Redray 4K player with Odemax -Could this be the better than Bluray we have all been lloking for?

Figured there would be a lot more discussion of this thing, especially with a $1450 preorder price, and due to start shipping end of this month...

EDIT btw the coverage is saying 4:2:2 not 4:4:4

But no content and all BD players do deep color. Or is there something else I am missing?

Its 12 bit 4:2:2 or 8 bit RGB 4::4:4. The 12 bit is not RGB by YCrCb.

The anser is it depends on whether the contentis furnished by the content producer in bluray format or something higher. If the content is nation 4K, then downrezing wth the higher bit rate at the same Mb as Bluray players, the picture should be substantially improved.

This should be interesting. I'd personally prefer to be early but not the first to own it. Will there be any loaners avaliable to demo in ones home ?

Art

Pretty much but i would quibble with the word profits. They split the revenue with the largest share going to the content maker. It will be I think like Amazon with a lot of Amazon stores and Amazon handling the transaction and with Odemax having a portal at every independent producer and at all who purchase a server. And there is the only problem. The consumer needs to spend $1450 for a server and that will really hold back things but as Red expands and can get better capatalized and goes to China to have servers built (there is simply no need to build a dull electronic box in Sunny california) then that problem will go away. And Odemax gets a 20% to 30% share depending if a commercial theater vs a non commercial end user is involved. 20 to 30% to cover basically what Amazon does. I wanna buy stock in Odemax..
Edited by mark haflich - 12/5/12 at 4:48am

The published specs of 12 bit 4:2:2 or 8 bit RGB 4:4:4 and Rec.709 is based on the restriction of HDMI and displays. The RedRay .RED encoded materials colorspace can be much higher if the connector and display can accommodate it.
This will be the advantage of the RED projectors which will have the RedRay player integrated in the projector.
There are no problem with capitalization at RED. The advantage of manufacturing in their own facility in California is that they can take the direct cost advantage of increased manufacturing speeds and quality control. This is the reason they could cut the price of all their cameras recently.

This is an example of the advantage of the increased manufacturing speeds in an in-house facility.

There is an open invitation to see the player and projector(s?) at RED Studios in LA. Just contact RED first.
Edited by coolscan - 12/5/12 at 4:00am

Art. They only sell direct. A loaner of a box like this I suspect would be purchase with a right of return, I have no clue what they return policy is. However, what's for you to try before they is content from Odemax that you want to watch and you get a 4K display. I am sure the content supplied and downscaled will be better than native 1080p but it seams to be premature for you at this point. I can always lend you mine when you want to try it. Nothing in it ffor me. But I figure there is always a shot for a fruit pizza. But the box is just a means to receive the content and should be little different from any 2K or 4K video server with perhaps a different codec. What you need to audition is 12 bit 4:2:2which there codec and Mb rate, its really not the box at all. Box is just for receiving content transmitted over odemax whatever that ends up being.
Edited by mark haflich - 12/5/12 at 5:39am

But can you save and movie so you can see it again .

Granted you can do it on a harddrive but I suspect this player is more for those with 4K cameras to demo edited work to clients. That being said, I would buy one if great looking 4K content was put out say like 2001 (without the EE).

Speaking of hard drives, I see that Western Digital just announced an 8TB NAS for $660. If the average 4K movie is about 50GB, one or more of these drives might be worth having.

DCI spec films are around the 100-200GB range from my understanding.

The current BluRay pre-authoring workflow does not support 12bit. It's 422@10bit, then goes to 8bit during encoding. As the flow is largely HD video based, 12 bit is not an option.

Now of course the theatrical digital master is 2K or 4K uncompressed for the most part and up to 16 bit in some cases. So it's there, there's just no workflow to currently distribute content at 12 bits. Niche solutions like the Red Player will be the only option for a while.

DCI content includes a license key thet is keyed to dates and in some instances time. you can store the content but without a valid key you can not view it.So don't assume any content you purchase through Odemax will be yours to view foreover. some could be off course. we will just have to wait and see.

There is no distribution format for Blu Ray but the work flow you use is completely up to the rights owners and it's irrelevant what format the data originally is, as long as it's for BD after conversion 8 bit YCbCr with 4:2:0 colour subsampling and Rec. 709 gamut. Usually the master used for conversion to Blu Ray is a 10 bit 1080p source in 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 but it must not be at all. You can go directly from DI data or any intermediate formats if you have the tools.
I have ordered the box since I have use for it even if I never get studio material to play from it. I can master my own material and play it via the box, in 3D and 4K and HFR. I'm quite sure "The Hobbit" will be an early studio offering, possibly surpassing the quality we have now in cinemas (no 4K for now in cinemas).

Absolutely, yes you can. As a one off or special 12bit release. But I am referring to the mass production on the pre-authoring side side. You still need standard DVDs, Airline versions, Cable TC versions, OTA broadcast versions, and then there's all the foreign versions. In order to do all that in a profitable manner, you need a fast and efficient workflow. Today that is HD video. Once you step out of that standard, the tools are few and not efficient at all. Read expensive to do business with.

My point is still what I said years ago when Deep Color first appeared. It is not enough of a draw for the cost required to manufacture the masters. It's not the stamping cost as that is in fact the same. It's all the mastering costs, even if the DCI master is 12bit or more.

Now perhaps these new niche 4K formats may support it. But you aren't going to see 12bit BluRays at Wall Mart for a long time.

Hollywood is not different than Detroit in this example. Can you build a car in small town machine shop? Of course! Now can you build thousands a month for $20,000 MSRP? Not a chance!

For those who have not looked at the Red website, please do so before posting some uninformed opinion like "this is only for viewing dailies shot on a Red camera". This Redray format is Red throwing down the gauntlet against Sony's 1080p blu-ray format. Sony sat on their hands too long and Red beat them to the punch (just like Toshiba did). Will Sony respond? You bet your @$$...I just hope Red gets a foothold before Sony brings it. Sony has already proven that they can spend billions on a "too late" technology and overcome the opposition. My guess is that Sony has not yet recouped the money in advertising/marketing push they spent to overcome HD-DVD and I'm interested to see if they will dig the same hole twice (I think they will). I also think its great that Red's compression utility is so much more efficient than the one developed by Sony. (score two for Red)

Bravo to Red for being the first to the party...now, get that material to the masses and hold on for the industry's counterpunch (maybe they should contact Toshiba and Panasonic for financial partnerships)

I do not see them trying to offer an alternative to an optical disc format. l suspect Sony will come out with some sort of 4HD optical disc format with discs costing about the same as bluray discs. I just don't see the mass market going to a server and purchasing limited use content.but we will see.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/10/13 at 8:22am

Sony is going to come with superHD4K BD fairly soon IMO. $hit they can do it just offering their own films at say a 50% premium.

Art

Here we go again.... another format war and a a small group of 4K PJs to choose from...

And they also get us to buy a new player.

The problem with bringing out a 4K player and discs is who is going to buy it? Right now in the consumer market how many 4K displays are there? About a 1000 max. How many will there be at the end of 2013?. 3000 or 4000, worldwide? When B.bluray hit, there were plenty of 1080p sets. Perhaps a server and limited content supplied by Sony might be an answer until there are enogh sets out there to justify some other solution. I just don't know. Right now it will have to be the Odemax server and content. At least the server is relatively cheap. Pocket change in the 4K display market.

What material? I think you need to do some research into RED Studios and what they actually own in terms of content. The material will come from the major studios as it always does. They will control the mainstream 4K home video pipeline what ever it becomes.

Now of course you will be able to watch all the freebee and low budget films you want on your RED player. But the A title stuff is still the domain of the major studios.

At least Sony owns an established legacy studio with deep vaults going back 100 years. In addition they are an established workplace for the top industry talent. RED is not there yet.

I don't see the discs costing the same. They may cost the same to stamp, but the costs for new tooling and infrastructure for the encoding and authoring will have to be included. Even if that's negligible (and it won't be), they would be foolish to sell the 4K discs at the same price. Once done, they will have locked in that price point forever. New formats are always viewed as cash cows - that is if there is a demand to buy them. That takes time too.

Look at history:

LP/Cassette to CD
VHS to DVD
DVD to BluRay

Red is not a studeo. Red is not a content producer. Red is a camera manufacturer as well as soom other things. It is a server manufacturer and it let's call its Odemax arm a content distributor. major studeos use REDbcameras for at least some of their productions. As far as Odemax is concerned its what content owners will elect to provide their content in 4K form to some class of Redray player owners or owners of a Red projector that incorporates the player. Pure and simple. Initially if there is an optical disc format from Sony et al, content will be initially very very limited because there will be little demand considering how few 4K displays are out there. How cam 4K disc production costs be recouped?

What is the present incentive for buying a 4K panel?

Why have those of us who have a 1000ES sprung for it.. Surely not because it is just a 4K display for upscaled 2K. Not just because it will be able to play 4K content when such becomes available. It has manu other strong points that a 4K panel doesn't have. A brighter projector than most 1080p projectors. A much better lens. There are polenty of reasons to choose it while there is little demonstrable benefit for buying a 4K 84 inch flat planel


A mass market for 4K content just won't exist until 4K panels become a lot lot lot cheaper. That's why. i want content and are prepared to pay $1450 for a server and to rent content provided its not too expensive.
Edited by mark haflich - 12/10/12 at 1:03pm