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Help re-setting up 5.1 speakers

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
ok, it's been a while since I touched the 5.1 setup. I used to tweak it on a monthly basis smile.gif

Gear 5.1:
Paradigm Monitor setup:
L-R - Monitor 9 (older V2 or V3 with 8 inch cones instead of newer 6 inch)
Paradigm Mid sized Center
Paradigm Small rears
Paradigm PS-1000 sub

Situation: With Denon AVR-790, I noticed Airplay music (via Apple TV) is not getting a lot of bass for Stereo mode. Check Sub volume on receiver and sure enough, it is at a very low level. I remember running Odyssey some time ago and using an SPL meter, had this all setup properly. I think I ended up watching less movies and more TV so had to crank the sub down as mid range bass was "leaking" to the sub. Very annoying, I think it is just the poor cable DD signal. Say on a game show, the announcer would talk and the "p" sound would sometimes come through on the sub. So to compensate, the sub volume on the amp was turned down. This fixed the "leak" problem but now, Airplay music is lacking in bass. Movies probably took a hit too, I am not sure. I think the Denon that I have won't remember speaker volume settings for each mode (Stereo, DD, etc...). It is across the board. Anyone know?

Also, the Sub is set to it's highest freq. I think the receiver should send the proper signal to the sub right so unlike the old days where sub freq needed tweaking. I have not tried to lower the sub freq, I am afraid that this will impact the movies somehow?

So, is there a trick to stop this bass "lead" from HDTV?

Have been getting back into movies and music lately and want some help to -re-setup my gear. Anyone run into this "leak" problem and share some thoughts?
post #2 of 18
I'd suggest following the steps and recommendations described in the Audyssey 101 document. It's easy to overlook something during the calibration if you haven't done it for a while. See http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1

Midrange frequencies "leaking" into the subwoofer channel usually is an indication that the crossover frequency had to be set relatively high. Unfortunately, if your main speakers don't produce low frequencies very well at your listening position, that's unavoidable. frown.gif
post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 
Let me look at the link you posted, thanks in advance. My center is not a large but my L-R sure are. At least based on the specs. We will have to see how I can get this rig setup again, properly!
post #4 of 18
If the center speaker is that much different, you might want to consider eliminating it entirely. In some circumstances, a "phantom center" can be quite effective. Of course, if the seating is scattered around the room, having the center speaker might be necessary for anchoring dialog to the TV.
post #5 of 18
Thread Starter 
Odyseey mic is being setup, will go through the setup later today.

If the leaks are going through, it may well be the center. Just read the manual, if I set the center to large, then in theory, nothing will be sent to the sub from this channel right? I wonder if that will resolve this problem, and bring on another one!
post #6 of 18
Thread Starter 
ok, i see this in the FAQ:

"Once MultEQ calibration is complete the results are stored in the receiver memory.

It is important to activate MultEQ by selecting one of the target curves. This is not performed by default after the calibration is finished and must be selected by the user."

The Denon manual never say anything about needing to choose a curve. Perhaps it's model specific?
post #7 of 18
Thread Starter 
Also noticed some users reporting the "leak" issue from TV broadcasts:

"Welcome to the world of TV production. Let's just say it is standards... challenged. They don't typically monitor with a subwoofer and bass management in the control room. So, all kinds of bass creeps into the mix and they never hear it. Very sad. The same is true for many commercials."

Glad to hear I am not alone in this!
post #8 of 18
If it's spurious sounds in the LFE channel, then you might try turning down the low pass filter on your subwoofer. Of course, that'd also remove valid LFE channel sounds when you're playing a disc.

Setting the center channel to full range, will lose the valid low freqencies in that channel because the speaker can't reproduce them.

Neither of those options are all that great frown.gif

WRT Audyssey, there should be an indicator on the front panel which shows if it's enabled. The Movie curve often is a better choice for movies, since they usually include accentuated high-frequencies to compensate for the losses in large theater rooms.
post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowmah View Post

Also noticed some users reporting the "leak" issue from TV broadcasts:
"Welcome to the world of TV production. Let's just say it is standards... challenged. They don't typically monitor with a subwoofer and bass management in the control room. So, all kinds of bass creeps into the mix and they never hear it. Very sad. The same is true for many commercials."
Glad to hear I am not alone in this!

i noticed the same thing the other night when i watched a movie. the actual movie was perfect, but one of the previews had this problem and it almost made it difficult to understand the dialog. i have not run audyssey yet, but both of my subs are turned down quite a bit. like i said, it was just the preview, the movie was perfect. so, that leads me to believe that this is happening because of a crappy recording. but the problem may only appear is good quality sound systems.
post #10 of 18
Thread Starter 
Recalibrating now. Sheldon, where do you see and set curves?
post #11 of 18
The Audyssey Curve choices are in the Parameter menu. See pages 18, 44 (Sound Field Effects) and 46 (Audyssey) of the 790's manual. The "Audyssey" curve (with attenuated high frequencies) is the same as what's called the "Movie" curve for other receivers, while the "Flat" curve is equivalent to the "Music" curve.
post #12 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

The Audyssey Curve choices are in the Parameter menu. See pages 18, 44 (Sound Field Effects) and 46 (Audyssey) of the 790's manual. The "Audyssey" curve (with attenuated high frequencies) is the same as what's called the "Movie" curve for other receivers, while the "Flat" curve is equivalent to the "Music" curve.

ok, just set things up again. Enjoyed Lord of the Rings, Ghost protocol, Harry potter all over again, well in 30 mins. smile.gif

I did see Audyssey and Flat. So I should change these when listening to music and when watching movies? Now that you mention this, I do know that my music (stereo) is pretty horrible when volume is turned up. Mid freq (vocals) so way too forward. I wonder if this can be tweaked. If so, how can I easily change these between Stereo mode and watching movies in DTS / DD?

Note, I also noted that in movies, sub is great. Listening to music, it's almost non-existent. The receiver volume for sub is -12, basically the lowest setting before OFF. But for movies, it fires loud and hard. Music, it's basically off.
post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 
So I assume after setting up auto, I went in and change fronts to small. Freq for fronts are 40, Center 40 rears at 60. When I go back to audyssey results, it still shows for small. This is still ok?

Music still sounds way too forward sounding. What other tweaks can I try?
post #14 of 18
Thread Starter 
Bump. Anyone?
post #15 of 18
bowmah,

Your subwoofer currently is not calibrated, which messes up the sound you near because you're not getting the bass frequencies. You need to turn down the volume control knob on the subwoofer so that it's no more than half whatever it is now, and then recalibrate Audyssey. You might need to turn it down even farther.

Please review the Audyssey 101 and FAQ information available at http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1

Among other things, it explains that a subwoofer channel level setting of -12 or less means that Audyssey is "pegged" because the volume control knob on the subwoofer is set too high. Audyssey has turned down its output level as far as it can go, but the subwoofer is still too loud to calibrate. For optimal calibration, the subwoofer volume knob should be turned down until its channel level is within a few dB of 0.

Some of the other recommendations in the Audyssey thread may help, too. In particular, it's usually best to set all of the speakers to "small" and raise the crossover frequency to 80 Hz. That'll relieve some of the stress on your receiver's amps, redirecting the low frequency power demands to the subwoofer's internal amp.
post #16 of 18
Thread Starter 
I was thinking of that. No wonder my sub Gain was set at 35% instead of the typical 50%. I probably ran into this in the past when I ran Audyssey calibrations. Will do that again.

I have set all speakers to small and used Audyssey's crossover at 40 (center & L-R) and 60 (rears). You are saying I should just adjust these to 80 all around then?

And thanks for the link, have read that a few times and the .doc file as well. Will try it again when I have another 1 hour of dedicated time.
post #17 of 18
There are several reasons why you should consider raising the crossover frequency for your front speakers.
1. Low frequencies use the most power. By using a higher crossover, you're offloading the receiver's amps and thus providing more headroom in the upper frequencies.
2. In general, powered subwoofers can do a better job of providing the low frequencies than can even the largest woofers.
3. Room effects like standing waves predominate with lower frequencies, so the best placement for a speaker providing them often is not the same as where the main speakers need to be. Since most people can't localize sounds below about 80Hz, you can put the subwoofer wherever it provides the best sound.
post #18 of 18
Thread Starter 
ok, have setup Audyssey again a few times. Each time, the sub was leveled at -12 dB. I think it's sitting too close to the listening position but there is no other choice here. After turning the sub gain to about 1/4 or so, finally got Audyssey to level sub at -1. Did a bunch of listening and liked it better at 0 so it is now set. This was after Audyssey + setting all speakers to small and crossed all channels at 80Hz. Also turned off midnight dynamic volume, pretty sure I disabled any of these "helpers". Boom is gone, many of the bad "leaks" from badly produced TV shows are gone or barely audible.

The biggest difference was setting Stereo to small + sub crossed at 80Hz. The "no bass" problem is gone too. Music is just awesome now.

Thanks for everyone's help!

1. By the way, by default, does the Denon require you to turn on Dynamic EQ after setting up Audyssey? I see a reference here indicating we may need to manually turn it on? https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/226419-dynamic-volume-midnight-on

2. I also see references choosing "MultEQ to the Audyssey Ref. curve". How do I check this, cannot remember the Denon Parameters by memory.
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