense - and that's probably the "bread and butter" of systems you install. I'm also glad to see Control4 has gotten their act together (or more together) vs. their "dark days", say 5 years ago when that system was legendary for being riddled with hardware and software problems. He'd had issues with the controller and the 16x16 Control4 Audio matrix switch, but those seem to be resolved with hardware swaps under warranty.
Edited by TMcG - 1/29/14 at 5:43am
post #801 of 897

Well that is a much bigger system than imagined. I would also have to agree with you about the Control4 coming a long way. They are on good pace and seem not to be slowing down.

Yes I tend to install mid-sized systems, maybe 6-8 TV locations with 8-12 zones of audio, lighting, HVAC, security etc. I have been slowing down on component matrixing and moving more into HDbaseT, it seems to be kind of forced at this time. Most component are moving to only HDMI for the quality we all want.

I am still not a huge fan of the on screen GUI that is why I stay away from it as much as possible. The on screen GUI also is taxing on the processor running it.

The hole network part, I would agree that 802.11n is a stronger network per transmitter, but most of the systems I will install I will try to sell lighting with it. This will help create a great mess network. In my opinion the lighting is pretty much the most interesting part of the system, especially when it comes to programing and automating with it. Light can really give that WOW factor most people what to see with the automations systems.

You may be right about C4, back then it may not of be as scalable as your friend needed, and other systems could of been better suited for his needs (most at a larger price tag). For my applications C4 has been great. When it comes to automation there are a lot of great systems out there! They ALL have benefits and downfalls. I am more than willing to admit that with what I install as well.

post #802 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayliketheDIRT View Post

I have been slowing down on component matrixing and moving more into HDbaseT, it seems to be kind of forced at this time. Most component are moving to only HDMI for the quality we all want.

I would think that either running three wires for component video or using an HDBaseT transmitter / receiver (plus dedicated cat wire and key terminals) to each display location, plus the cost of a matrix switch, would be much more expensive than the cost of an HC-200 or 300 at each display location, not factoring in the additional programming required, the extension of IR emitters for the TV (vs. just plugging into the local HC unit) and other more subtle complications. I may be wrong, but that's my gut impression to the other approach to optimizing C4's hardware design structure.

Would love to see some of your installs! Do you have any picture posts in other threads?
Edited by TMcG - 1/29/14 at 7:04am
post #803 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

You hit the nail on the head Blldo. Always turning on a display or digging out an iPad when I wanted to play ripped music was just not going to be convenient for my needs, especially with how many zones of audio I will have throughout my home.

A friend of mine just put in a full-blown Control4 system, including 6 of these SR-250 remotes. I was surprised by what I would call "the hidden costs" in that it REQUIRES an HC-200 or 300 controller behind every single TV to get the on-screen display. That's a lot of extra hardware and cost, to say the least. Plus the remote had a limited Zigbee range which is woefully underutilized on this remote compared to the potential bidirectional control offers. When he was in his kitchen, adjacent to the family room with a large 65" TV, he had to walk back in the family room each time he wanted to make changes because of this limited range. This is understandable because typically those controllers are stuffed behind the flat panel, limiting their signal reception.

I haven't had any issues with range, but my house is pretty small. I usually have my iPad or phone with me when I'm at home anyway (can't seem to ever turn off), so it's not really been a big deal. The navigation on the SR-250 is also surprisingly usable for playing music. Much easier than I anticipated, but nowhere as easier as yours should be. And yeah, the OSD is really only used when the TV is already on or when I'm showing it off to guests. I ordered a portable touch screen which I'm hoping to be a happy medium for guests or the nanny so they quit taking my iPad.

Looking forward to seeing your system get set up.
post #804 of 897

Unfortunately I do not have any pics, sorry. I haven't had much activity in regards to posting on the forum. The only threads I have, is my media room and lounge that I am currently working on  in my basement. It’s no ware comparable to the construction you are doing (not as elaborate), but I am working with what I have.

As for the costs I found that if you doing over 4 Tvs you can get a 8x8 component switch from shinybow for a very reasonable price, less than a controller from C4. As for the HDbaseT, it’s more expensive but I seem to have had some good success making my own drivers for equipment I found at hdtvsupply. The cabling I have the belief that structural cabling with video baluns is the way to go. To me it’s a bit more future proof. All you need is three or four cables behind each TV, and I usually will pull a cheap 22awg copper 4wire with them for IR control.

If you’re working with a bunch of TVs I think it’s cheaper than dropping a controller at each location.

You also have to factor equipment in to the mix. With matrixing you don’t have to have a dvd, media PC, cable box, at each TV so you can factor that into the equation.

If you don’t want to matrix video then you can always still control your TV locations with the zigbee to IR modules, they are very reasonable and as long as the mess network is there you shouldn't have a problem running your TV and components at that location.

I guess most of all this depends on the size of your project. Like your buddies, His seems like a huge undertaking and like you said they wanted A LOT of components. Like I said I tend to stay to mid side project, I do this all as a second job on the side. There are a lot of people with much more experience than me here on this site.

The big thing with the home Automation is the price. As long as I can find a good piece of equipment at a reasonable cost, and also works well with a controller I am willing to use it.  I don’t know a lot about the Savant system but hear good things about it. I know I guy who ripped out his Crestron system to put it in. He seems to like it, had a couple limitations with it but by the sounds of it was the right choice for him. He’s a big Mac guy and that system seems to definitely be well suited for him.

post #805 of 897



Figured I'd give you the J_P_A treatment!!!! wink.gif
post #806 of 897
Thread Starter 
Well-deserved to some extent, but I've been home sporadically exactly 11 days in the last 9 weeks with domestic and international travel for work. I was to be home more days, but all of the flight cancellations played havoc with my schedule. And when I did get home, a good number of those days were spent turning around my suitcase for the next trip. No excuses, just a function of priorities.

The most recent "progress" was a massive deep-clean and tool reorganization, along with almost finishing all of the low voltage wiring runs.
post #807 of 897
I guess My Pronto Pro is a little outdated frown.gif
post #808 of 897

Here T,

 

Dual 10ft sealed for either LMS-U or UXL-18.......................no real difference IMHO......... add 6db for two dual drivers. I can post four drivers and two drivers on same graph if you want. Just ask..............;)

 

As mentioned before, you'll be much happier and have an easier time with integration and room response with four separate cabs............both drivers can use smaller boxes than 4 cubes.

 

post #809 of 897

Varying box sizes............larger, the greater your output down low.  The driver works in almost any size vented, closed.  I used all configurations closed, let me know if you want vented modeled in what size cab and what frequency tuned.

 

 

T,  Varying box sizes, of course on larger boxes you have less need to use amp watts in eq if you are power limited. Excursion graphs are included and will have to move HP filter up frequency chain with larger boxes.

 

UXL is really a diverse driver.................if you want models in vented boxes, just indicate size box, tune etc.

post #810 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Giving new meaning to the expression "going for broke"..... a pair of Procella P10Si balancing subwoofers were delivered today. After working with Dennis on potential locations and the added value that these can provide in smoothing frequency response in the MLP, I decided to pull the trigger while the framing was still exposed and I had the opportunity to do a bit of surgery to install soundproof backboxes for these things.



On another note, my wife, kids and dogs will be coming home this weekend instead of 3 weeks from now, so I will be maximizing the last of my noise-making freedom before their return Sunday night. Now that I am back home, I will continue to try to catch up on thread posts of past progress and equipment purchases when I can.

Updated gear link below.
Awesome. I was going to go with 4 Procella P6V's for my surrounds, but I decided in the end to go with the JTR Single 8's considering that I have JTR 212's for my mains. I would love to hear a full Procella sound system some day. Congrats on your build. Hopefully mine gets started as I have a final meeting with my contractors Wednesday.
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