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Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark Blu-Ray 2nd Edition - Page 5

post #121 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

My PS3 is set to YCbCr (its 4:4:4) with Superwhite enabled.

Looks great. Look forward ro getting one of these.
post #122 of 636
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Quote:
Hopefully I can throw it in the PS3 Friday night and do some testing on the patterns with my meter.

The PS3 appears to be altering gamma slightly. On a couple OPPOs and some Panasonic players, my display is reported as having a 2.4 gamma. I have also measured and confirmed. Through the PS3 it reports 2.3 gamma. I don't know if it is the dither on the output of the PS3 or something else going on.

Stacey, have you seen the OPPO BDP-105 vs. BDP-103 vs. Quantum Data 780 Comparison?
post #123 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Stacey, have you seen the OPPO BDP-105 vs. BDP-103 vs. Quantum Data 780 Comparison?

Man, you'd never think the 103 and 105 would differ at all...
post #124 of 636
No, I have not. I am not really sure what it is saying. Are all three outputting the same color space? Which HDMI output? What is the source of the images? Lots of questions. smile.gif
post #125 of 636
I could see a variance if they tested HDMI 1 (Marvell) against HDMI 2 (Mediatek). Even though you'd like to think there would not be. I've never bought into the "bit for bit = all players are the same for blu-ray" argument either.

I could not decipher a lot of it with google translate in chrome, but I did check out the images.
post #126 of 636
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I could see a variance if they tested HDMI 1 (Marvell) against HDMI 2 (Mediatek). Even though you'd like to think there would not be. I've never bought into the "bit for bit = all players are the same for blu-ray" argument either.

I could not decipher a lot of it with google translate in chrome, but I did check out the images.

I tryied to find out an Image to Text Translator with no luck. Maybe an OCR program will help to give us more detail about each picture.
post #127 of 636
Ordered mine on Sunday

Arrived today!

I have never used this in the past or any DVD or blu ray calibration disk so this will be a first.

I had a little trip around the blu ray, but I dont have time tonight..... will have to wait til I have a whole day free to calibrate.

Using it with a Panasonic VT50 and Oppo 103.....I just got 200 hours on the VT50 so I have yet to calibrate it! Itll be interesting to see if theres a difference!
post #128 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_euro2002 View Post

Ordered mine on Sunday

Arrived today!

I have never used this in the past or any DVD or blu ray calibration disk so this will be a first.

I had a little trip around the blu ray, but I dont have time tonight..... will have to wait til I have a whole day free to calibrate.

Using it with a Panasonic VT50 and Oppo 103.....I just got 200 hours on the VT50 so I have yet to calibrate it! Itll be interesting to see if theres a difference!

please let us know how it goes... ordered mine today and complete newbie at this so i hope its easy to figure out!!
post #129 of 636
Messed around with it today, anyone used to the first disc will find things familiar but patterns with a lot more goodies and angles to test performance. I like it, hope to try out the equal energy patterns tomorrow night on my VT50.

If this is your first time with one of their discs, just remember up arrow while a pattern is on screen explains what you are looking at wink.gif, this disc will be intimidating for some.
post #130 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Messed around with it today, anyone used to the first disc will find things familiar but patterns with a lot more goodies and angles to test performance. I like it, hope to try out the equal energy patterns tomorrow night on my VT50.

If this is your first time with one of their discs, just remember up arrow while a pattern is on screen explains what you are looking at wink.gif, this disc will be intimidating for some.

intimidating? thats what im afraid of!! thanks for the up arrow tip... think im going to need it wink.gif
post #131 of 636
First time I ever used Spears and Munsil I did not note the arrow up, really left me disgusted because I did not understand some of the patterns and I needed to read their site. All I ever had before that was DVE. Once I figured out the arrow up thing, I felt like a dumb***, then that disc became my go to.

There are just a LOT of patterns on the new one, but people used to the first disc will appreciate how cool some of the additions are, and helpful.
post #132 of 636
Quote:
intimidating? thats what im afraid of!! thanks for the up arrow tip... think im going to need it

If you have any questions, we will do our best to help you out. Don't be afraid to experiment. e.g. When you put up the contrast pattern, turn the contrast control all the way and then all the way down to really see what happens.
post #133 of 636
Thats the best thing, once you really get a feel for these patterns you can do great evaluations and really see what settings work and what do not, or which ones make things worse.
post #134 of 636
thank you all... appreciate the info. will be back when i receive my disk!
post #135 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

My PS3 is set to YCbCr (its 4:4:4) with Superwhite enabled.

so u tested and determined that the PS3 has superior upsampling than your TV ?

- M
post #136 of 636
just a note to those with the PS3... by looking at various color clipping and ramp patterns I was getting horrible blue banding with super-white off (and a bit with red too)... also, the xvYCC pattern indicated that processing was active in the display chain (PS3 to Samsung TV via HDMI, receiver not connected)

I tried turning deep color off from the default 'automatic'... no difference whatsover

I then turned super white on... zero banding for blues and reds and xvYCC processing no longer going on... the only downside to this was that my whites became very pink since that's the first color to clip on my Samsung LED-LCD TV (I had calibrated only to 235 and so now I needed to lower contrast and redo offsets/gains)

the interesting part is that even if I drive contrast to max on my display, as long as super white is on, there's no banding, and no xvYCC processing going on.... turning super white off seems to engage xvYCC and really messes up blue transitions (horrible banding and blue clipping pattern showed an actual gap between bars near 235 and bars near 253.... in other words, I saw bars near both ends of the clipping pattern but not in the middle... very strange indeed
post #137 of 636
I noticed some weird artifacts on certain patterns today, mainly the bias light 10% and 15% ones:




Notice the weird diagonal stripes against the black background. What could be causing this?



Also, the following pics are of the 'Contrast Blue' test pattern, which appears perfectly normal but the two pics in the help article for it have obvious distortions (horrid banding/striping in the 'incorrect' section and a weird dot pattern in the 'correct' section):








Keep in mind all pics were taken with super white on in YCbCr 4:4:4 mode on the PS3 (deep color off) and contrast set to 255:

post #138 of 636
Quote:
Notice the weird diagonal stripes against the black background. What could be causing this?

Those stripes are part of the pattern. This is something Alan Brown wanted in the bias light pattern.
Quote:
Also, the following pics are of the 'Contrast Blue' test pattern, which appears perfectly normal but the two pics in the help article for it have obvious distortions (horrid banding/striping in the 'incorrect' section and a weird dot pattern in the 'correct' section):

The dots are an artifact that is in the help image. We use the menu system for the help, like the last disc, which is limited to 8-bit, which is a lot less than 24-bit you normally see. Its a limitation of BDMV menus.

The banding is also in the incorrect image as something you may see on some displays. e.g. If you have a Panasonic VT20 and select standard mode, you will see that type of banding in the image. I also saw that banding on a recent JVC projector. I don't recall the model number. On the Panasonic, you can make it go away by select THX or custom, I believe.
post #139 of 636
so everything's normal then? may I ask what the diagonal stripes are for?

regarding contrast blue, that makes sense but I didn't see the same effects on contrast red and contrast green, which is why I thought something was off
post #140 of 636
Quote:
turning super white off seems to engage xvYCC

If you clip >235, in YCbCr, the concentric rectangles will be visible in the xvYCC box. This does not mean xvYCC is active. I thought we mentioned that in some of the help notes.
post #141 of 636
Quote:
so u tested and determined that the PS3 has superior upsampling than your TV ?

The PS3 only offers YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB. You can't select 4:2:2 YCbCr. The display that I have it plugged into does poorly with any 4:2:2 input. If you look at the nearest neighbor examples in our color space article, this is what you see on screen.

I would never send RGB into any non-computer display. The first thing that display does is convert back to YCbCr for processing and then back to RGB. I would rather avoid the double conversion that is lossy.
post #142 of 636
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

I would never send RGB into any non-computer display. The first thing that display does is convert back to YCbCr for processing and then back to RGB. I would rather avoid the double conversion that is lossy.

Exept Pioneer 9 Gen KURO's which do their processing and performs better when you send RGB 16-235.
post #143 of 636
so i'm wanting to get started in diy calibration. all of the threads show primarily using the 709 disc or something similar. is there anything wrong with using this new version 2 or the older version in which I have. I thinking something like calman 5 with the i1dpro.
post #144 of 636
Disc owners,how are the equal energy patterns?

Have you've gotten a great calibration result from them and if so could you post your charts please.
post #145 of 636
What is the APL of the windows equal energy patterns???? 50%??

Are there 75% saturation 75% intensity equal energy window patterns?
Edited by JimP - 5/3/13 at 11:22pm
post #146 of 636
Hi

If some of you overseas are still having problems trying to order the new version I might be able to send you one if you are willing to pay
$35
paypal fees
actual shipping fees (depending where you are and how fast etc you want it)

I have a copy I literally just got but I think I will just get it professionally calibrated instead.

If anyone interested PM me!!!
post #147 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

The PS3 only offers YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB. You can't select 4:2:2 YCbCr. The display that I have it plugged into does poorly with any 4:2:2 input. If you look at the nearest neighbor examples in our color space article, this is what you see on screen.

I would never send RGB into any non-computer display. The first thing that display does is convert back to YCbCr for processing and then back to RGB. I would rather avoid the double conversion that is lossy.

Stacey, have a couple follow up questions regarding that...

(1.) --- I edited this question, as some terminology was incorrect ----

The article on your website regarding color space and chroma subsampling (which btw is a very good read !) and your reply seem to state that TV's always convert to RGB and then display the image in RGB.

Now, what about TV's that cannot display RGB or YcbCr 444 ? Some user's have posted (after testing specific RGB images with their TV) that their TV's can only handle YCbCr 422, as the test RGB images were not displayed correctly... So following your logic, is it correct to assume these TV's convert the direct in RGB test image to YCbCr 422 and then back to RGB ending up displaying a test image that does not display correctly anymore (double conversion and rounding introduced errors) ?

(2.) How could I test if my TV does (or does not) convert a direct RGB signal first to YCbCr and then back to RGB (like you stated in your reply) or simply takes the RGB signal and displays it w/o converting ? How do you verify that these conversions take place ?

If my TV - which is a VT50 fed by a PS3 set to YCbCr 444 - would take and display a direct RGB signal (w/o converting to YCbCr and then back to RGB) I could avoid one additional conversion in the signal chain...

Thanks !

- Mike
Edited by Iron Mike - 5/4/13 at 1:31am
post #148 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

Stacey, have a couple follow up questions regarding that...

(1.) --- I edited this question, as some terminology was incorrect ----

The article on your website regarding color space and chroma subsampling (which btw is a very good read !) and your reply seem to state that TV's always convert to RGB and then display the image in RGB.

Now, what about TV's that cannot display RGB or YcbCr 444 ? Some user's have posted (after testing specific RGB images with their TV) that their TV's can only handle YCbCr 422, as the test RGB images were not displayed correctly... So following your logic, is it correct to assume these TV's convert the direct in RGB test image to YCbCr 422 and then back to RGB ending up displaying a test image that does not display correctly anymore (double conversion and rounding introduced errors) ?

Mike,

All TVs display 422, 444, and RGB, as that's part of the HDMI spec. However, what they don't all do it display them without losing something from internal processing on the signal. For example, on the BenQ projector I just had here, with 4:4:4 it did Bilinear sampling, and with 422 or RGB it did nearest neighbor. You'll also see them lose chroma information by doing that conversion incorrectly. Everything winds up at RGB in the end, but getting there correctly is the issue. On the new disc, you can use the Color Space patterns to see if they clip at a certain point, and if chroma alignment is correct. You can also use a variety of chroma wedges and bursts to see if high frequency chroma data is lost with certain colorspace inputs.
Quote:
(2.) How could I test if my TV does (or does not) convert a direct RGB signal first to YCbCr and then back to RGB (like you stated in your reply) or simply takes the RGB signal and displays it w/o converting ? How do you verify that these conversions take place ?

Use the test patterns mentioned above. The big issue isn't that they convert, but that so many do it wrong. If they all perform the same, then you use any one of them, though most people would say to use 422 if all else is equal.
post #149 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

All TVs display 422, 444, and RGB, as that's part of the HDMI spec. However, what they don't all do it display them without losing something from internal processing on the signal.

okay, so following your logic, if a TV is fed a RGB test image and that image is displayed incorrectly, then we do know that (a) one or more conversions took place, the TV did convert to YCbCr and then back to RGB (as Stacey stated), and did not directly display the RGB image and (b) there were errors in the conversions, ending up in a faulty display of the RGB test image...

would you agree ?

Thanks !

- M
post #150 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Quote:
Notice the weird diagonal stripes against the black background. What could be causing this?

Those stripes are part of the pattern. This is something Alan Brown wanted in the bias light pattern....

Here is what I suggested for this test pattern:

"There could ideally be additional varying shadow detail in the dark part of the pattern to supplement the PLUGE provided. This would give the viewer additional steps and image components for peripheral judgement of preserving shadow detail with the biasing illumination in use."

In some cases, additional fine tweaking of the "brightness" (black level) setting may be desirable after the biasing illumination is implemented and adjusted. The presence of low level ambient light in a dark viewing environment has an affect upon the perception of black floor and subtle shadow detail. The human visual system can take as much as a half hour to fully adapt to dark room conditions. There are electro-chemical changes that occur in the retina over such a period of time. Professional mastering technicians are instructed to allow for this time to adapt to the tightly controlled viewing environment maintained in such work spaces before working on a video program. Such attention to detail can pay off for predominantly dark programs, such as the recent 'Lincoln' movie. This is also common in digital radiology reading rooms where subtleties of gray scale variations are critical when doctors examine x-rays of soft tissue. Perhaps this kind of information could be added to S&M's program notes on their web site to handle future inquiries about these two test patterns.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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