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Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark Blu-Ray 2nd Edition - Page 21

post #601 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

not in Lightspace. You profile the display only once. From that profile data you can then create different LUT's with Gamma of 2.2 | 2.3 | 2.4 | etc. - LUT creation takes maybe 5 secs. Store in different slots in your LUT box.

If you don't use 3D LUT's, I guess you would have to calibrate each input on your TV for a different target.

I understand there is a lot of accuracy and capability out there with all the software and 3D Box capability but what is the use if we have to rely on checking to see if we get too dark blacks or washed out whites.?

Certainly LS would be useful for quick gamma value production but what value this Display accuracy if we cannot reproduce the source to the same degree of accuracy?
post #602 of 636
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

not in Lightspace. You profile the display only once. From that profile data you can then create different LUT's with Gamma of 2.2 | 2.3 | 2.4 | etc. - LUT creation takes maybe 5 secs. Store in different slots in your LUT box.

If you don't use 3D LUT's, I guess you would have to calibrate each input on your TV for a different target.

I understand there is a lot of accuracy and capability out there with all the software and 3D Box capability but what is the use if we have to rely on checking to see if we get too dark blacks or washed out whites.?

Certainly LS would be useful for quick gamma value production but what value this Display accuracy if we cannot reproduce the source to the same degree of accuracy?

The purpose is to follow as closer as we can the calibration method they are using at post-production falicities, so we use 17-Point Cube Profilings (4.913 Color Points) because they using the same Cube Size there too (at granding monitors).

Also as better meter you use , you will get even closer.... At post-production monitor profilings, they are mainly use Klein Colimeters (but Konica-Minolta CS-200/CA-310 too) and PhotoReasearch Spectros mainly (but JETI also).
Edited by ConnecTEDDD - 12/23/13 at 2:46pm
post #603 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

I understand there is a lot of accuracy and capability out there with all the software and 3D Box capability but what is the use if we have to rely on checking to see if we get too dark blacks or washed out whites.?

Certainly LS would be useful for quick gamma value production but what value this Display accuracy if we cannot reproduce the source to the same degree of accuracy?

I think you're over thinking it.

Get the colors accurate. That's the most important part, and that's in your control.

Getting the gamma equal to what the content was mastered on is pretty much impossible, as we don't know the source. If in doubt, use Rec 709 2.2.

So - as an example - if you get your screen calibrated with a Rec 709 2.2 3D LUT and u then watch a movie that was mastered in Rec 709 2.3 or maybe even BT.1886, it will still be a much more enjoyable experience than watching the same movie on an uncalibrated screen ! wink.gif
post #604 of 636
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

I understand there is a lot of accuracy and capability out there with all the software and 3D Box capability but what is the use if we have to rely on checking to see if we get too dark blacks or washed out whites.?

Certainly LS would be useful for quick gamma value production but what value this Display accuracy if we cannot reproduce the source to the same degree of accuracy?

You can check here some 1D LUT (1-Point CMS) vs. 3D LUT Comparison screens to get an idea of the correction points you are correcting using the Display's Internal Controls vs. using External LUT Box/Processor.
post #605 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

I think you're over thinking it.

Get the colors accurate. That's the most important part, and that's in your control.

Getting the gamma equal to what the content was mastered on is pretty much impossible, as we don't know the source. If in doubt, use Rec 709 2.2.

So - as an example - if you get your screen calibrated with a Rec 709 2.2 3D LUT and u then watch a movie that was mastered in Rec 709 2.3 or maybe even BT.1886, it will still be a much more enjoyable experience than watching the same movie on an uncalibrated screen ! wink.gif

Exactly how I think because of my inability to control my ambient light at certain times of the day but I am consistently told that calibration is all about accuracy rather than 'somewhere near'.

Perhaps having a non ideal viewing area is acceptable after all in much the same way as having a non ideal Blu Ray source appears to be?
Edited by PE06MCG - 12/24/13 at 1:53am
post #606 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

I think you're over thinking it.

Get the colors accurate. That's the most important part, and that's in your control.

Getting the gamma equal to what the content was mastered on is pretty much impossible, as we don't know the source. If in doubt, use Rec 709 2.2.

So - as an example - if you get your screen calibrated with a Rec 709 2.2 3D LUT and u then watch a movie that was mastered in Rec 709 2.3 or maybe even BT.1886, it will still be a much more enjoyable experience than watching the same movie on an uncalibrated screen ! wink.gif

Exactly how I think because of my inability to control my ambient light at certain times of the day but I am consistently told that calibration is all about accuracy rather than 'somewhere near'.

Perhaps having a non ideal viewing area is acceptable after all in much the same way as having a non ideal Blu Ray source appears to be?
Define "acceptable."
post #607 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Define "acceptable."

Thanks for reply,

I am just trying to find a compromise that allows me to feel comfortable with the variables my viewing experience has to accommodate.
I should have a bat cave environment but cannot afford it, I should have a source that gives me a known gamma value and apparently that is also uncertain.

Unfortunately my attempts will result in the non compliances cancelling themselves out or doubling the variation from accurate.
I intend using my Day / Night gamma values to assess the Blu Rays rather than use them exclusively for ambient light use. Suggested by Ted elsewhere on the Forum.

Is that a reasonable plan George?
post #608 of 636
Why does your ambient light keep changing? Dimmer lights?
post #609 of 636
Sun comes up, sun goes down, clouds come and go wink.gif
post #610 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Define "acceptable."

Thanks for reply,

I am just trying to find a compromise that allows me to feel comfortable with the variables my viewing experience has to accommodate.
I should have a bat cave environment but cannot afford it, I should have a source that gives me a known gamma value and apparently that is also uncertain.

Unfortunately my attempts will result in the non compliances cancelling themselves out or doubling the variation from accurate.
I intend using my Day / Night gamma values to assess the Blu Rays rather than use them exclusively for ambient light use. Suggested by Ted elsewhere on the Forum.

Is that a reasonable plan George?
Define "reasonable." OK, just kidding.......sort of. Perfection and the ideal are worthy goals, but a mature appraisal of the challenge recognizes they are rarely obtainable. A lot more effort, finances, expertise, advanced instrumentation, etc., were devoted to the space shuttle program and they still lost two crews.

What is "acceptable" and "reasonable" is for you to decide, and you only. We have reference targets in display system performance. Each of us desiring to get the most beautiful and authentic program reproduction is limited by effort, finances, expertise, advanced instrumentation, etc. Usually no one dies if we can't attain absolute perfection, except on screen.

Never forget that this is all for the sake of entertainment. Entertainment is supposed to relieve stress, provide diversion from the burdens and mundaneness of life. I care about image fidelity because of the rewards that come from it. My reward is related to the love I have for cinematic art. The pursuit of excellence always has limits. You get to decide what those limits are for you- what is acceptable and reasonable for you.
post #611 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

I intend using my Day / Night gamma values to assess the Blu Rays rather than use them exclusively for ambient light use. Suggested by Ted elsewhere on the Forum.

Is that a reasonable plan George?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

Sun comes up, sun goes down, clouds come and go wink.gif
post #612 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post


I intend using my Day / Night gamma values to assess the Blu Rays rather than use them exclusively for ambient light use. Suggested by Ted elsewhere on the Forum.

yes, the memory names are just labels, could be Memory A, Memory B, Wife, Husband, it doesn't matter. a Day labeled memory doesn't do anything different with the same settings in a Night memory (for those displays with the ISFccc / Pro mode interface). Some models do have a memory isf Auto and that will be different.

You use one memory for B&W for E5430K, another for 709 with whatever gamma you want | one memory for 601, another for 709 | owners across the pond with PAL.. etc etc.. flexible and one of the benefits I've promoted over the years starting with the Pioneers ISFccc Interface.

they are just labels.
Edited by turbe - 12/24/13 at 2:59pm
post #613 of 636
Has anyone completed an advanced calibration on a plasma display using the equal energy windows using Chromapure or Calman? Please post your experience.
Edited by H Stevens - 1/12/14 at 3:07pm
post #614 of 636
Just an idea that I initially thought was implimented by the hdmi bus and interface for HD. Why not have the source (BD player, etc) inform the display (HDTV) via the data channels of the HDMI bus of what colour space, gamma, etc is being used, perhaps a light sensor on the tv to adjust the L according to the ambient lighting.

All of that technology is in front of us, why not connect the dots together so that we can all see the big picture. There is 4k technology now, but yet specs for HD are only being introduced but not necessarily implemented, high def flat panels have been around for a good couple of years, it is dissapointing that support for the technology was not there initially and is only starting to take effect. BT1886 was introduced 2011, still not being fully utilised. It is a crying shame that such a great potential is taking so long to get off the ground. With all due respect, I wish the public were more aware of this confusion that is plagueing the digital world, knowing that their prime HDTV is not delivering their favourite movie/tv show in the way that it should be because of broadcasters/ mastering houses doing what they please as well as the tv manufacturer's. A bit of bad publicity concerning the above issue would, I am sure, speed up the progression towards having the correct standards in place and properly utilised.

A tip to any tv manufacturer's reading this post, produce a tv that is pre calibrated for all colour spaces and any other that you can think of, and still the ability to add any but give the user/owner who buys the display all of the control tools necessary for adjustment, but still allowing to distinguish the different callibrations by proper labelling of the controls.

My 2cents worth.
post #615 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan2011 View Post

Just an idea that I initially thought was implimented by the hdmi bus and interface for HD. Why not have the source (BD player, etc) inform the display (HDTV) via the data channels of the HDMI bus of what colour space, gamma, etc is being used, perhaps a light sensor on the tv to adjust the L according to the ambient lighting.

In that way the mastering houses could master to what rec/standard they prefer, the broadcasters to their preference. The tv manufacturer's would of course have to provide facility for the different specs/recs and the ability to calibrate to them. Then when a source eg bd disc is encode with rec 709 gamma bt1886 the display will get that info from the bd player and switch the colour space and gamma suitable for that encoding automacilly.

I am sure that the HDMI protocol could support this, if not already. So why cant the powers that be sit together and devise a strategy to get something going in practice to close the loop for all to enjoy.
post #616 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan2011 View Post

Just an idea that I initially thought was implimented by the hdmi bus and interface for HD. Why not have the source (BD player, etc) inform the display (HDTV) via the data channels of the HDMI bus of what colour space, gamma, etc is being used, perhaps a light sensor on the tv to adjust the L according to the ambient lighting.

All of that technology is in front of us, why not connect the dots together so that we can all see the big picture. There is 4k technology now, but yet specs for HD are only being introduced but not necessarily implemented, high def flat panels have been around for a good couple of years, it is dissapointing that support for the technology was not there initially and is only starting to take effect. BT1886 was introduced 2011, still not being fully utilised. It is a crying shame that such a great potential is taking so long to get off the ground. With all due respect, I wish the public were more aware of this confusion that is plagueing the digital world, knowing that their prime HDTV is not delivering their favourite movie/tv show in the way that it should be because of broadcasters/ mastering houses doing what they please as well as the tv manufacturer's. A bit of bad publicity concerning the above issue would, I am sure, speed up the progression towards having the correct standards in place and properly utilised.

A tip to any tv manufacturer's reading this post, produce a tv that is pre calibrated for all colour spaces and any other that you can think of, and still the ability to add any but give the user/owner who buys the display all of the control tools necessary for adjustment, but still allowing to distinguish the different callibrations by proper labelling of the controls.

My 2cents worth.
Your suggestion is not new or unique. It has been demonstrated throughout recent consumer TV history that there is not enough interest in image fidelity among mass-market consumers to justify the substantial cost of implementing such capabilities in HDTVs. The closest example I'm aware of to what you propose is Dolby Labs' PRM4220. It's a 42" LCD that debuted at $40k and currently sells for $30k, last I checked.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
post #617 of 636
Thanks for the reply George, that is a heavy price to pay for a tv that closely resembles that of a crt, it's no wonder the mass market don"t have much interest. What is your opinion on the HDMI interface regarding the switching of colour space, gamma, etc from info that could be coded onto the bd? After all EDID is present, all it will take is a little extra data, surely the cost implications would not be that dear, and in my opinion was overlooked when in design stages.
post #618 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan2011 View Post

Thanks for the reply George, that is a heavy price to pay for a tv that closely resembles that of a crt, it's no wonder the mass market don"t have much interest. What is your opinion on the HDMI interface regarding the switching of colour space, gamma, etc from info that could be coded onto the bd? After all EDID is present, all it will take is a little extra data, surely the cost implications would not be that dear, and in my opinion was overlooked when in design stages.
"Closely resembles...a crt,:" is an extremely shallow appraisal of its value, performance, and capabilities. I don't know enough about the details of how the HDMI handshake works to have an opinion on the specifics you propose. If you are serious about the issue, you could go to this other site and contribute: http://hdmiforum.org/ .
post #619 of 636
Just checking: are the "Equal Energy Gamut" patterns 100%, 75%, 50% and 25% luminance/stimuli but always 100% saturation?
post #620 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

Just checking: are the "Equal Energy Gamut" patterns 100%, 75%, 50% and 25% luminance/stimuli but always 100% saturation?

yes
post #621 of 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

yes
Thanks. And what is recommended stimuli to calibrate against? 100% seems less likely, right? But what about 75% vs 50%?
post #622 of 636
Usually 75%
post #623 of 636
New to calibration. Which patterns can I use for 11-step white balance adjustment? I want to order the disc right away. Thanks.

Edit: Nevermind, the Masciors disc will do the trick.
Edited by Pres2play - 3/4/14 at 4:35pm
post #624 of 636
Hi,

I've run into a few issues trying to calibrate with Spears & Munsil 2nd edition disk. I'm pretty new to this but believe I have a decent grasp on the basics.

Here's my setup:

Bell Fibre Op HD box (local cable provider, HD and SD channels) connected via HDMI to Oppo BDP-103D Bluray player.
The Oppo uses an optical out to my Yamaha receiver (it's old, no HDMI. Will be replaced in near future).
Oppo connects via HDMI to my Benq W1070 projector.
My screen is 158 inches.
(I also frequently use my Oppo to stream content from my PC using Plex, the content could be SD, 720p or 1080p)


I put the Spears & Munsil in the Oppo and start with the first tests. Right away I'm a bit confused because I dont know if I should be calibrating the projector or the Oppo.

It seems like I have to change settings in both as some exist in the Benq while others are in the Oppo and then there are some that both of them have!

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to properly do this now.



If I make changes on the Oppo, will that also affect the picture from the Fibre Op cable box that I'm feeding through the Oppo?

I did not turn Darbee on yet, figure I'll calibrate everything before setting that.




What i'd like to know is what I should set on the Benq and/or Oppo before I start the calibration ("cinema" on benq, 4:2:2 on oppo, gamma 2.4? on benq, as examples).

Once I start calibration, which settings do I change on the Benq and which on the Oppo (or even, which settings need to be adjusted on both!).



Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide on this! I really want to get this looking great so I can justify all this to my wife, so far she is skeptical and keeps reminding me of the 30 day return policy for the Oppo...

Shawn
post #625 of 636
Quote:
I put the Spears & Munsil in the Oppo and start with the first tests. Right away I'm a bit confused because I dont know if I should be calibrating the projector or the Oppo.

Its usually best to calibrate the display. I would leave the player at its default and just adjust the display.

What displays on the player do you want to adjust that are not on the projector? Outside of Darbee. Not a fan of what Darbee does, but I do like the video smoothing, which seems to only work on SD content. To see it in action:

1. Select scaling under Advanced Video -> SD Evaluation -> Scaling.
2. Turn on demo mode on the player and set video smooth to +3.

Demo mode will put you into split screen with I believe processing on the left and no processing on the right. You can see how smoothing fixes up SD content nicely.
post #626 of 636

Thanks, I managed to figure out what was wrong. I set the benq to PC instead of Auto and it showed me all the white I was missing and also stopped clipping some colors. I still cant get the BTB to work I believe beause I can't see the black squares in that color test. I see all the others (but not the yyCR or whatever it's called hehe).

 

 

I set the video smoothing to +4, it does improve SD nicely.

 

I have my darbee turned on at 60% right now to see how I like it. So far, when watching HD content it does look good.

 

 

Thanks

post #627 of 636
Does someone knows how to use this disc to evaluate and adjust my settings for 3D? which pattern helps you to adjust the pop out or the depth or it depends of tv and you cant do a thing? how do you know the 3d look the way it supposed to be?

I have the 55UT50 Panasonic plasma tv and the bluray player Panasonic BDT230.

thanks in advance
post #628 of 636
Should I change my current picture settings to Default before using the disc?
post #629 of 636
Hope I can get some feedback on my problem. I have a new HT with an Oppo BDP-103, Denon X4000 and JVC RS64. The setup is in a dedicated fully dark room. I only have about 5 hours on the PJ, and tried the S&M calibration disk today. I first made sure that the Oppo and Denon video settings were all 'Off' so they did not change the signal, and have all PJ 'enhancement' type settings off - pretty much per the book.

My problem is with contrast. I cannot see the white bars beyond about half way across, even with contrast on the PJ turned all the way down. I also cannot see the dark box in the middle of the colored squares. I have tried changing the picture mode on the PJ (my default is 'Cinema') and the Oppo color space (tried 'Auto' and '4:2:2', but couldn't see any difference. I'm obviously a first-time calibrator, so don't know what else to try. The picture looks pretty good on all sources that I have tried - BD, DVD, DTV 1080i, Amazon Instant Video, etc. if I leave contrast at the default '0', but not very good at all if I reduce contrast to maximize the white bars (-40 or more). I don't know if it is related, but I also cannot see the two left hand bars in the brightness test, no matter how I have set the contrast.

Any suggestions are welcomed!
post #630 of 636
It sounds like the pj or oppo is limiting below black and above white ie. level 16(black0, level 235(white). I am not familiar with either the oppo or jvc but check in both the setup menu for settings referring to white or black level settings as either limited or full, toggle them and check contrast and brightness again.
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