Owner thread for Erskine designed plans - Page 2

Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine 

To quote "Subjectively, the room sounds just plain awesome. The perf-sorber has created an acoustical signature that has very precise imaging in the middle of the room, but also feels much wider than the room".

Originally Posted by J_P_A 

Thanks for the info. I've read through Kromkamp's thread several times. That thread is probably the reason I'm considering the Quest products

Originally Posted by J_P_A 

ndevries1, do you have any experience in a HT treated with DIY materials that you could offer some comparison to? I'm still on the fence regarding the Quest panels.

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo 

You mean, you wouldn't use our recommendation as the basis of your decision?

Originally Posted by TMcG 

I had the same recommendation for a full-on Quest system in my theater, which was expected. Like JPA I was interested in a potential DIY option for internal room acoustics for not just absorbtion, but also the reflection, diffusion, etc. that doesn't destroy the high frequencies. I was essentially told there was no DIY option since these Quest panels use proprietary technologies. That's fine, but like JPA, I wasn't necessarily looking to mimic Quest, only to take another approach that might get me most of the benefit while saving several thousand dollars. As it stands with my theater, the total for just the panels with shipping was just over $4000. Add the track, the acoustic fabric and a bit of OEM panel work (i.e. a couple of fully-finished panels were needed in my design) and I was approaching $8,000 for this step of my theater.

I know the room has the greatest influence on the sound, but for those of us who are budget constrained or who would otherwise like an upgrade path on this portion of the theater build we have to explore other options and advice - probably to our detriment vs. the Quest tech, but those sacrifices are made in almost every step of the build process. I would love to have a DPI, Runco or other high-powered projector but budget dictates I can get most of the performance in the $3000 projector range. I would love Levinson amplification for all channels, but budget dictates that I shop used amplifiers and can get most of the performance at an eigth of the cost of the high-end amps. To me, this choice on different acoustic approaches is the same thing. Without any other recommendation from EG, the best we can do is implement the reflection, diffusion and absorbtion areas shown through discussion of different approaches.

That being said, if I had unlimited funds then it would be no question to pull the trigger on the Quest panels based on the EG's recommendation!

Originally Posted by Mntneer 

Not being too familiar with the DIY routes, what the time involved in making the amount of panels required to match the number of Quest panels you'd need? And once factoring the cost of the DIY materials, would you be approaching the cost of the Quest panels?

I'm going to be starting my home theater this summer (hopefully) and plan on doing as much as I can myself, but for some areas that I'm not as familiar with, such as the panels, it may be easier for me to save my time and just go with something like Quest. Because I could see the number of man hours I'd end up putting into the project going well beyond it being cost effective.

Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo 

You mean, you wouldn't use our recommendation as the basis of your decision?

Originally Posted by Mntneer 

Not being too familiar with the DIY routes, what the time involved in making the amount of panels required to match the number of Quest panels you'd need? And once factoring the cost of the DIY materials, would you be approaching the cost of the Quest panels?

I'm going to be starting my home theater this summer (hopefully) and plan on doing as much as I can myself, but for some areas that I'm not as familiar with, such as the panels, it may be easier for me to save my time and just go with something like Quest. Because I could see the number of man hours I'd end up putting into the project going well beyond it being cost effective.

Originally Posted by SimpleTheater 

I just love the fact that those people on this thread are concerned with room acoustics. I can't stand seeing pictures like the one below. As if drywall and hard floors with no treatment is the type of home theater we should aspire.

Originally Posted by TMcG 

If you refer to this link: http://www.acoustimac.com/owens-corning-705/ you can see that six 2' x 4' x 2" panels will run you $128. I would need 5 packs plus shipping, so about $700 in my hands. For the sake of this discussion, let's say I was going to try to duplicate Quest panels so I will also need some Vinyl, maybe a pack of fiberglass at a different density and other materials totaling another $250 (guessing). That's still 25% of the total cost of the Quest panels, although who knows what the true performance level would be for the DIY panels vs. the real deal. You can also use 1" track with blocking to save a few bucks or rip a bunch of wood frames to save even more. If I was to go total DIY I would think I would fall around $1500 total cost vs. the $8000 through the professional solution quoted for my theater size. But again, I can't stress enough the fact that ultimate performance might be compromised. For me personally, if I went the DIY route it might just be a stepping stone or stop-gap to another solution down the road.

Originally Posted by macfan 

You know what I can't stand? People who have a lot of money and throw it in the faces of the rest of us. I made my decision when I chose my career. I became a teacher to help others. I knew what I was getting into when I chose it. Now 31 years later I survive on a small pension and Social Security. I started my career at $8,300 a year and ended it at $66,000 a year, so I never made a lot of money. My meager basement Home Theater is all I can afford. No way on earth could I ever afford Erskine design services let alone what it would cost to implement their ideas. You know what? I am just as pleased with my little, home made, DIY, basement, Home Theater as those of you who have the $100,000 Home Theater. My point is some of us don't have the money to do the things the rest of you do because we made self sacrificing decisions as to what to do with our lives. It isn't that we don't have money because we made foolish decisions or because we don't know how to handle money. I am tired of some of the smug people on AVS looking down their noses at the rest of us. I did the best I could with what I could afford in my Home Theater, but no I couldn't afford all of that acoustical stuff. That doesn't make me a bad person or an idiot.

Originally Posted by TMcG 

I may be speaking only for myself, but I didn't get any impression at all that those more modest systems were being slighted in any way by anyone. I think it is misplaced aggression to begrudge anyone who, for whatever reason, has additional discretionary income to spend on home theater or anything else for that matter. They made their choices, they earned the money, they can do what they want with it. My wife was a teacher and I was a bit stunned by the benefits package, particularly the fact that a person's pension equates to 90% of their last salary - something that is paid out for life, not to mention the almost fully paid-for healthcare for life. She said many teachers retire in their first year of eligibility at age 55 and then pick up Social Security whenever that kicks in. On the other hand, those not working in public schools naturally have to make more income since our income goes to zero once we retire (probably at least 65 or 70 years old) and we are responsible for paying out own insurance benefits and a litany of other items. Perhaps those making more aren't saving quite as much for retirement and therefore has more discretionary income for electronic "stuff".

That being said, if you refer to my post above with the link to some rigid Owen's Corning product, you will see that these materials are very inexpensive. I am sure you can calculate your total hard surface area and figure out how much of this hard surface needs to be covered with absorption to make the room sound much better vs. an untreated room from an absorption-only approach. As the room typically influences far more than 50% of the sound you hear, not doing anything with a dedicated theater room is like saying you don't want to have any HD content for your HD display. It is very inexpensive to do and implement, so it should be an easy choice to see what you can do in your dedicated room since it is your (and mine) hobby after all.

Would be nice to see a few pics of your setup as well! Cheers.

Originally Posted by macfan 

You know what I can't stand? People who have a lot of money and throw it in the faces of the rest of us. I made my decision when I chose my career. I became a teacher to help others. I knew what I was getting into when I chose it. Now 31 years later I survive on a small pension and Social Security. I started my career at $8,300 a year and ended it at $66,000 a year, so I never made a lot of money. My meager basement Home Theater is all I can afford. No way on earth could I ever afford Erskine design services let alone what it would cost to implement their ideas. You know what? I am just as pleased with my little, home made, DIY, basement, Home Theater as those of you who have the $100,000 Home Theater. My point is some of us don't have the money to do the things the rest of you do because we made self sacrificing decisions as to what to do with our lives. It isn't that we don't have money because we made foolish decisions or because we don't know how to handle money. I am tired of some of the smug people on AVS looking down their noses at the rest of us. I did the best I could with what I could afford in my Home Theater, but no I couldn't afford all of that acoustical stuff. That doesn't make me a bad person or an idiot.

Originally Posted by ndevries1 

On the subject of money... I just updated my cost-spreadsheet...I wonder if there is any value to anyone to see my cost of Sound-treatment vs construction and equipment cost?

(This is a good exercise for me to go through anyway, as it will all be added to my build thread..(still pending)

I am 27 years old, we have a 1-yr old, and I am an Industrial Mechanic (just reference FYI)

I started with an un-finished basement, so some of the costs carry into the rest of the basement, (Carpet, mudding and taping, some of the electrical ect...)

Room overview: 21'-6" long by 11'-5.5" wide x 8'3" inside drywall surfaces

Highlights: DD+GG, DIY AT-Screenwall, Front-Stage, Riser, Fiber-Optic Ceiling, 2x rows seating, 2x rows surround speakers, Quest Acoustic Panels

Construction:
2x exterior basement walls border theater, the one long interior wall is stagger-stud, 5/8" DD+GG on all inside walls.
Ceiling is Clips+Hat Channel+DD+GG
Floor (the whole basement) is 1" T+G OSB on 1" XPS (more for thermal value than anything else)
Stage: 2x6 Construction, back half is sand filled
Riser: 2x10 Construction

I currently have the following equipment in my theater:

Panasonic PT-AE4000U
Yamaha RXV-3900
Dayton SA-1000
2x Dayton SA-230
miniDSP 10x10 HD
North Creek Echo LCR - DIY, built several years ago
6x Triad In-wall Bronze 4/Surround
CSS SD-12 sub - DIY
4x Clark Synthesis TST209 Tactile Transducer Bass Shaker
PS3
DNS-323 NAS enclosure
HTPC

This equipment cost me $10700

Acoustic Treatment - $3200

Seating - 2400$

Construction Cost: $19210
(including sub-contractor to mud-and-tape, carpet install, and all building materials for screen-wall, star ceiling, sound-treated door, framing, Insteon electrical components, Lighting, ISY-99, Drywall, Equipment-rack ect....) I can provide a more detailed breakdown if requested.... PM me...

Grand Total (Equipment and Construction): $34160 (This is the WAF-Unfriendly number... I find it's best to only discuss the;) individual portions of this number....)

So in summary: Acoustic treatment is less than 10% of my total cost to build the completely functional room "all-in". It does however add over 30% to my equipment cost, (and admittedly my equipment list is fairly humble by some standards on AVS... )

BUT at this point, I think the extra 30% to "equipment" cost (I think Acoustic panels can almost be classified under that?) is an acceptible amount for the performance gain I have seen.

Again, (back-on-subject) - (Still trying to keep this thread on the rails...)

The cost for some of the equipment EG "suggested" (Triads, DSP, and Quest Panels) destroyed my budget, but in the end, I am happy to have gone this route. It meant working a bunch of overtime, and saving up for longer.

I am VERY HAPPY to have spent the money I did on sound-proofing, I would do this again in a heart-beat, and will probably do a full Room-in-a-Room for the next one. The ability for me to listen at any volume, and my wife not be woken up in our bedroom 2x floors up (2-story home) is AWSOME! You can only *faintly* hear mid-range stuff in the kitchen (right above the theater); the bass however shakes the dishes somewhat. Bass is the hardest to treat in existing floor-construction. Its a weird sensation to be able to *feel* more of the theater than *hear* it...

I am very happy I spent the money on Erskine Pro-Layout. I will utilize them again, especially now that I know better what to expect and what to ask. Presumably, paying for a higher design-level may answer more of my questions next time.

Sorry for some of the verbal diarrhea, this will all be going in my full build-thread, which will go up once I sort through the myriads of construction photos, and get some more shots of current progress...

Thanks

Nathan

Originally Posted by ndevries1 

Construction Cost: $19210
(including sub-contractor to mud-and-tape, carpet install, and all building materials for screen-wall, star ceiling, sound-treated door, framing, Insteon electrical components, Lighting, ISY-99, Drywall, Equipment-rack ect....) I can provide a more detailed breakdown if requested.... PM me...

Grand Total (Equipment and Construction): $34160 (This is the WAF-Unfriendly number... I find it's best to only discuss the;) individual portions of this number....)