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Thread for members of the no center channel club - Page 2

post #31 of 126
12/5/12 at 1:54pm
Wondering - do any of you guys who feel not using a center is a compromise (or some other kind of audio heresy ) use controlled directivity speakers - big waveguides with toe-in?

If using vertical line arrays, sure, a center would be essential for an audience of more than one.
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post #32 of 126
12/5/12 at 2:10pm
That's exactly what I do, and I saw that some others in this thread do as well. My Constant Directivity horns are crossed over at 600 Hz and toed in. I probably should have qualified my earlier comments about phantom vs. physical centers... before I got my CD horns, I found a center channel to be necessary, and was never satisfied with anything less than a third copy of whatever mains I had. That was how I rolled for years - projector, large high fidelity fronts with dome tweeters. Nowdays I prefer a large TV to a projector, I like my screen to be mounted at a normal height (i.e. no towers for center channel)... and I LOVE how my horns sound with a phantom center. Not going back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

Wondering - do any of you guys who feel not using a center is a compromise (or some other kind of audio heresy ) use controlled directivity speakers - big waveguides with toe-in?
If using vertical line arrays, sure, a center would be essential for an audience of more than one.
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post #33 of 126
12/5/12 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

Wondering - do any of you guys who feel not using a center is a compromise (or some other kind of audio heresy ) use controlled directivity speakers - big waveguides with toe-in?
If using vertical line arrays, sure, a center would be essential for an audience of more than one.

It's funny, Bill. I still sit in my "sweet spot", right in the middle, dead center. In actuality, the sweet spot is six feet to my left AND to my right. No horizontal nulls here. biggrin.gif

I'll go ahead and build my center, they will eventually go behind a screen (which is a shame). I'll put a few lights above each speaker behind the screen on a dimmer to show them off and for my psycho-acoustic needs. tongue.gif
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post #34 of 126
12/5/12 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

But blah blah positioning blah Schroeder frequency blah blah distributed blah modal zone blah blah blah Geddes blah!!! mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif
Hey this is kinda fun, I suggest all discussions of subwoofer theory be carried out this way in the future tongue.gif

Lol. Exactly the kind of response I was teasing. tongue.gif
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post #35 of 126
12/6/12 at 3:56am
Imo, bass is absolutely compromised in theaters due to costs and sound insulating reasons.

Back to the center channel. When done correctly, I would rather have a center. Obviously right behind the screen is best but I've had the center above and below the screen as well with very good results.

Especially with speakers like the SEOS 12", you would have three good identical speakers across the front. How would that not sound better?
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post #36 of 126
12/6/12 at 5:16am
A full-blown IMAX auditorium usually has less total watts and total displacement than some systems we see here. Even taking cost and sound insulation into account, how can one say that 'what's good enough for an IMAX auditorium is insufficient for a suburban basement' with a straight face?
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Imo, bass is absolutely compromised in theaters due to costs and sound insulating reasons.
Back to the center channel. When done correctly, I would rather have a center. Obviously right behind the screen is best but I've had the center above and below the screen as well with very good results.
Especially with speakers like the SEOS 12", you would have three good identical speakers across the front. How would that not sound better?
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post #37 of 126
12/6/12 at 6:07am
I agree with you on just about every point - bass management, full-range speakers, the effectiveness of a good center channel paired with an AT screen. I deleted all me defensive responses to you because I don't have anything to argue except your contention that there is an issue with my system or my speakers. That was not necessary. I thought this thread was for fans of phantom center channel mode, not a forum to mock them.

If I do install an AT screen, I'll certainly add a center channel... but 95% of the time a TV is more appropriate for my needs than a projector rig. I know because I've owned a few, and I've gone through the effort to have three full-sized matching mains, each with a dedicated subwoofer (Stereophile rated speakers FWIW). I gave that up three years ago - a time when I'd have 3 projectors going at once for parties. Good times, those were.

I like watching stuff during daytime, in a bright room... and with the direction TV sizes and prices are moving I'm hard pressed to see myself investing in projection vs. buying a huge TV, which will likely leave me using a phantom center channel for some time to come. My view is simply the inverse... a projector with an AT screen is a compromise that would be needed in order to have a proper center channel. If this thread was titled "Center Channels: Totally useless for dedicated home theaters" it would be another story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

This thread and comments like that give me the creeps.
I don't believe in not using a center channel out of principle. Surround sound mixes have a hard coded center channel. It's required for 'proper' playback, imo. If using a center channel "screws up the image" of the sound mix is happening to you, you are doing something wrong. Sorry. The center channel is supposed to anchor any effects that are at the center of the screen. Just like any other channel is supposed to anchor a particular vector. It's also one of the most demanded upon channels of a multichannel mix. One can still have a wide soundstage with a center channel. If one cannot reproduce a mix properly with a center then I worry about your acoustics and/or speaker selection. I rarely see anyone with identical LCR's prefer not using their center.
I've heard great phantom center imaging before and that's great but I'm not going to neuter my movie experience for the effect. Maybe I just have a nice center channel. Idk.
What I'd like to know is those of you that prefer phantom centers have an acoustic transparent screen or have the capability to go about owning one. I find most that prefer phantom center do so to compromise because they can't physically fit a proper center channel. I get that but I don't agree with it.

Edited by imagic - 12/6/12 at 6:40am
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post #38 of 126
12/6/12 at 6:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

You and Beast and a couple others have FAN-FU**ING-TASTIC mains. Big Ol' line arrays. I don't know a single person who has a third for their center channel.
I do. biggrin.gif
And when I switch from L-C-R to L-R it definitely suffers.
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post #39 of 126
12/6/12 at 8:53am
Interesting thread and well timed as I'm in the midst of changing out my center. I was listening to the Dark Knight Rises with just the center, just the Mains with no center, and phantom center. First, all movies will vary but man the center carries a lot of weight in this movie, not just dialogue which is a given but the musical score and way more effects than I would have thought. The mains are very impactful without subs and when Bane speaks, add greatly to the effect. In phantom I feel I lost some of the separation. Seating distance, processors, etc. will definitely weigh on how good phantom is in a given application. For my scenario, the clarity and impact went up greatly when I added the current L and R. I'm excited to build the matching center. I believe it will go up a couple of notches.
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post #40 of 126
12/6/12 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I agree with you on just about every point - bass management, full-range speakers, the effectiveness of a good center channel paired with an AT screen. I deleted all me defensive responses to you because I don't have anything to argue except your contention that there is an issue with my system or my speakers. That was not necessary. I thought this thread was for fans of phantom center channel mode, not a forum to mock them.
If I do install an AT screen, I'll certainly add a center channel... but 95% of the time a TV is more appropriate for my needs than a projector rig. I know because I've owned a few, and I've gone through the effort to have three full-sized matching mains, each with a dedicated subwoofer (Stereophile rated speakers FWIW). I gave that up three years ago - a time when I'd have 3 projectors going at once for parties. Good times, those were.
I like watching stuff during daytime, in a bright room... and with the direction TV sizes and prices are moving I'm hard pressed to see myself investing in projection vs. buying a huge TV, which will likely leave me using a phantom center channel for some time to come. My view is simply the inverse... a projector with an AT screen is a compromise that would be needed in order to have a proper center channel. If this thread was titled "Center Channels: Totally useless for dedicated home theaters" it would be another story.

Well... alright then, cuz I never saw them.

iMagic, just to clarify... I wasn't exactly directing my comments to you but to the general idea. You just happened to make the comment so I quoted you. I think your system is pretty interesting. What you have is a nice living room HT setup. Though you do have to compromise some because you prefer "brighter tv's" to watch stuff during the day. Idk what projector you used but my Panasonic ax200u is retina searing. Lol! It's plenty bright for daytime viewing. Anyway, I want the movie theater experience and imo that would require all speakers and anice, big AT screen. I would NEVER go back. However, if I wanted a living room setup....I'll go plasma. But either way, not everyone will agree with the contents of this thread or any thread so I'm sorry you have to deal with me and not agreeing with the use of phantom centers for HT use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I do. biggrin.gif
And when I switch from L-C-R to L-R it definitely suffers.

Dayum, Bill. Post that up!
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post #41 of 126
12/6/12 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Interesting thread and well timed as I'm in the midst of changing out my center. I was listening to the Dark Knight Rises with just the center, just the Mains with no center, and phantom center. First, all movies will vary but man the center carries a lot of weight in this movie, not just dialogue which is a given but the musical score and way more effects than I would have thought. The mains are very impactful without subs and when Bane speaks, add greatly to the effect. In phantom I feel I lost some of the separation. Seating distance, processors, etc. will definitely weigh on how good phantom is in a given application. For my scenario, the clarity and impact went up greatly when I added the current L and R. I'm excited to build the matching center. I believe it will go up a couple of notches.

That will be sweet and I wanna see it! smile.gif
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post #42 of 126
12/6/12 at 2:07pm
Hah, maybe you are right about the projector because it was 4... maybe 5 years ago I bought my last one (a Bravia something or other) & back then the term 'light canon' had not yet caught on to describe sub $2,000 HD projectors. It may come to pass that I build out a proper HT since my current TV satiated my desire to see good 3D at home, 1080p projectors have become quite inexpensive and I do miss a good sci-fi flick on a big screen in a darkened room... Plus DIY screens are why I joined AVS in the first place back in 2005. I also acknowledge that there have been improvements in price/performance when it comes to speakers, and that I have not actually tried a physical center channel with speakers that have the kind of resolution my current ones do. The experience may very well be totally different, I can't knock it until I try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Well... alright then, cuz I never saw them.
iMagic, just to clarify... I wasn't exactly directing my comments to you but to the general idea. You just happened to make the comment so I quoted you. I think your system is pretty interesting. What you have is a nice living room HT setup. Though you do have to compromise some because you prefer "brighter tv's" to watch stuff during the day. Idk what projector you used but my Panasonic ax200u is retina searing. Lol! It's plenty bright for daytime viewing. Anyway, I want the movie theater experience and imo that would require all speakers and anice, big AT screen. I would NEVER go back. However, if I wanted a living room setup....I'll go plasma. But either way, not everyone will agree with the contents of this thread or any thread so I'm sorry you have to deal with me and not agreeing with the use of phantom centers for HT use.
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post #43 of 126
12/6/12 at 2:16pm
I'm not sure if you can get your hands on a third one of your horns but the woofers and CD should be no problem to source. You should do it! I made my 100" 16:9 AT screen for about $300 and it's WAY better than any name brand screen I've ever seen. Also, if you want a nice 1080p light cannon projector, check out the new-ish Panasonic PT-AR100U which is only $1,300. No 3D though. You'll have to pay more for that for a 3D Panny or get another brand but I was recommended a nice and BRIGHT projector for ya. wink.gif

I have mine set to the darkest mode (but normal bulb power, not eco) and it will burn your retinas. Lol!

Here is a link to my DIY AT screen I built..... wow, almost 5 years ago. Yeesh. Time for a ..... larger one. biggrin.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1028664/building-my-first-screen-sheerweave-4500
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post #44 of 126
12/6/12 at 2:33pm
I can't stand active LCD, so no 3D in a projector is cool with me. I can get another horn including the CD by ordering one of these: http://www.guitarcenter.com/B-52-LX-218-18--2-Way-Loudspeaker-102572997-i1166539.gc - and as a bonus I'd have an 18" woofer to mess around with.

I'm a firm believer in the principle of 'Genius of the AND, tyranny of the OR" - so if I can have phantom center AND real center channel capability... a 3D tv AND a 1080p projector... yeah!

I'll be looking at the post-holiday sales for sure. I see that Panny at B&H for $1250 w/free shipping and no tax. I could do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I'm not sure if you can get your hands on a third one of your horns but the woofers and CD should be no problem to source. You should do it! I made my 100" 16:9 AT screen for about $300 and it's WAY better than any name brand screen I've ever seen. Also, if you want a nice 1080p light cannon projector, check out the new-ish Panasonic PT-AR100U which is only $1,300. No 3D though. You'll have to pay more for that for a 3D Panny or get another brand but I was recommended a nice and BRIGHT projector for ya. wink.gif
I have mine set to the darkest mode (but normal bulb power, not eco) and it will burn your retinas. Lol!
Here is a link to my DIY AT screen I built..... wow, almost 5 years ago. Yeesh. Time for a ..... larger one. biggrin.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1028664/building-my-first-screen-sheerweave-4500
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post #45 of 126
12/6/12 at 2:43pm
Another option, if you're feeling REALLY ambitious, is to get two of those projectors and then a device that will do 3D externally and then you combine their output on your screen (double lumens!!!!) and then use passive glasses.

I saw a thread about this here that talks about the idea but it's a long thread and I haven't read it all.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1280393/the-ultimate-3d-projection-system-a-practical-discussion-thread
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post #46 of 126
12/6/12 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

if not using an acoustically transparent screen and projecting a large image, the center ends up on the floor or the ceiling and that is really annoying to some folks.
a phantom can be used to get the dialog onto the screen where it should be.
are you using controlled directivity speakers or omni's?

I'm running an AT screen.
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post #47 of 126
12/7/12 at 2:41am
Most living room systems are a host of compromises anyway. I believe omitting a center with a good set of mains is the least of someones worries. Most people buy subwoofers and NEVER dial them in with the proper sofware and hardware, i would say 99% of displays are never calbrates correctly and the one that gets me the most is plugging the whole shabang in one 15a wall outlet thats powering most of the first floor connected to a fancy shmancy power strip. So, one more weak link isnt going to flip your world upside down...

With that said, i would never omit a center from my system, it anchors the image no matter how far right or left you are from center.

KG
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post #48 of 126
12/7/12 at 8:24am
First of all, I've only ever had a 2.1 setup, and until fairly recently always thought that was fine for a single-seat experience. Reading Toole's excellent "Sound Reproduction," however, has changed my mind about this, among other things. He presents a fundamental frequency-response difference between phantom and real center which can never quite be corrected. Very real reason for improved intelligibility with a real center, not to mention different timbre, even in the sweet spot. Too bad for me, as a real center isn't in the cards for the foreseeable future... frown.gif
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post #49 of 126
12/7/12 at 8:31am
speaking of compromises and competing priorities. Had I known how phantom center would sound with my speakers, I'd probably spend the money to build a few sub boxes instead of the center channel.
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post #50 of 126
12/7/12 at 4:02pm
If going phantom center has left anyone with a TD12M they don't need, I'm looking for one
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post #51 of 126
12/7/12 at 7:01pm
I also believe it depends on how your processor uses a phantom center. I tried runnin phantom center for comparisons of different pairs of speakers and they all lots their awesome dynamics. It was my processor because as soon as I said center yes the dynamics came back and in a big way so I just sucked it up and started comparing 3 identical speakers vs another 3 identical speakers. All I know is my processor was made for 5.1(I can't fit a proper 7.1).
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post #52 of 126
12/7/12 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I also believe it depends on how your processor uses a phantom center. I tried runnin phantom center for comparisons of different pairs of speakers and they all lots their awesome dynamics. It was my processor because as soon as I said center yes the dynamics came back and in a big way so I just sucked it up and started comparing 3 identical speakers vs another 3 identical speakers. All I know is my processor was made for 5.1(I can't fit a proper 7.1).

We're you using Audyssey? Could have something to do with it. But at the same time, with a phantom, you are asking the left and right to pick up the job the center would do so I would think you could definitely lose dynamics especially at higher volume.
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post #53 of 126
12/9/12 at 1:30pm
Has anyone mentioned dynamic range compression as a huge downside of going phantom? I assume that is still an issue as is was with Dolby Digital on DVD?

When I disable my center speaker, I don't notice the level of all speakers go down by a few dB. What would be the only way to make sure you don't clip a channel when adding half the content of the center channel to R+L channels. Otherwise some dynamic range compression has to be engaged. I once tested this with DD years ago and had peaks about 6 dB lower when using phantom center.
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post #54 of 126
12/9/12 at 1:35pm
Forget it. 24 bit dynamic range can handle it all and then some. Why would you even bring up DVDs? There is no bottleneck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Has anyone mentioned dynamic range compression as a huge downside of going phantom? I assume that is still an issue as is was with Dolby Digital on DVD?
When I disable my center speaker, I don't notice the level of all speakers go down by a few dB. What would be the only way to make sure you don't clip a channel when adding half the content of the center channel to R+L channels. Otherwise some dynamic range compression has to be engaged. I once tested this with DD years ago and had peaks about 6 dB lower when using phantom center.
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post #55 of 126
12/9/12 at 6:43pm
?

The bottleneck is 0 dBFs maximum signal saturates the analog output, right? So you add channels then you can clip the D/A conversion.
Edited by psgcdn - 12/9/12 at 8:13pm
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post #56 of 126
12/9/12 at 11:33pm
I'm fairly sure you are referring to dithering and not clipping. Yeah that's happening anytime you don't use uncompressed source audio (True HD etc.) , regardless of how many channels you use. 24-bit signal paths can handle all of it, with 144db of dynamic range you're not going to lose SQ, at least not compared to what the amplifier does to the sound. Maybe with a cheap or old AVR (DVD! AC3!) things are different?
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

?
The bottleneck is 0 dBFs maximum signal saturates the analog output, right? So you add channels then you can clip the D/A conversion.
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post #57 of 126
12/10/12 at 5:42am
This was indeed a serious issue with Dolby Digital on DVD. So the new codecs keep some digital headroom to handle this now? On legacy Dolby Digital, setting the center channel to phantom engaged DRC, aka midnight mode.
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post #58 of 126
12/10/12 at 6:07am
Sure, but Dolby Digital had a mere 640 kbit/s stream which explains why any attempt to remix it resulted in noticeable loss. Processing the LPCM stream (with 27Mbit/s) of data from a Blu-Ray you will not have the same issues nor will you with Dolby Digital Plus (4.7 Mbit/s).

Even modest modern AVRs have a listed dynamic range of 100db which implies 3.5 db of headroom over 16-bit levels, which is exactly the headroom you'd need to re-route channels if need be. Of course that's just a starting point, my soundcard has 122db of DR at the stereo outputs -more than enough for TDKR's soundtrack, for example.

I did notice when Netflix switched to Dolby Digital Plus soundtracks - those movies consistently sound better than iTunes movies with AC3, so I know of the issue you refer to. I have not watched a DVD in many years so I forget how they sound/look.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

This was indeed a serious issue with Dolby Digital on DVD. So the new codecs keep some digital headroom to handle this now? On legacy Dolby Digital, setting the center channel to phantom engaged DRC, aka midnight mode.

Edited by imagic - 12/10/12 at 7:54am
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post #59 of 126
12/10/12 at 9:54am
Ok, still would like to find official info about that. I'll post it if I ever find it.
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post #60 of 126
12/23/12 at 7:30am
Edit #2

Running 9.2 channels through a Pioneer Elite SC-55 with identical LCR speakers. As good a sound field as I have heard using 'Neo-X Music + THX' but no matter how hard I try, phantom center sounds better... more 'natural'.

Update...

I got a new receiver - the inexpensive but well-reviewed Sony STR-DN1030. Compared to my older receivers - a Harman Kardon AVR-645 and a Sony STR-DH820, the DN1030 is a sizzling sonic powerhouse. I'm ready to admit that because my last receivers were a bit long-in-tooth, I underestimated how good processing and amplification has become. The 1030 sounds exactly like my Crown amps. At the price point of the 1030, I can say my mind is blown. I am genuinely surprised by how detailed the soundfield is. I am a fan of phantom center listening, if I'm alone it's wonderful to sit in the sweet spot - or cuddled up with my wife. However...

I am much more of a 'center channel fan' than I was yesterday. Without question Sony went all-out to make the 1030 a great sounding receiver. After some testing last night - the last act of Bourne Legacy and then the first half of Iron Man, I am ready to concede - I will not be watching movies with a phantom center again. Music is still a toss-up, with phantom winning out more often than not - when it comes to movies, I'm now in agreement with fans of highly competent center channels.
Edited by imagic - 12/31/12 at 7:58am
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