Thread for members of the no center channel club - Page 3

What a difference a week makes. After countless hours of tweaking, I've got a 9.2-capable AVR running a system running that - at it's best - sounds almost exactly the same with a real center and a phantom center in the surround mode I prefer for music listening - DTS Neo X Music + THX

What made the difference? Power. I grossly underestimated the power requirements of the center channel. Before, I had the XTi-1000 powering the L/R mains, figuring that left extra power for the AVR to drive the center. Flipping that equation brought overall balance to the system. I gave over my entire Crown XTi-1000 to the center channel and now it sings. To make up for the loss of power in the L/R mains, I am running 7.2 instead of 9.2 and bi-amping. The end result is 280 watts each for L/R and 550 watts for the center.

My impressions of what a center channel can do have been totally rehabilitated. The ideal is that at the point of measurement for a good AVR, the listener should not be able to discern the difference between phantom and real center channels. That requires the two-channel front stage to have exceptional imaging, and for the 3-channel stage it requires a center that is truly matched, properly integrated... and given access to a surplus of power relative to the rest of the system.

So, am I still a member of the no center channel club? I have one installed now, and it's a $1,000 center channel. It works and it allows me to have guests over and 'wow' everyone with what I could experience by myself with a phantom center channel. Switching to phantom remains an option, but it's no longer my default. Still a fan - I like 'knowing' that center channel is off - psychologically it's somehow more gratifying to hear 'holographic' sound - even if modern surround processing is now just as good at recreating subtle depth cues.

Of course everything I am discussing is for listening to MUSIC.

For movies, the new system in "Neo: X Cinema THX" mode blows away everything else I have experienced. There's no way I will watch a movie with a phantom center anymore... but again I'm a bit surprised how much power was needed to make it work.

I had something funky go down the other night while watching the Dark Knight Rises. What I noticed was supremely strange and VERY worrisome. Equipment is the denon 4311 and 1611UD disc player, along with the emotiva xpa-5 and LS6 L/R speakers, still no center channel. So I went through my usual routine of level matching before I played the movie. My LS6's are very close to equidistant from me and both their levels are usually identical at around +2.5dB on the trim to get them to 75dB on my RS meter. I adjusted everything out, listened to a track or two of music before the movie went in and all sounded PERFECT, in stereo or any other listening mode for that matter.

So here is where it gets strange I started listening to the movie and all of the sudden, the center image was off, I mean WAYYY off. I had to trim up the right speaker from +2.5 to +6dB to bring the image back to the middle of the screen. I don't understand why this happened, as I said with music and test tones and all, everything was perfectly level matched before the content began. so strange. After adjusting the speaker up, it sounded fine again, but this seriously pissed me off and has me certainly wondering why this would happen. Now that I think of it, the same thing happened when I had the JTR's but it didnt seem as noticeable since I had a center channel at that point. wtf?

That is worrisome, sounds like an issue with the receiver since it has happened before with other speakers.
I assume that after the movie doing test tones that the levels were then way off from adjusting during the movie?

I don't think the AVR is to blame either unfortunately since it sounds just fine using other sources. I might try a cheapo LG 3d player down there and see what happens to try and cross some things off the list. or maybe I should just scoop an Oppo and forget about it all. It is a more capable unit anyways, and then I will have 4K upscaling

I just killed and buried my center channel. By massively upgrading my L/R mains, I have renewed my membership to this club.

The dark knight rises has a very unusual and hot mix imo. When I watched it on blu ray, it made my system sound all out of whack too.

Please stop...you're making too much sense.

James

Watching the game last night, it was pretty spot on actually for me, but I did notice some times when a center channel would have been nice. if the center doesn't blend well with the LR though, which would also be hard to do in my case, I will stay a member as well, at least for the time being.


This is good to know! I also found the issue of my problem, and it was very simple fix. Seemed I had not gone through and double-checked Audyssey's distance settings after my last run, and they were slightly off. adjusted the distance properly and BAMM dialogue was back dead-center. It did at the same time cause me to lose every bit of my well blended sub system, and since I am switching that out tonight, i didnt mess with it...It is amazing though once again how big a difference changing the distance just a few inches can do though...

DKR just had an awful mix. It wasn't just hot, it was compressed and had clipped effects. If that wasn't bad enough often times the music, sfx and dialog were trying to fight each other to the top of loudness.

Extremely disappointing mix.

Hey... it's what I do. Ummm.... most of the time.

Yeah, when I first watched it, I had to go check the settings on my avr because it sounded so terrible.

It was like that theatrically too, unfortunately. A bad mix from the start. By the time 'the Bat' makes it's first appearance the mix gets a little bit less compressed and overly hot but the mix of music, dialog and such is still bad all the way to the end.

Bane's voice is what drives me nuts. sounds dubbed over the whole time

That's because it was.

I believe he was re-recorded after everyone threw a fit about his voice when there was an IMAX preview. Now his voice is pushed up into the mix by about 10dB.

thats fine to redo it but they shouldnt have it sound so................redone...

Well, I'm definitely not part of this club no more!

Nice! Did Ruben build it for you? Looks like its a good match to your 6's. Are those AV123 6's or did someone else build them?

Scott

Thanks man! Yes Ruben built the speaker. The man is an artist when it comes to his woodworking skills! Super happy with the way it turned out.

The mains are of the AV123 variety.

Remember the controversial X-base? That is an AV123 signature special!

Would love to hear your impressions Edogg...I still don't have an LS-C for my 6's, but will probably cave eventually.

Yeah the dude's got some major skills. I'd love to have him build me some nice N3's or something someday but I have so much fun building stuff myself ... definitely worth paying him to get the finish similar/close to the AV123 6's. Those things were works of art themselves

That's right I totally forgot about the controversy! It all seems so long ago now ...

Scott

Im coming over!

Scott, never saw TDKR at home but was the mix really that bad? All I know was the scenes I tested for a few seconds seemed...Hot...

Ok I get to play dumb, what is/was TDKR?

I'm....BATMAN!

Oh, haha! Never seen that abbreviation before ... The scenes are pretty hot for sure. I love the opening scene to the movie, its one of my test tracks ...

Sorry to derail the thread ...

Scott

Yeah, the way that went down was really too bad. Sometimes it seems not long enough though...when I mention my LS-6's online, I just cannot call them 'AV123 LS-6'. For a while I said 'GR Research LS-6', but although designed by Richie that isn't right either, so now I just say 'LS-6' and hope nobody presses any further.

Many guys simply jettisoned everything AV123 after that debacle. I couldn't bring myself to do that with these.

Nor should you, I absolutely LOVE my pair. Nothing compares when it comes to music, and even the mighty cbt36 doesnt have as much extension (although it would be pretty close once in-room)

Me either! Im an LS guy for life I think.

As for how the LS-C performs, well I spent a few hours last night getting it integrated in the rig. As you know the mains already throw a HUGE soundstage, but with this center channel in the mix its like the 3 channels are one massive speaker. It just blends in so well and side to side pans are seamless. Its the perfect match to the big line arrays.
+1

The 9's are even "bigger" than the 6's too ... In all aspects. There's just MORE of everything, including cabinet size The 6's are absolutely fantastic though and would actually be what I chose for myself. I'd love a pair in Piano Birds Eye Maple!

Scott

You guessed what finish mine are!! haha

Nice! My 2nd favorite finish they did behind African Macassar Ebony. I had a set of RS450's and Bigfoot in Ebony and loved them.

I had about 20 minutes alone last night when I arrived home before the rest of the family. I was able to crank it up on the LS-6's. When they got home my son said, "You know you have great speakers when it sounds awesome in the driveway!" I absolutely love how these sound. Mine are Palisander.