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Official JVC DLA-RS46 / DLA-X35 owners thread - Page 46

post #1351 of 2087
Gotcha, how would I find a good pro? Local Home Theatre store?
Edited by mijotter - 11/6/13 at 1:01pm
post #1352 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

You would need something like an i1 Display Pro (i1D3) and software such as Chromapure (my choice) or Calman. I'm not sure if the free HFCR supports the i1D3, but I found HFCR was much harder work to use especially for the all important gamma calibration.

You will also need a not inconsiderable amount of time and effort to learn and understand the process, so it may still be worth choosing a Pro if you aren't prepared to take that much time and effort.

The newer versions of ColorHCFR do support the i1D3, and it's free. It's still a work in progress, but there is active development on it now, and I'd go so far as to say that I currently prefer using it to Calman because of the automated measurements that I'm able to do with a PC as the test pattern generator. I think Kelvin1965S is correct in that the early versions were not that great, but there has been so many improvements made over the last year or so, that it's now worth a second look.

My advice would be to buy an i1D3, and play with ColorHCFR. If you want to get more advanced, and end up with something similar to Kelvin1965S' setup with a 3D LUT, you can achieve this with a HTPC and the free ArgyllCMS and madVR tools. All of that for just $250 sounds pretty cheap to me!
post #1353 of 2087
Sounds like it's moved on a bit since I last used it (and so has Calman as I found that was too fiddly/unintuitive at the time as well), but obviously once you've found something that works well it doesn't' make sense to go out looking for alternatives, hence I wasn't sure about if HFCR supported the i1D3.

Regarding finding a Pro calibrator, I believe there is a section in the calibration sub forum. I know there is one on the UK forum (where I'm based), so I'd probably not recommend going to a shop since you could chose by recommendation on here.

The HTPC/ArgyllCMS approach sounds like it would give a similar effect to what I get with the Lumagen Mini3D (linked to Chromapure for automatic calibration, which makes things even easier). I've not followed the HTPC route for some time now as I found I spent more time reformating my HTPC than actually watching it smile.gif (I'm sure they are a lot more stable these days, but again I've stuck with what works for me).
post #1354 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Gotcha, how would I find a good pro? Local Home Theatre store?

Anywhere but Best buy:)

Check out the calibration forum here.
Post your location there. Many calibrators travel to different cities. The ones that post here are very reputable.
post #1355 of 2087
I'm really concerned guys. Ive done tests and it is not the cords. AVR or Bd. But even transformers just has a lot of noise and grain. I brought my brother over who has owned projectors before and even he said a lot scenes look no better than a Dvd. The grain and noise kind of dance and move around. I hope I did not get a dud as I'm we'll beyond the 4 lamp hours.

Granted I'm currently projecting onto a smooth primed wall. I just don't see the theatre paint I bought getting rid of all that noise and gain. I could be wrong though. Is there something I'm missing?

I put the Dvd of transformers in and it honestly looks the exact same az the bluray. I know the player up converts it but still.
post #1356 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

I'm really concerned guys. Ive done tests and it is not the cords. AVR or Bd. But even transformers just has a lot of noise and grain. I brought my brother over who has owned projectors before and even he said a lot scenes look no better than a Dvd. The grain and noise kind of dance and move around. I hope I did not get a dud as I'm we'll beyond the 4 lamp hours.

Granted I'm currently projecting onto a smooth primed wall. I just don't see the theatre paint I bought getting rid of all that noise and gain. I could be wrong though. Is there something I'm missing?

I put the Dvd of transformers in and it honestly looks the exact same az the bluray. I know the player up converts it but still.

Either in an email to me or here, please list what you tried. Looking to find out how you connected up and what was used. Here is what I know:

118" diagonal 2.35
110" diagonal 16:9
Painted wall
9.6' seated distance.
Sony 5100 BD player
Pioneer 1222K AVR
Cinema mode is used on RS46
Not calibrated, but you have made some light tweaking to color temp and gamma.

What HDMI cable is used when connecting BD player directly to projector? Brand, model and length of cable? Have you tried a white sheet or white piece of paper to confirm that the grain is not from the painted wall?
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post #1357 of 2087
When I hooked up the BD straight to the Projector I used a 6 foot Mediabridge HDMI cable. I also hooked the BD straight to the PJ using the 30 foot Monoprice with Redmere HDMI that is it in the ceiling with exact same results. My brother and I did try hanging a white bed sheet and there was SLIGHT improvement but that could be from the picture getting soaked in the cloth and hiding the imperfections because the picture was not as bright or vibrant as well I don't know.

I'm sanding my screen wall today to get it as smooth as I can then going to paint the theatre paint as that needs to happen regardless. I really do hope that fixes it...

I'm also going to have my brother bring his BD player over with his HDMI cord. After that I will hook my BD player with my cord up to his Plasma TV, which will rule the BD as the culprit or take it out of the equation. At that point it'll be either the wall or the Projector.
post #1358 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

When I hooked up the BD straight to the Projector I used a 6 foot Mediabridge HDMI cable. I also hooked the BD straight to the PJ using the 30 foot Monoprice with Redmere HDMI that is it in the ceiling with exact same results. My brother and I did try hanging a white bed sheet and there was SLIGHT improvement but that could be from the picture getting soaked in the cloth and hiding the imperfections because the picture was not as bright or vibrant as well I don't know.

I'm sanding my screen wall today to get it as smooth as I can then going to paint the theatre paint as that needs to happen regardless. I really do hope that fixes it...

I'm also going to have my brother bring his BD player over with his HDMI cord. After that I will hook my BD player with my cord up to his Plasma TV, which will rule the BD as the culprit or take it out of the equation. At that point it'll be either the wall or the Projector.

You can also place several sheets of copy paper on the wall and see if you see the same problem.
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post #1359 of 2087
I will try that as well Mike and report back.
post #1360 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

I will try that as well Mike and report back.

In my email to you yesterday, I reminded you to make sure that all processing is off in the AVR and BD player. In the AVR, make sure that video enhancement controls are set completely off/bypass. Same with any BD scaling. In the projector, make sure CMD is turned off, keystone is off and any sharpness/enhancement controls are off or at their lowest level. Set HDMI to Standard, not Enhanced.
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post #1361 of 2087
The discussions regarding white walls and tents etc. got me thinking again about what I'm doing with my setup, and how I've been looking at ways to improve the picture quality with different screen options / paints / coatings. I realise that this is not exactly the correct thread for this post, but it is related to JVC projectors in general, and I have an RS46, so that means there is some relevance.

As I mentioned before, my viewing distance is pretty close, and I'm particularly irritated by screen textures such as sparkling from screens with much in the way of gain. To be clear, I'm not ruling out screen changes, but I've found myself coming to the following conclusions:

  • The viewing environment has an enormous impact on the performance of the system, and changes to the screen can improve things... but only so much
  • You can dramatically improve the performance of the system by reducing reflections in your room, and there are permanent and tempory solutions for this
  • It seems to be much more difficult to improve performance by rejecting reflected projection light, than rejecting ambient light
  • The latest versions of Silver Fire seem to offer an amazing balance of dark (relatively) neutral grey, and reasonable gain
  • As gain is increased, viewing cone and/or hot spotting also increases. Silver Fire is a good compromise in these areas but the sparkles at my viewing distance are still objectionable to me

By its nature, ambient light usually stays constant, whereas reflected light levels are constantly changing according to what's on screen. It's not too difficult to calibrate a display for ambient light, because the light hitting the screen at black areas stays consistently elevated. Choosing where to set the black point at for an image with no ambient light, but also no control over reflections is very difficult, because the black point will be constantly changing!

I have a feeling that some of the more expensive 'retro-reflective' screens like the Black Diamond might be able to deal with reflections better because they're able to block diffuse light coming from a different angle than the projector, but they're prohibitively expensive and have their own shortcomings.

Last night then, I decided to tackle the issue head on, and started some light control in my living room...

I'd seen some posts discussing light control previously, and one mentioned a black deep pile rug from IKEA, so that was my first stop. I ended up buying everything I needed in IKEA, including black canvas curtains and steel wire curtain track. The total came to ~$145, which I didn't think was too bad:


I hung the curtains so that they can be gathered into the corners of the room when not in use, and pulled out as needed. I still need to have the curtains shortened to better fit the wall, but the photos below show the point.

Open and Closed shots:




Some close ups of the curtains:


I'm planning to add some curtain that pulls out a few feet over the top of the screen, but with the ceiling being so high, I don't think it will have much of an improvement to be honest, and that's a project for another day.


I was a little disappointed to find that ANSI contrast ratio improved by only 50%, but the perceived image quality improvement is dramatic! Keep in mind that Silver Fire was only able to increase ANSI contrast by 50% on it's own, and with side effects that I found un-desirable. The biggest remaining issue is my cream coloured sofa, and there really isn't much I can do about that in the short term.

After reading through my post, I noticed that I haven't mentioned that I only view at night, when there is no light coming in through the windows. My light control here is only intended to reduce reflections from the screen, and not to block out any daylight that might be present in the day. I realise that the bright window shape on the screen in some of the photos shows that this solution is not working at all for blocking the daylight out!
Edited by nezil - 11/7/13 at 4:27pm
post #1362 of 2087
many thanks and have you considered SONY HW50?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezil View Post

Well yes and no... I'm currently in the same situation as you, though my ceiling is 12' high and therefore probably has less effect.

Because of reflected light from your walls and ceiling, you'll notice that the lower picture levels (shadow detail) will become more and more crushed as the average picture level increases. The X35 / RS46 does have a 'Black Level' setting that raises the lowest black level in an attempt to combat this effect, and this is actually quite a good approach to maintaining shadow detail if you have bright walls or ambient light present, but you simply won't get the contrast ratio that JVC projectors are famed for.

The best way to demonstrate this is to compare the On / Off vs ANSI contrast measurements. In my home, the On / Off is basically infinite, because my meter just can't manage a reading for a totally dark screen. ANSI contrast is a whole different story, because it's average picture level is 50% (a checker board of black and white squares). Even with zero other lights present, my contrast ratio drops to a pitiful 65:1! If the average picture level were higher, the on-screen contrast ratio would be even worse.

I'm currently using a Black Out Cloth screen, and I've been looking at different paint mixes to try and improve the situation. I've tried Silver Fire, which is popular on these forums, and found that it increases my contrast ratio by about 50%, which is impressive, but the side affect of this is visible sparkles at my viewing distance, and a very slight blue push (which could be calibrated out). I did find that Silver Fire does also have a bit of a viewing cone / hot spotting effect, but this is just another side effect to the gain it provides and I don't think it would be obvious when viewing. All in all, I found Silver Fire to be a very credible screen paint, particularly for ambient light viewing, but so far, not for me.

My next attempt will be to try a neutral grey paint, and I've done some very preliminary testing here which shows a roughly 10% improvement in ANSI contrast ratio at N8. This of course also results in a lower peak luminance, but doesn't shimmer or hot spot at all.

I do intend to also try a Black Widow mix, which from all of the reading I've done, should sit somewhere between a neutral grey and Silver Fire in terms of performance, and have less visible sparkling.

Another cheap solution is to have black velvet curtains that you pull around the sides when viewing, and I'm now considering that as an option. I believe that Kelvin1965S had done some tests with a black material 'tent' that he created because his living room was lighter coloured. I've seen some photos in other threads, and I think he had some data on the results as well. My living room is brighter white than his, but his information might be helpful.

I realise that I'm not really answering your question directly, so I'll try to be more concise...

If you don't do anything about your white walls, you'll either have to live with poor (and variable!) on screen contrast, or pay big money for a high end screen like a Screen Innovations Black Diamond which should be more selective in what light it absorbs, and what light it reflects.
post #1363 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by fightclub View Post

many thanks and have you considered SONY HW50?

Of course, but a few things swayed me toward the JVC...

  • Better 2D image due to the better native contrast ratio
  • Motorised lens shift - allows me to use a CIH 2.35:1 screen
  • Price - The Sony appears to be price protected, and though it includes other accessories that might initially seem to bring the two prices closer, there just seems to be lower prices for JVC equipment in the market

I was told that there were really three projectors to consider at this price point, with the following strengths:

  • Epson 5020 <- Brighter image (best for ambient light viewing and 3D)
  • JVC <- Higher native contrast ratio (best for 2D image quality)
  • Sony <- Great all rounder (Brighter than JVC, great colour out of the box)

For many people, the Sony will be the better choice, but I really wanted to get the best image quality, and only a great native contrast can achieve that.

This discussion started however because your viewing environment has white walls, and you're wondering what impact this will have on the JVC image quality. The impact here will be the same for any projector, but perhaps more obvious for a JVC which has such a great black level.

One solution for reflected light rejection is simply to raise the black level of the projected image, so that it is higher than highest level of reflected light that will hit back on the screen. Depending on your environment, this level might be really very high, resulting in a terrible picture. Using a projector that has a poor black level might actually be better in this case than the JVC, because it's black level is already naturally higher, and out of the box might look better than the JVC!

JVC projectors do have a setting for Black Level, and it's included in the installation menu for a reason... it's related to your viewing environment. Even on its highest setting though, the JVC black level is still pretty low, and will probably not be high enough for a viewing area with a lot of bright reflective surfaces.

My advise would be to do something about the viewing area first, as this will improve any projector and screen combination far more than the projector and screen can on their own.
post #1364 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezil View Post

This discussion started however because your viewing environment has white walls, and you're wondering what impact this will have on the JVC image quality. The impact here will be the same for any projector, but perhaps more obvious for a JVC which has such a great black level.

One solution for reflected light rejection is simply to raise the black level of the projected image, so that it is higher than highest level of reflected light that will hit back on the screen. Depending on your environment, this level might be really very high, resulting in a terrible picture. Using a projector that has a poor black level might actually be better in this case than the JVC, because it's black level is already naturally higher, and out of the box might look better than the JVC!

JVC projectors do have a setting for Black Level, and it's included in the installation menu for a reason... it's related to your viewing environment. Even on its highest setting though, the JVC black level is still pretty low, and will probably not be high enough for a viewing area with a lot of bright reflective surfaces.

This won't work very well as there isn't 'one' level of reflected light. The amount of relfected light changes all the time depending on the brightness of the scene. The brighter the scene the more reflected light in the room. In very dark scenes there are almost no reflected light and then a raised black level setting will really degrade and wash out the image.

If you have ambient light in the room however, no matter the scene there will be a basic black level that the room sets and then the black level setting can be used to increase shadow detail without further washing out of the image.
Quote:
My advise would be to do something about the viewing area first, as this will improve any projector and screen combination far more than the projector and screen can on their own.

Absolutely!
post #1365 of 2087
Thanks again! Due to family reason, i am afraid that i will not be able to change much on the environment of this this living room. What i will do:
1. buy the best curtain to block the outside light;
2. watch movies at night.

If like this, which one is better for movies, HW50 or JVC x35? Someone says, even in such environment, x35 is still better; someone says x35 may be too dark? In China, x35 is 25% more expensive than HW50.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezil View Post

Of course, but a few things swayed me toward the JVC...

  • Better 2D image due to the better native contrast ratio
  • Motorised lens shift - allows me to use a CIH 2.35:1 screen
  • Price - The Sony appears to be price protected, and though it includes other accessories that might initially seem to bring the two prices closer, there just seems to be lower prices for JVC equipment in the market

I was told that there were really three projectors to consider at this price point, with the following strengths:

  • Epson 5020 <- Brighter image (best for ambient light viewing and 3D)
  • JVC <- Higher native contrast ratio (best for 2D image quality)
  • Sony <- Great all rounder (Brighter than JVC, great colour out of the box)

For many people, the Sony will be the better choice, but I really wanted to get the best image quality, and only a great native contrast can achieve that.

This discussion started however because your viewing environment has white walls, and you're wondering what impact this will have on the JVC image quality. The impact here will be the same for any projector, but perhaps more obvious for a JVC which has such a great black level.

One solution for reflected light rejection is simply to raise the black level of the projected image, so that it is higher than highest level of reflected light that will hit back on the screen. Depending on your environment, this level might be really very high, resulting in a terrible picture. Using a projector that has a poor black level might actually be better in this case than the JVC, because it's black level is already naturally higher, and out of the box might look better than the JVC!

JVC projectors do have a setting for Black Level, and it's included in the installation menu for a reason... it's related to your viewing environment. Even on its highest setting though, the JVC black level is still pretty low, and will probably not be high enough for a viewing area with a lot of bright reflective surfaces.

My advise would be to do something about the viewing area first, as this will improve any projector and screen combination far more than the projector and screen can on their own.
post #1366 of 2087
I put in the Disney WOW calibration disc and everything on the JVC was working properly and spot on. However one thing I did notice was the alignment of the red lines. The blue are perfect, the red is slightly to the left of the white line in the test. In the center of the image everything lines up and all I see is the white line. However if i move to the right the red slightly moves to the right across the screen and vice versa for the left side. The blue stays put where it should be. I tried adjusting in pixel alignment but at only 1 increment it just put the red line on the OTHER side of the white line. If it was in .5 increments that would line up perfect. Is this a fault or is it how it is?
post #1367 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

I put in the Disney WOW calibration disc and everything on the JVC was working properly and spot on. However one thing I did notice was the alignment of the red lines. The blue are perfect, the red is slightly to the left of the white line in the test. In the center of the image everything lines up and all I see is the white line. However if i move to the right the red slightly moves to the right across the screen and vice versa for the left side. The blue stays put where it should be. I tried adjusting in pixel alignment but at only 1 increment it just put the red line on the OTHER side of the white line. If it was in .5 increments that would line up perfect. Is this a fault or is it how it is?

Sounds like a little chromatic aberration which is normal. The only way it might improve is using less lens shift or a longer throw, both of which put the image more in the center of the lens. Are you liking the picture more now? There can be somewhat of a break in period as the bulb ages in the early hours.
post #1368 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by fightclub View Post

Thanks again! Due to family reason, i am afraid that i will not be able to change much on the environment of this this living room. What i will do:
1. buy the best curtain to block the outside light;
2. watch movies at night.

Watching at night will only help so much, and in fact will make the impact of your white walls all the more apparent. Are you absolutely sure that there is nothing you can do? Have a look a few posts back at what I achieved with $140 and one evening's work. The results were a huge improvement over just white walls like I had before.

If you're going to buy a curtain anyway (which will probably not even be needed if you're only watching at night), make sure to buy a black one (ideally velvet), as this will also help to eliminate reflections from that part of the room.

Quote:
If like this, which one is better for movies, HW50 or JVC x35? Someone says, even in such environment, x35 is still better; someone says x35 may be too dark? In China, x35 is 25% more expensive than HW50.

Give that the JVC is more expensive, I would only ask one question. Do you plan to use a 2.35:1 CIH (scope) screen, or just regular 16:9? The JVC has motorised lens shift, which makes it significantly more applicable to scope screens, whereas the Sony is manual.

Although the JVC does have better 2D image quality than the Sony, it's only very slightly better, and you'll only ever be able to really get the benefit of that in a light controlled room, which you don't have.

If the Sony is cheaper, and it's slightly brighter, which might help you to use a darker screen to combat reflections, ambient light and with 3D. If I were you, I would probably be leaning that way.

...I'm not you however, and I'd still go with the JVC & a scope screen, then make some simple, low cost, reversible, and family acceptable changes to my room.
post #1369 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezil View Post



Although the JVC does have better 2D image quality than the Sony, it's only very slightly better, and you'll only ever be able to really get the benefit of that in a light controlled room, which you don't have.

If the Sony is cheaper, and it's slightly brighter, which might help you to use a darker screen to combat reflections, ambient light and with 3D. If I were you, I would probably be leaning that way.

...I'm not you however, and I'd still go with the JVC & a scope screen, then make some simple, low cost, reversible, and family acceptable changes to my room.

agreed, and this is what i advised him in another thread. if he can't control the room enough to take advantage of the jvc's lower black level, then he's not going to see any appreciable benefit and he'll be paying extra for nothing.

at least the benefits of the sony(brighter image, better motion) can be appreciated without good light control.

i also agree, it would be a good idea to pair it with a grey/silver screen.

i think the real problem is that both projectors are so good, no matter what. he'll always be wondering if he made the right choice. i say flip it around, accept that you can't make a bad choice. either projector will work very well, and look as good as your room allows. when i first got my jvc, i had white ceiling, and light tan colored walls in my room, and it still blew me away. but noticing that there was no difference between projector black and no content(think watching a 16:9 image on a scope screen and comparing black on the 16:9 to the black bars on the sides) made me realized i could get an even better picture with some more room treatments. i have finally reached a level where i can cast 'hand shadows' on a pure black screen again, so i'm pretty confident my room is taking advantage of most of the jvc's potential.
post #1370 of 2087
Although have not seen x35 but really could not resist the temptation. So just order the x35 and need wait for 3 weeks.
post #1371 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezil View Post

The discussions regarding white walls and tents etc. got me thinking again about what I'm doing with my setup, and how I've been looking at ways to improve the picture quality with different screen options / paints / coatings. I realise that this is not exactly the correct thread for this post, but it is related to JVC projectors in general, and I have an RS46, so that means there is some relevance.


I hung the curtains so that they can be gathered into the corners of the room when not in use, and pulled out as needed. I still need to have the curtains shortened to better fit the wall, but the photos below show the point.

Open and Closed shots:




Some close ups of the curtains:


I'm planning to add some curtain that pulls out a few feet over the top of the screen, but with the ceiling being so high, I don't think it will have much of an improvement to be honest, and that's a project for another day.


I was a little disappointed to find that ANSI contrast ratio improved by only 50%, but the perceived image quality improvement is dramatic! Keep in mind that Silver Fire was only able to increase ANSI contrast by 50% on it's own, and with side effects that I found un-desirable. The biggest remaining issue is my cream coloured sofa, and there really isn't much I can do about that in the short term.

After reading through my post, I noticed that I haven't mentioned that I only view at night, when there is no light coming in through the windows. My light control here is only intended to reduce reflections from the screen, and not to block out any daylight that might be present in the day. I realise that the bright window shape on the screen in some of the photos shows that this solution is not working at all for blocking the daylight out!

That seems to be a good solution.

I have a question concerning those curtains.............are they reflective at all? I have been struggling with getting non-reflective curtains for our HT. We have about 400 hrs on our JVC X35 that went live in May 2013 and could not be happier with the PQ.

Good Luck!
post #1372 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezil View Post

I'm planning to add some curtain that pulls out a few feet over the top of the screen, but with the ceiling being so high, I don't think it will have much of an improvement to be honest, and that's a project for another day.

Have you addressed the back wall?

That wall faces the screen directly and if it lights up during PJ action, it is certainly affecting your PJ image.
post #1373 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by majek 60 View Post

I have a question concerning those curtains.............are they reflective at all? I have been struggling with getting non-reflective curtains for our HT. We have about 400 hrs on our JVC X35 that went live in May 2013 and could not be happier with the PQ.

Good Luck!

They're not 100% light absorbing, and velvet would be better. Velvet is however much more expensive, and apparently very difficult to sew. The curtains that I used are more like a canvas sort of material, and certainly not glossy in any way.

There is a noticeable drop in reflections when the curtains are in the appropriate location, especially in the day when there is ambient light present. Although I don't view anything in the day, it's interesting to see how much of a difference the curtains make in daylight conditions.

I have since bought some additional material to make a short sort of false ceiling to pull out along with the curtains. I used Jo-ann fabrics Home Essentials Solid Onyx fabric for this, which is almost identical to the IKEA curtain material - You might want to check out that fabric if you're interested in reflectivity Majek 60.

Quote:
Have you addressed the back wall?

That wall faces the screen directly and if it lights up during PJ action, it is certainly affecting your PJ image.

I haven't addressed that no, and I realise that this does have an impact. The problem is that the back of the room is not a flat wall, and it's also the entrance to the room. The further the distance from the screen though, the less the effect is likely to be. I'm more concerned about the white sofa that is just 7 feet away from the screen, the next surface in that direction is double the distance away.
post #1374 of 2087
I had great difficulty choosing between a JVC RS46 and Panasonic AE8000. They are close in price but this was a secondary concern. I was reasonably satisfied with my previous AE7000 but was extremely disappointed in Panasonic's warranty service. I was able to have both the AE8000 and RS46 together to compare.

Setup:
136" Carada Criterion 2.35:1 screen (roughly width of 144" 16:9/1.78:1 screen)
13' Viewing Distance
Panasonic AE8000
JVC RS46
Canon 50D, Identical exposures for comparison photos

Here are my findings:

JVC RS46
Pros:
Black Level
Sharpness
Pixel Convergence

Cons:
Visible Lens Light Leak on 2.35:1 screens with 1.78:1 image
"Screen Door Effect" can be faintly seen on light images 136" 2.35:1 @ 13'
Bit of Image/Lens smearing visible in high contrast specific scenarios

Panasonic AE8000
Pros:
Lens Memory Functionality
No Lens Light Leak
No Visible "Screen Door Effect"
Bright

Cons:
Convergence
Uniform Focus
Black Level


A word of warning to my fellow CIH screen owners: If you buy the JVC, you must use masking panels for 1.78 images. The Lens Light Leak is easily visible on the unused screen space when displaying 1.78:1 content on a 2.35:1 screen on anything other than very bright images. It isn't visible when in 2.35 mode and the 'leak' is off screen.

Regarding Lens Memory: The Panasonic handles this much better than JVC RS46. With the AE8000, you manually set the Lens Shift. After that, everything is electronic. The Panasonic will electronically zoom out, focus and move the 2.35:1 image to the top of the image sensor, 'grouping' the black bars at the bottom. Its a simpler, superior and much faster implementation of Lens Memory. It also ensures that ZERO light from the projector is above the screen. The JVC mechanically moves the lens for each memory setting. It is noisy and slow, and quite honestly, with frequent moving parts, I'm a bit concerned with long term longevity.

3D: 3D was horrendous on my (previous) original and replacement Panasonic AE7000, crosstalk was terrible and I got instant headaches. I'd say the AE8000 and RS46 are very similar in terms of 3D quality, both are much better than my previous AE7000, but they have a long way to go to be comparable to IMAX or RealD in a movie theater. The AE8000 is definitely brighter, but it isn't better. I noticed flicker on both. I am completely comfortable watching 3D on my JVC RS46 in ECO lamp mode with the Iris all the way open in 136" 2.35:1.

Summary:
The RS46 looks pretty great and the black levels are much better than the AE8000, this really showed when looking for shadow detail. I could see things on the JVC that were simply black on the Panasonic. I wasn't able to achieve even focus across the entire image on the Panasonic, the JVC was much better with this, although not perfect. There is not a convergence option with the Panasonic, there should be. Panasonic's "Smooth Screen" works, pixels are far less noticeable on the AE8000...if only they were in focus and converged a bit better. Lens Memory works just fine on both, I personally much prefer Panasonic's implementation. 3D seemed similar on both, but the added brightness helped the Panasonic, although I was just fine with the 3D brightness of the JVC.

My final decision: I'm choosing the JVC RS46, although I see some pixelation during light scenes at 136" the image is sharp. I cannot see any pixelation whatsoever when wearing 3D glasses or in 1.78:1. I'm currently making masking panels for 1.78 mode.

Comparison Photos:
Identical exposures for comparison photos.

I did some minor tweaks to the picture, and I did NOT calibrate the images. ECO Lamp Mode on both, Brightness set -8 on Panasonic, 0 on JVC with Iris at 0, Cinema 2 on Panasonic, Cinema on JVC.

The colors looked a bit 'punchier' on the Panasonic, I cycled through picture modes to find something to subdue the Panasonic or 'pop' the JVC, no dramatic change. This could be calibration or just the nature of LCD vs LCOS.

Comparing Pixelation and clarity:



Comparing Pixelation and clarity:



Viewing at 13':



Black Levels:



Shadow Detail:



Image Clarity:



Shadow Detail:



Shadow Detail:



White Uniformity



Black with Pause Button (Notice vertical 'smearing' on JVC)



Focus Test (Near outside edge, as clear as possible in center of screen):



Focus Test (Near outside edge, as clear as possible in center of screen):



Visible Lens Light Leak with 1.78 Black Image on 2.35 screen. (Lower right corner of image. More noticeable to the eye)

Edited by Dreamliner - 11/12/13 at 6:13pm
post #1375 of 2087
^^^^
Nice job. Even looking on my cheap PC monitor the sharpness, shadow detail and better skin tones are quite obvious in favor of the JVC.eek.gif
post #1376 of 2087
Quote:
Nice job. Even looking on my cheap PC monitor the sharpness, shadow detail and better skin tones are quite obvious in favor of the JVC.

+1. Great little test and report !!
post #1377 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajvandenb View Post

^^^^
Nice job. Even looking on my cheap PC monitor the sharpness, shadow detail and better skin tones are quite obvious in favor of the JVC.eek.gif

He did say they PJs were not calibrated, so I don't know if it's fair to compare shadow detail and skin tones.
post #1378 of 2087
I guess the comparison means nothing then wink.gif
post #1379 of 2087
I’ve had a RS45 for nearly the past 2 years. It ended up dying on me and JVC, after a couple months of back and forth, finally replaced it with a RS46. The projector sits in a cabinet I built that is attached to the ceiling. In the cabinet the projector sits level, which of course causes most of the image to be projecting onto the ceiling. I use the vertical shift to maneuver the image down onto screen, this requires 40” or more of vertical shift. I am able to get a very nice square image to fill my 120” screen but when I get the middle of the image focused (using the focus screen with the word FOCUS in the middle) everywhere away from the center of the image is a bit blurred. The green FOCUS grid doesn’t honestly look much out of focus compared to the word FOCUS in the middle, but when I’m watching any type of video the image is noticeably blurred around the periphery of the image. I noticed it actually at first when I turned the volume up/down and the volume display came up on the bottom of the screen and I saw just how blurred the volume indicator was. I never had this issue on my RS45. So my question on this is, am I causing this by shifting the image so far down vertically? If so should I simply use the 2 back retractable legs on the projector to angle the projector itself down a little bit to reduce the amount of vertical shift I am having to use (not sure that would actually fix it)?

 

Another observation I made, and my wife made as well last night. The RS46 colors seem very under-saturated compared to the RS45. I didn’t have a professional calibration on the RS45, simply used the Spears & Munsil Calibration Blu Ray which at best only helps with the  brightness/contrast of the image. So It’s not as if I had a vast difference in out of the box image quality on my RS45 (don’t get me wrong I did tweak it some using the Spears&Munsil and it looked noticeably better than out of the box defaults). Looking at the RS46’s image I don’t think, even after I “calibrate” that the image will have as nice an image as far as color vibrancy. Has anyone else noted similar observations? I ran my RS45 in low lamp mode, with the lens aperture set at -15 to -12. I have the RS46 in low lamp mode and the lens aperture at -12.
post #1380 of 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk576c View Post

I’ve had a RS45 for nearly the past 2 years. It ended up dying on me and JVC, after a couple months of back and forth, finally replaced it with a RS46. The projector sits in a cabinet I built that is attached to the ceiling. In the cabinet the projector sits level, which of course causes most of the image to be projecting onto the ceiling. I use the vertical shift to maneuver the image down onto screen, this requires 40” or more of vertical shift. I am able to get a very nice square image to fill my 120” screen but when I get the middle of the image focused (using the focus screen with the word FOCUS in the middle) everywhere away from the center of the image is a bit blurred. The green FOCUS grid doesn’t honestly look much out of focus compared to the word FOCUS in the middle, but when I’m watching any type of video the image is noticeably blurred around the periphery of the image. I noticed it actually at first when I turned the volume up/down and the volume display came up on the bottom of the screen and I saw just how blurred the volume indicator was. I never had this issue on my RS45. So my question on this is, am I causing this by shifting the image so far down vertically? If so should I simply use the 2 back retractable legs on the projector to angle the projector itself down a little bit to reduce the amount of vertical shift I am having to use (not sure that would actually fix it)?

 

Another observation I made, and my wife made as well last night. The RS46 colors seem very under-saturated compared to the RS45. I didn’t have a professional calibration on the RS45, simply used the Spears & Munsil Calibration Blu Ray which at best only helps with the  brightness/contrast of the image. So It’s not as if I had a vast difference in out of the box image quality on my RS45 (don’t get me wrong I did tweak it some using the Spears&Munsil and it looked noticeably better than out of the box defaults). Looking at the RS46’s image I don’t think, even after I “calibrate” that the image will have as nice an image as far as color vibrancy. Has anyone else noted similar observations? I ran my RS45 in low lamp mode, with the lens aperture set at -15 to -12. I have the RS46 in low lamp mode and the lens aperture at -12.

Something is not right. You state that you are using 40" + of vertical lens shift. If you screen is 120" diagonal 16:9, then the max available vertical lens shift is 17". If you have a 120" wide 16:9 screen, then the max available vertical lens shift is 20". 40" of vertical lens shift is impossible, so if you do have the image 40" below lens center, then the projector is not set up properly.
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