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Which HD **** would be sufficient for MadVR

post #1 of 122
12/1/12 at 10:18am
Thread Starter 
I am wondering if HD 6450 should be fine for MadVR and should I go with nVidia card GT 630 or more powerful like HD 6670. Thanks
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post #2 of 122
12/1/12 at 8:54pm
I'm running an HD6870 and the only thing it can't handle is the highes jinc. I'm using the Intel Quick-sync Decoder for LAV, though, leaving the GPU to do just rendering while the CPU does the decoding.
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post #3 of 122
12/2/12 at 3:52am
Yeah, really the question is what content will you watch and what scaling options do you prefer?

For progressive material (SD and HD 24fps), I have a 6570 and 6670 that do Jinc3/AR (luma/chroma) with playback to 1080P without issue. Will not handle Jinc/AR w/Deinterlacing, however, have turn off AR or back it down to Lanczos or Spline.
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post #4 of 122
12/2/12 at 5:05am
Quite frankly - stick with something cheap - and forget madVR - I'm runnning it on a 65" plasma and 110" projector and I'm damned if I can tell the slightest difference in either HD or SD playback in comparison - pure placebo.
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post #5 of 122
12/2/12 at 5:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Quite frankly - stick with something cheap - and forget madVR - I'm runnning it on a 65" plasma and 110" projector and I'm damned if I can tell the slightest difference in either HD or SD playback in comparison - pure placebo.

What?!? Blasphemy! wink.gif I said something similar months ago and some people questioned my sanity.
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post #6 of 122
12/2/12 at 5:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Quite frankly - stick with something cheap - and forget madVR - I'm runnning it on a 65" plasma and 110" projector and I'm damned if I can tell the slightest difference in either HD or SD playback in comparison - pure placebo.

If you are talking about 1080p Full HD there are no significant differencies
but if you are watching 720p, interlaced material or DVD / SD(.avi) the scaling algorithms can do terrific job.

The auto refresh rate change is a nice feature, too.

My opinion is to buy the most powerfull card you can afford and if you have problems
try some lower settings.
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post #7 of 122
12/2/12 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Quite frankly - stick with something cheap - and forget madVR - I'm runnning it on a 65" plasma and 110" projector and I'm damned if I can tell the slightest difference in either HD or SD playback in comparison - pure placebo.

I really don't understand what this says. Did you do a test using MadVR on SD playback on your 110 inch screen and then the same test without using MadVR on the same screen? Or are you saying that you can't tell the difference between HD and SD playback of the same information on the same screen?
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post #8 of 122
12/2/12 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctviggen View Post

I really don't understand what this says. Did you do a test using MadVR on SD playback on your 110 inch screen and then the same test without using MadVR on the same screen? Or are you saying that you can't tell the difference between HD and SD playback of the same information on the same screen?

he's saying it's all in people's mind and the result isn't worth the effort for most normal folks on most normal set ups.

The only time it begins to make sense is for an ultra critical person in quest of absolute perfection with deep pockets. You will probably need a more robust HTPC, and certainly a higher end display device coupled with a personality type that is obsessive about perfection.

If you don't have those attributes then just play back the movie and enjoy it on your integrated graphics.

That's what I do.

I can't tell the difference unless I look for it. In casual viewing for me it's a non issue so I don't bother.

I have a 3570k CPU in my HTPC and a spare 6870 radeon card so I could easily put it in if I thought I needed it. I stick with integrated CPU graphics cause I really can not tell much difference.
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post #9 of 122
12/2/12 at 10:12am
there is really no reason i can think of not to use madvr if you use windows.
It's free, and you can configure it to be very fast as well as excruciatingly slow, it's sorta your preference.

To answer OP's question, you can make it work either card I think, but the higher end cards would give you more options in the scaling department.
Edited by MlNDBOMB - 12/2/12 at 10:25am
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post #10 of 122
12/2/12 at 10:25am
I originally got MadVR to do frame rate switching but then discovered that it didn't play well with 720p as the HD2000 graphics in my i3-550 weren't up to the task. A $60 GT-430 resolved that issue and then I was able to dial in the frame rate to nearly 23.976 as well with frame skips on the order of many hours. I do notice frame skips when they occur but that doesn't make it a bad thing at all as it doesn't look bad at all. It is the inability of HD2000 to keep up with 720p Live/Recorded TV that was the issue as there were frame skips on the order of 3 or 4 a second which is VERY noticeable.

That said, not using MadVR is a viable option if you don't need automatic frame rate switching or are using XBMC, which I am not. If you go that route you most assuredly are not losing your sanity.
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post #11 of 122
12/2/12 at 10:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

there is really no reason i can think of not to use madvr if you use windows.
It's free, and you can configure it to be very fast as well as excruciatingly slow, it's sorta your preference.

1. Added cost ($-$$$) of discrete graphics card
2. Added heat of discrete card
3. Added hassle
4. Larger case needed for discrete card
5. Potentially larger PSU needed for discrete card

Just a few off the top of my head.
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post #12 of 122
12/2/12 at 10:27am
Agreed but I woudn't go shelling out big bucks just to use it

@mfusick - thanks.

@assassin - yes and I agreed with you then as well lol.

Why has automatic refresh rate switching become so highly rated for madVR use? - xbmc, media portal, mpc-hc natively all do it.
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post #13 of 122
12/2/12 at 10:34am
madvr doesnt require a discrete card. you always had the option of using bilinear for slow gpus, and now you have the dxva scaler too.
and with ivy bridge and trinity, integrated graphics has gotten faster too.
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post #14 of 122
12/2/12 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

madvr doesnt require a discrete card. you always had the option of using bilinear for slow gpus, and now you have the dxva scaler too.
and with ivy bridge and trinity, integrated graphics has gotten faster too.

I understand. But if you want to use all the possible settings in Madvr you need a discrete card. So saying you don't need one at all isn't really accurate.

Still waiting on some screenshots for 1080p and 720p showing the differences. Madshi showed comparison screenshots on non-HD material so I have no idea why this has been so difficult to show for HD material.
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post #15 of 122
12/2/12 at 10:39am
After 3 years using a Popcorn Hour, this past black Friday I finally was able to build my first HTPC. I did setup XBMC following Assassin guides for HD audio bitstreaming, these are my findings:

1. 1080p Bluray (folders) movies look better on the HTPC. This is a huge surprise, because the popcorn is highly regarded for picture quality and I didn't think there were room for improvement.

2. 720p24 TV shows and movies look so much better on the Popcorn. I tried every possible upcaling method in XBMC and it didn't make a difference. Am I doing something wrong? Big dissapointment here.

3. DVD movies ripped to mkv look terrible on the HTPC.The Popcorn is just so much better.

75% of the content I watch is 1080p Bluray movies, 20% 720p24 TV Shows and movies. The problem is that lately I being watching just TV Shows that I obtained using the awesome program called sickbeard.

It seems extremely odd, that a great program as XBMC (that has almost everything you need to enjoy an HTPC) does a such a poor job in the upscaling department.

This is off course just my opinion, but also IMHO you have to be blind not to see the difference. Just remember this comparison is using XBMC and a Popcorn Hour A-200.

Now I need to decide if any alternatives or hardware upgrades are worth my time.

What are the alternatives for an HTPC front end with good integration with MPC-HC?
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post #16 of 122
12/2/12 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by juaniquillo View Post

After 3 years using a Popcorn Hour, this past black Friday I finally was able to build my first HTPC. I did setup XBMC following Assassin guides for HD audio bitstreaming, these are my findings:
1. 1080p Bluray (folders) movies look better on the HTPC. This is a huge surprise, because the popcorn is highly regarded for picture quality and I didn't think there were room for improvement.
2. 720p24 TV shows and movies look so much better on the Popcorn. I tried every possible upcaling method in XBMC and it didn't make a difference. Am I doing something wrong? Big dissapointment here.
3. DVD movies ripped to mkv look terrible on the HTPC.The Popcorn is just so much better.
75% of the content I watch is 1080p Bluray movies, 20% 720p24 TV Shows and movies. The problem is that lately I being watching just TV Shows that I obtained using the awesome program called sickbeard.
It seems extremely odd, that a great program as XBMC (that has almost everything you need to enjoy an HTPC) does a such a poor job in the upscaling department.
This is off course just my opinion, but also IMHO you have to be blind not to see the difference. Just remember this comparison is using XBMC and a Popcorn Hour A-200.
Now I need to decide if any alternatives or hardware upgrades are worth my time.
What are the alternatives for an HTPC front end with good integration with MPC-HC?

So you may benefit from something like Madvr. I would try it especially for your non-HD media.
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post #17 of 122
12/2/12 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

1. Added cost ($-$$$) of discrete graphics card
2. Added heat of discrete card
3. Added hassle
4. Larger case needed for discrete card
5. Potentially larger PSU needed for discrete card
Just a few off the top of my head.

Very true but my case and PSU were already big enough. I agree on added heat but have not seen any ill effects and don't think I will in the life-span of my HTPC either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Agreed but I woudn't go shelling out big bucks just to use it
@mfusick - thanks.
@assassin - yes and I agreed with you then as well lol.
Why has automatic refresh rate switching become so highly rated for madVR use? - xbmc, media portal, mpc-hc natively all do it.

I tried it with HPC-HC but could not get it to work. I don't use the other offerings as I like MB and don't want to spend the time to configure XBMC which I don't think works with WMC extenders. Media Portal doesn't work at all with Copy Protected content or CableCARD tuners so it is out of the question too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MlNDBOMB View Post

madvr doesnt require a discrete card. you always had the option of using bilinear for slow gpus, and now you have the dxva scaler too.
and with ivy bridge and trinity, integrated graphics has gotten faster too.

True. I could update my MoBo and CPU or get a GPU. Getting the GPU was much cheaper.
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post #18 of 122
12/2/12 at 11:38am
With Broadwell/Skylake in 2/3yrs, if Intel is on track with its GPU's, you won't need a dedicated GPU for MadVR at all.
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post #19 of 122
12/2/12 at 12:09pm
Thread Starter 
My other machine specs are Intel Celron G530 dual core and 4 gig Ram, 60 inch Sharp LCD....currently, using built-in video.
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post #20 of 122
12/2/12 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

So you may benefit from something like Madvr. I would try it especially for your non-HD media.

Assassin, I know your point of view regarding the "picture upscaling quality issue" and I understand your main goal is to bring simplicity to the whole HTPC complex setup process, which you do with your guides, but I think your skills will serve well the community if you decide to do a madVR guide.
I tried to follow the 4th option for HD Audio setup in your guides, but the integration with XBMC is just not there, for instance what happen when you stop the movie, you are left with MPC open.

Can you point me in the right direction to setup a better upscaling option in XBMC or other front end solution?

Thanks.
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post #21 of 122
12/2/12 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by juaniquillo View Post

Assassin, I know your point of view regarding the "picture upscaling quality issue" and I understand your main goal is to bring simplicity to the whole HTPC complex setup process, which you do with your guides, but I think your skills will serve well the community if you decide to do a madVR guide.
I tried to follow the 4th option for HD Audio setup in your guides, but the integration with XBMC is just not there, for instance what happen when you stop the movie, you are left with MPC open.
Can you point me in the right direction to setup a better upscaling option in XBMC or other front end solution?
Thanks.

I have a Madvr guide here.

Also Mindbomb has an excellent Madvr guide which I also link from my guide.
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post #22 of 122
12/2/12 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by juaniquillo View Post

Assassin, I know your point of view regarding the "picture upscaling quality issue" and I understand your main goal is to bring simplicity to the whole HTPC complex setup process, which you do with your guides, but I think your skills will serve well the community if you decide to do a madVR guide.
I tried to follow the 4th option for HD Audio setup in your guides, but the integration with XBMC is just not there, for instance what happen when you stop the movie, you are left with MPC open.
Can you point me in the right direction to setup a better upscaling option in XBMC or other front end solution?
Thanks.

Set-up correctly that shouldn't happen. Do you have the 'keys' in mpc-hc set to 'exit' on stop. Options\Keys\Exit - set as MEDIA_STOP (don't worry that 'stop' is already using the same command, they can co-exist quite happily. If you have already done that - post your playercorefactory file here and we'll have a look at what's going on.
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post #23 of 122
12/2/12 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I have a Madvr guide here.
Also Mindbomb has an excellent Madvr guide which I also link from my guide.
Ooops, my bad. It's in the Beta Section. Great, I'll check it soon. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Set-up correctly that shouldn't happen. Do you have the 'keys' in mpc-hc set to 'exit' on stop. Options\Keys\Exit - set as MEDIA_STOP (don't worry that 'stop' is already using the same command, they can co-exist quite happily. If you have already done that - post your playercorefactory file here and we'll have a look at what's going on.
Thanks, I'll try tonight.
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post #24 of 122
12/2/12 at 5:06pm
OK, 2 more questions, I looked everyehere on the forum here and on Anandtech an there's no answer. I got a i3-3220 (just because it was $19 more than a celeron on black friday), since the only thing I'm really missing/interesting on is to upscale 720p24 content:

1. Is the i3-3220 enough to upscale 720p24 using Lanczos3?
2. Is the Lanczos3 used in XBMC different in any way to the one used by madVR?

Why Anandtech and Renethx don't have any benchmarks on this type of common files? or am I blind?

Regards.
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post #25 of 122
12/2/12 at 6:06pm
1. Yes, Intel HD Graphics 2500 is (barely) enough for 720p24 under madVR Lanczos3+AR in image upscaling (and MN in chroma) in a 1080p display.

- Rendering time: ~36ms (a bit close to 41.7 ms = 1 / 24fps)
- GPU usage: ~90%

2. I don't know.
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post #26 of 122
12/2/12 at 8:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

So you may benefit from something like Madvr. I would try it especially for your non-HD media.

Assasin,

I built my first HTPC thanks to your guides. I'm running an I5-2500K and only using the built-in graphics (HD3000 I believe). I am very confused on the use of MADVR in that I use XBMC for everything. So am I able to utilize MadVR and XBMC together at the same time? I didn't even know what MadVR was until I opened up this thread. Thank you in advance.
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post #27 of 122
12/2/12 at 8:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdastas View Post

Assasin,
I built my first HTPC thanks to your guides. I'm running an I5-2500K and only using the built-in graphics (HD3000 I believe). I am very confused on the use of MADVR in that I use XBMC for everything. So am I able to utilize MadVR and XBMC together at the same time? I didn't even know what MadVR was until I opened up this thread. Thank you in advance.

No, you have to use MPC-HC for Madvr and not XBMC.

As I have stated many times before I am not as high or excited about Madvr as some people on AVS. I have tried it and not seen any noticeable improvement but almost all of my media is 1080p or 720p. The 480 stuff I have is mostly kids movies (and they don't care about the PQ either way wink.gif )

As to not offend the very passionate Madvr fanbase here at AVS I will leave it at that. The only way for you to know is to try it out yourself. I have a guide in my "Advanced/Beta" section that you can use if you want to try it out.
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post #28 of 122
12/2/12 at 10:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

No, you have to use MPC-HC for Madvr and not XBMC.
As I have stated many times before I am not as high or excited about Madvr as some people on AVS. I have tried it and not seen any noticeable improvement but almost all of my media is 1080p or 720p. The 480 stuff I have is mostly kids movies (and they don't care about the PQ either way wink.gif )
As to not offend the very passionate Madvr fanbase here at AVS I will leave it at that. The only way for you to know is to try it out yourself. I have a guide in my "Advanced/Beta" section that you can use if you want to try it out.

Got it, Thank You!
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post #29 of 122
12/3/12 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

1. Yes, Intel HD Graphics 2500 is (barely) enough for 720p24 under madVR Lanczos3+AR in image upscaling (and MN in chroma) in a 1080p display.
- Rendering time: ~36ms (a bit close to 41.7 ms = 1 / 24fps)
- GPU usage: ~90%

Thanks Renethx. Using those settings I'm getting 100% GPU usage, probably because your test has a faster RAM? I have 8GB DDR3-1600.

The other issue is that playback is stuck at the beginning, I have to press stop and then press Play again for the movie to start.
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post #30 of 122
12/3/12 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

As to not offend the very passionate Madvr fanbase here at AVS I will leave it at that. The only way for you to know is to try it out yourself. I have a guide in my "Advanced/Beta" section that you can use if you want to try it out.

To update my comments above and speaking strictly about scaling 720p24, I have notice that XBMC picture quality is highly dependant on the source quality, it seems obvious but it's not.
For intance for bluray rips @ 720p24 the picture quality is comparable to the scaling of the Popcorn Hour. Web-DL (TV episodes) in the other hand look like s$hit.

About the 24p bug, I can say that so far I haven't notice a single glitch, even though XBMC shows the display changing constantly between 23.95 and 23.98 FPS.
madVR in the other hand, shows a constant frame rate of 23.972.
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