Choosing a Point & Shoot over a standard camcorder for video projects, I need your opinions please!

Are you going to be using manual controls; manual focus, aperture, shutter, etc.? Or do you just want high quality video for YouTube at a good price?

If manual control is important to you, I'd say the Panasonic LX7, which does 60p and has a focus ring - shoots excellent video.
Many of the manual features with point and shoots are typically locked down during video. FWIU, the LX7 will allow full manual control including the focus ring for video.

Although it's presently going for $449, Amazon had a Black Friday sale, selling the LX7 for $229 (then $249). You may want to wait and see if goes on sale again for the holidays/December:
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMC-LX7K-Digital-Intelligent-3-0-inch/dp/B008MB719C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354376751&sr=8-1&keywords=panasonic+lx7


If just going to point and shoot for video, the Canon PowerShot SX230 HS shoots 1920x1080/24p at a bitrate of 36mbps (which is unusually high even for a mid-range camcorder). The video quality is very clear and sharp. If you're indoors, you'll probably hear the zoom motor during video if trying to zoom in while recording, but if at a set zoom length and not touching the zoom lever, there is no extra noise.

Although you can adjust and lock exposure before hitting the movie button, there are no other manual controls for video with the SX230 HS - the camera will automatically set aperture and shutter, etc. for you during video.

If you have a an older computer the high bitrate may cause some jutter when playing back on your computer's media player. A more recent computer with decent specs probably won't have that.
YouTube recommends the highest bitrate possible - so the 36mbps would help YouTube videos.
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-PowerShot-Digital-Stabilized-Wide-Angle/dp/B004J3YCGM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354376880&sr=8-1&keywords=sx230

The S100 would be a better choice over the SX230 - but if you want save a little money or even buy a cheaper refurbished version, it's pretty good.

There also other choices - for example Sony makes 60p point and shoot cameras that also shoot nice video for near $300.

"There also other choices - for example Sony makes 60p point and shoot cameras that also shoot nice video for near $300."

Two years ago Sony made an impression in the video world with the HX9V. I bought one and proved to myself it took video as good as my Panasonic camcorder that cost 3 times as much.

The current version is called the HX20V and it has a relative with an extra feature or two called the HX30V.

If my two cameras were lost or stolen, I would immediately log on to Amazon and buy an HX20V for $288. I might not replace the Panasonic.

HX20V at Amazon

Bill
Edited by bsprague - 12/1/12 at 8:34am

I was impressed with the HX9V when it came out - what are the improvements with the HX20V?
Can you do manual mode in video?

Hi Weegsta - You've gotten some good advice here - but if your budget is $300, you might want to consider the HX20V's big brother.

The 2012 Digital Camera Info Best of the Year Awards calls the high-priced Panasonic FZ200 the "Best Point and Shoot for Video" - but the runner up was the affordable $298 Sony HX30V ($275 used at Amazon Warehouse Deals).

This amazing behind-the-scenes video of a Greenpeace aerial photo shoot was produced with this little camera: https://vimeo.com/52335763 (caution - one airsickness scene).

Hope this is helpful,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution

I don't have one and won't until my HX9V dies.

On another forum there were links to some YouTubes by various people that compared them side by side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbB7IWNwExQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXNm11JVCrc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYFl6Hj0yD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4CyHMP63Do

Generally, they seem to show a little brighter color, the camera is a little quicker, there are a few more megapixels and the menus have some new creative features. I don't think anyone used to a 9V would be at all disappointed if they "upgraded" to a 20V. Sony doesn't appear to have taken anything away. Note that the HX10V did take away 1080p!

I don't know if you can do manual mode in video. One of the videos shows a new feature that allows you to "adjust" the automatic mode.

Bill

If you are doing something artistic, like short films, music videos, etc. - the manual controls may be more important to get the right exposure, aperture, shutter, etc. using a more measured approach to make it look more professional. But on YouTube, in general, content is the most important thing.

Yeah, the LX7 will be comparable in auto mode. I wouldn't regret getting either one, I just think the availability of manual controls, plus the 60p option (60 progressive frames per second), is just a more desirable choice with the LX7, (at least on paper). It would be a good idea to find a store with a display where you can handle both of them, which helps in deciding. If you have a couple of SDHC cards, you can also format each card separately in each camera and take test footage, watch at home to help solidify your choice. Also watch many videos on YouTube and Vimeo, if available, of each camera as the different image output comes down to a personal preference.

You may also want to budget for a tripod and extra batteries. If a point and shoot, the ebay batteries - typically 3 for $10 are safe. I'd be more cautious with third party camcorder batteries. I know you are limiting your budget to $300...what I have found from personal experience is that if unnecessary purchases are consciously avoided, for example, eating at a diner or going to the movies,,,another hundred bucks can be scraped up possibly put towards something better and/or pay for accessories.

A camcorder will probably lasts longer (down the line) as there isn't a mechanized lens popping in and out.
Also consider a camcorder in that price range. There was just a recent sale on the Canon HF M500 - which is a very decent camcorder and was going for $299 (now $349):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/838772-REG/Canon_M500_VIXIA_HF_M500_Full.html

Probably will be on sale again. It's not going to give you manual controls like a DSLR but it does have a pro sensor inside and very good image stabilization. There will surely be other decent camcorders on sale in the holiday season at that price point.

B&H is having a sale on the Panasonic G3, a micro four-thirds camera that takes removable lenses (this one includes a lens) for $299:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768477-REG/Panasonic_DMC_G3KK_Lumix_DMC_G3_14_42mm_Lens.html

Again, that one won't have manual controls at least not yet...I say not yet because there is a hack for the G3 now to get higher bit rates with a promise for a future hack to have manual controls for video.
Here is a video from hacked G3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKbaII0IqDU

Another point and shoot choice is the Sony HX20V which shoots 60o and has great image stabilization (see Bill's post above mine) $288 @ Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Cyber-shot-DSC-HX20V-Digital-3-0-inch/dp/B006K551WQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354406034&sr=8-1&keywords=Sony+HX20V

It does have some manual control, just not full manual control. Those Sony's also have very good build quality.

I would do some more research and wait as there will definitely be sales in December and you can decide the best options/time to buy.
Edited by xfws - 12/1/12 at 3:56pm

Bill,

The only difference between the little brother and the big brother is "WiFi sharing". I think the idea is to link to your iPhone for posting to Facebook or emailing grandma! It may even be able to talk to a Sony TV through Sony's PlayMemories Home software. The downside seems to be that the battery can be working a little harder in the big brother if you forget to turn the WiFi off.

The Other Bill

Bill,

Enjoyed the video. I got to fly one of those a couple times when I worked for Cessna. They appear big and boxy, but they fly like a trainer with an automatic transmission. The newest ones have awesome navigation gear made by the people that make car navigation -- Garmin.

On topic, there certainly is nothing wrong with the video taken with the small camera.

The Other Bill

Those comparisons appear to be based on specifications, not performance. In good light, I know that the Sony P&S cameras like the Hx20 take really good video, at 60p. 24p on the Canon is not a good frame rate for taking videos where there is much movement (and movement is the point of video)

But you say you are interested in low-light. And here is a problem: the HX20 has a small-aperture lens; this will make it difficult not to take noisy pictures in low light. That is not helped by the fact it has small pixels (high pixel density) - lots of pixels packed onto a relatively small sensor. Even the RX100 and the Canons, while they have large aprtures at full wide angle, quickly go to small apertures at normal (not wide angle) focal lengths.

Mid-level camorders have fast lenses through a wide range of focal lengths (starting at f1.5 or f1.8, as opposed to f3.2 on the Sony) and have smaller pixel densities. They have better *video* performance in low light and produce sharper video and more accurate color in all light.

Do not be fooled - a P&S camera is a compromise for video. The video is very good, but the dim light performance is particularly compromised.

The LX7(with its f1.4 lens) appears to be a better choice for low light among the P&S's, and here is what is said in the digitalcamera.com review about low light prowess: "Such performance is extremely rare in still cameras, and is closer to what we might expect from an expensive camcorder." Note that top-class P&S is not camorder class. And, the sharpness is considerably below mid-level camcorders.

You want excellent video in good and dim light, with lots of flexibility and better sound - get a mid-level camcorder. You want excellent pictures and good video, get a P&S.

Any of those three are a good choice. $249 is s great price for the S100.

Whatever you get, it helps the quality a lot if you "lock exposure" before hitting the video button as it makes the exposure more even throughout the video clip.

Otherwise, you get inconsistent exposure and it can be distracting when the lighting randomly changes. It should mention how to lock exposure in owner's manual. Camcorders can typically do this but many of these mid-range point and shoot also have that ability.

"Any of those three are a good choice. $249 is s great price for the S100."

Sorry - no. The S100 can only shoot 24p at full HD (according to the specifications). That is not a good frame rate for most video (when there is either camera or subject movement).
Yes, big-screen movies are shot at 24P, and they work very hard around the limitations of 24p.

24p cams look fine to me on YouTube. Maybe the OP will see the same.

I agree that the OP can decide, but then how about a link to a 24p video (converted btw to 30p by youtube always) with sports action? or kids running around? or moving cars? Flowers or mountains will look fine in 24P.

Mark,

In his first post, the OP said he is on a tight budget and his goal is to shoot for YouTube. I'm reading that his goals are to match or beat the quality he sees on favorite YouTubes from other P&S cameras, not spend too much money and, perhaps be able to fit it in his pocket.

Also, remember that P&S cameras get to go where video cameras don't. I was at a University of Washington football game and pulled out my video camera. It was a few short clips later that a guard told me to put it away. So I got out the HX9V and got some good video. I was on a cruise ship where they said there was to be no "video taping" of a performance. Since the HX9V doesn't use tape and doesn't look like a camcorder, I got a few good clips of a fabulous pianist. I don't do concerts, but I'm told that can be a problem too. I also can get better video at both family and tourist events when I use the "little" camera. People dislike seeing camcorders pointed at them more than little cameras, especially when I'm a tourist.

The usefulness of a camera/camcorder can go beyond technical and performance measuring specifications. You and I have disagreed on that before.

Are you sure the OP won't find the S100 or HX30V more suitable to his purpose than a more expensive camcorder?

I vote for the HX30V because it is 1080p60 capable.

Bill

Bill, I agree as you know, that the small P&S cameras are really great, and allow you to take great videos in a lot of circumstances. I have also used the Hx9v to shoot football and baseball (it is one of my most popular Vimeo videos!).

But the tenor of the posts appears to be that there is nothing lost using a P&S or even an RX100 for video, which is untrue. As you know, people other than OP's read these threads (as they should). They should not be misled that camcorders somehow are made obsolete by P&S cameras with video. Similarly, just for the record, DSLRs with video also do not beat camcorders in many dimensions.

And 24p would not be suitable for any sports video, so the Canon S100 is not a good choice for video. The Canon is limited to 24p in full HD; it is not just a neat option (it cannot do 108060i let alone 60p).

I guess I should have stuck with my initial suggestion to go with the LX7. I came across it on Black Friday and was surprised no one had been talking about this cam.

I used the Canon SX230 HS/also 24p..the video is sharp as a tack. As OP mentioned the S100 is on sale and has great reviews.

I know what you're saying about 60p's advantages and it comes through on YouTube even though they display at a lower frame rate. To me, I think the 24p is passable. If I become conscious of it I can see the blur - but I think *99.9999999999% of people will not know to look for it. (*Actually stats may vary. )

It may depend on what OP is mostly using it for. Sometimes the live look of 60p doesn't mesh well in something like a music video/short/artistic endeavors as we are conditioned to see that lower frame rate blur in such pieces. Seems OP is on a budget, don't know if he has editing software or is considering getting it. Another consideration is whatever software he is using supports 60p.

I definitely agree with you on LX7 is the best - especially because manual controls for video including lens ring... but S100 would definitely not be a train wreck.

I am surprised too the LX7 gets overlooked. That $299 price was a steal.

Mark,

I can't tell you how much I enjoy that comment.

Two years ago I found this forum and was trying to buy a TM900 as my first "starter" camcorder. I think you may have been partly responsible. On my own, I moved to a SDT750 because it seemed to clone all of the TM900 parts, features and specs but was heavily discounted because of the somewhat weird 3D attachment lens.

About 6 months later an HX9V thread started. I think you were even the OP!, I could not believe what you and others wrote. The "tenor" was that it was a fantastic video camera that fits in the pocket. I couldn't believe that the $350 camera could begin to compare to my new $1400 (list) Panasonic. To try to prove you wrong, I bought one. I took both cameras to Maui and spent two weeks working at identifying the differences. I took careful notes and used both cameras to shoot everything from swarms of swallows to ocean waves. I was planning to make a thread out of it where I could prove that the HX9V was not anywhere equal to the TM900/SDT750 . I got home and compared the 1080p60 files on my 55 inch TV with a WD TV media player I bought for the job.

My project ended up proving you were right! The differences in 1080p60 tourist clips were so marginal that I had no fuel for a thread. After I got them loaded on the media player I had to check the file names to tell which camera produced which video.

So, here I am blaming you for using the "tenor" of that outdated thread that talked me into spending $330 (on sale) for what became my favorite video camera.

Not only that, the HX9V is my granddaughters' favorite as well. When we were at a family reunion we teamed up. They argued over who got which camera. They both wanted the HX9V. Each granddaughter took a camera and videoed an elder telling the family history. My job was "director' with extra batteries. I'm not sure why, but but in many cases the clips from the cheap camera in the hands of the 10 year old are a lot better than the clips from the expensive camera in the hands of the 12 year old. (Editing three hours of raw family history clips with two cameras into a watchable video is a brain buster!)

So, when you say "there is nothing lost using a P&S or even an RX100 for video, which is untrue.", I can only respond by saying there are things that can be gained as well. I like my RX100 because the video is close enough to "excellent" the photos are marvelous and it fits in my pocket. Perhaps my HX9V takes better videos, but the photos are not as good. The SDT750 does not fit in my pocket at all, takes terrible shots of people because they all frown when they see a "video camera" and does not hide will when I'm in public places.

BTW, thank your for providing the "tenor" that suggested great video can come from a P&S even though, technically, it shouldn't. As i said, without you and that thread, me and my granddaughters would not have had nearly as much fun learning video.

Bill

PS: You almost had me locked into a GW77 until I spent my money on the RX100 for the photo quality.
Edited by bsprague - 12/2/12 at 9:31am

Her is my $0.02.
From my personal experience with Panasonic FZ150, Sony RX100 and Panasonic V700. I shoot 1080 60P mostly.
First two are great video cameras as long you DO NOT shoot moving objects - from kids running to cars moving.
You will get videos with "strobing" effect. (not smooth movement). you can reduce it (not 100%) shooting manually and matching stutter speed with the frame speed.
There is no way you can shoot video of moving train simular to one in the link you provided.
I do record kids sport such as lacrosee and hockey and finally give up and bougth Panasonic V700 for this type of videos.
Something to consider....

"I have done probably 7 hours of research."

Well, that is not enough. You simply cannot make statements about quality from watching Youtube videos. There are test charts, and there is also an understanding of video theory - frame rates, codecs - and video hardware - sensors, lenses, etc. - that enable one to make informed judgements. As Bill and others have said, video quality using today's hardware is going to be mostly a function of the operator, one who knows especially the limitations of the hardware.

There is no P&S camera that has better resolution than most mid-drange camcorders or better color accuracy or less artifacts; the frame rate of a video has nothing to do with video quality, other than the issue of judder - of course one can take great videos at 24p, if you are careful. No one shoots sports at 24p if they can help it, and notheing beats smooth video at 108060p with the appropriate shutter speed.

The G10 is a great video camera, no question. So whatever you believe you know, choosing that camcorder is fine. And you are correct, P&S cameras can produce very good video, perhaps surprisingly so. But not as good in many dimensions as most camorders (audio being one important area also, where most DSLRs are poor too).

If you didn't catch it, Black Friday and up to a few days ago, the refurbished version of the HF G10 was going for $664.99 at Canon Direct:
http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10051_10051_302534_-1

If you want to wait through the holiday season/December, they might run it again.

Mark wrote that, "There is no P&S camera that has better resolution than most mid-drange camcorders or better color accuracy or less artifacts;"

Sometimes I get to be a videographer. I get to concentrate on video creation. It comes first. Everything else is second. Anybody with me would be there to help make the video. I may not have a script, but I will have thought it through, I have shots in mind and I can try to figure out the details of light and sound. I have time to do my best. I might even have the camera on a tripod but, at least a monopod. I might see scenes where I can be smarter than the camera. Serious editing will probably be required. Unfortunately, those days don't happen very often. Those are fun times and I need to get better at making those opportunities.

Far more often I'm in a more social situation where the people I'm with and what we are doing come first. Video will be a second priority. I don't get to be a vidoegrapher. At best I get a few good clips. If I am at a dinner party, a wedding, a fishing trip, a birthday party or trying to blend in as a tourist in a foreign city, it does not work well to get out the big equipment. Whoever I'm with does not want to have their experience interrupted by me setting up for perfection, or telling them how they will fit into my video. It is important that I use a camera with good automatic settings and good stabilization.

My experience is that the camcorder that fits the first experience does not work well in the second. I took my big video camera to a wedding and discovered some thought me rude. I'm tall, white and big. My big camera makes it worse and I have to very carefully used to avoid the Ugly American Tourist syndrome. With my "quality P&S, I have some nice clips of Italians walking by while I'm sitting on the "husband bench" in front of a shop keeping my wife busy. At a wedding or dinner party nobody seems to mind if you hold up a P&S. After the shot you can put it in your pocket.

On the other hand, the pocket P&S that works well for the second situation can be made to work fairly well for the first (even if a German lab says the lens has problems). The worn out version of this is that "The best camera is the one you (can0 have with you."

If my three cameras were lost or stolen and I found myself on a tight budget, I would buy the best $200 or $300 P&S that would shoot 1080p and fit in my pocket. Today, it would be a Sony HX20V.

An example of getting an HX9V (old version) to work where a "better camcorder" should have been used is: https://vimeo.com/36973087 In this case, it was a day where my brother wanted to show me his gun. It would not have been as good if I hijacked the day into a video event. It turned out "good enough".

Let me start by saying that I am normal every day user with no expertise when it comes to cameras. I started out looking for a video camera that could take descent photos about three weeks ago. I read until my eyes burned and even stayed up over 24hrs once while trying to get the best bang for my buck. I paid for, used and returned four different camera's before I realized that even after all that reading I still didn't know jack about cameras. But I did learn a few things that might help you. First, real camcorders $300 and below are almost worthless in any lighting other than outside and "none" of them do true 1080p. At that price rang it's all scaled up. I gave up on real camcorders after realizing the manufacturer spin the "full hd" line until it's an outright lie. Secondly, pocket camcorders can have great video quality outside, do decent inside under good lighting and are very net/share friendly but still photos suffer or are not present at all. I didn't look at YouTube videos after being educated in this forum about compression, I downloaded as many videos as I could find in their original format and that did it for me. I have no idea how many videos I looked at, but if it was -$300 and made in the last year I'd bet money I looked at a real sample of its footage. My conclusion was the HX20v. The video is cleaner and smoother than any other I looked at in the $300 and below range and even in low light its video kicks ars. Id bet for the money not one camcorder can match it in IQ. Thought this was a good review. http://youtu.be/2uFbyljl_jg The hx20v and hx30v are the same except for WiFi. Just right click save as for a real quality sample. HX30v/HX20v-> http://vimeo.com/52335763/download?t=1356366313&v=125272099&s=681a6ec0bb537e39da85fa541efcc53b For me and my wife its the perfect camera, video for me and stills for her and both in great quality. Hope that helps.
Edited by rpgdude - 12/24/12 at 9:24am

LX7 is down to $299 again: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/880960-REG/Panasonic_dmc_lx7k_Lumix_LX7_Digital_Camera.html
which prompted me to order one. Just a few days ago it was $450-499 everywhere.

The LX7's videos look sharp and brilliantly colorful on Youtube even when played at 360p. That's important to me because most people
do not have powerful enough computers and fast enough internet connections to play at 720p or 1080p without skipping/pausing.

You're forgetting about the Canon M500 for $300. For that price, the low light capabilities are incredible. That was one of the camcorders I mentioned in the other thread.

EDIT
Yes, the LX7 for $300 is also an extremely good deal.