Redray 4K player with Odemax -Could this be the better than Bluray we have all been lloking for? - Page 5

Whew. What a relief. odemax posted on twitter just after midnight MT that they were at sundance and that all their presenters (4 of them) were clobbered by the flu. The poster said things were ugly. Do you think they are ugly because of the flu, that Sundance is ugly, or that things are not presently going very well for Odemax and there situation is ugly? Seems to me to be a perfect excuse for;lack of performance and will buy them time until March when they previously announced a formal launch. Sundance is a perfect place for Odemax and if it can't convince independent film producers to distribute product through Odemax, they will fail trying to convince others. Indy producers have EXTREME difficulty in gettting into theaters and all but a tiny tiny tiny percentage (excluding indy's produced in association with a major studeo) make a profit.They use utube sites that distribute for free and that survive off of ads etc. here is a way for them to put cash in their pockets if Odemax can convince them that idiots like me desparate for 4K content will pay for it. they can't promise them showings in theaters, no theaters have the Redray player and Redray projectors aren't in any theaters (because the cameras aren't in production yet. Of course the theaters who have not yet converted to digital would have to buy the Redprojector and then make a marketing decision to show independent films. yea. I think its ugly.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/26/13 at 1:43pm

Did they write 94? Because now it's only 4 left.
I don't think this platform for Independents ever where intended for getting Independent Movies into regular Cinemas.
But there are still quite a number of Independent Cinemas/Art Houses, Film-clubs, Small Festivals and Boutique Cinemas where bot the distribution platform, Redray player and the Projector can fit nicely.

Several people posted that they already where in the planning stages of small "Art House" cinemas when the Odemax/Redray platform was announced last December, and they said that this would help them enormously to realise their plans,

We will see how it goes.

The only 4K display in peoples homes are the Sony projector, so it is not exactly like they need to be in a hurry, but I guess you are impatient which I very well understand.

The "natives" at the Red forum is remarkably quiet about the lack of news, but I guess that will change soon if there are no news about Odemax content.

TYPO. I fixed it, typed 94) missing the cap key should read (4).

I think they just are willing to put up with whatever Red says. Red opened the door and changed the entire mover vamera industry. They seem to understand that Red will eventually deliver and the lack of clearly defined what they will deliver doesn't seen to bither them.

I am a consumer. I want 4K content to display on my Sony and a means of feeding such content to the projector.

When preorders are taken and pictures of an assembly line rolling them out, I expect the product to be delivered or they need to publish a clear reason for the delay and a realistic time table for delivery.

They are a partner in Odemax. There was supposed to be a partial launch at Sundance and a formal complete launch in March.

I have no problem with the projector being delayed because it was never promised by a date certain. I was not as gullable as others who believed it would be released last year and I do not believe their consumer projectors will make it this year either. Red is credible about making good product, they are not credible at delivery dates or releasing hype the market up price points though there actual release price points are really good and offer great value. I still believe the consumer projector will come, probaby in 2014 and at a price point about 50% higher than the $10K they keep pushing.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/22/13 at 11:22pm

+1 Totally agreed Mark. After all the player hype and a few of us 4K Sony pj guys itching for 4K content, where the heck are these Redray units? It's end of Jan now and I haven't heard boo since all the preorders started.

Now friday and still nothing from Odemax other than their Jan 20th tweet.

I did call my Bomb Squad representative at Red. Bomb Squad means sales departmen. Tthe young man seemed genuinely interested of me as a HT consumer and not a film industry professional, their usual type of customer.

He was sympathetic to my consumer concerns about no information forth coming as to the reasons for delay in the shipment of the redray player.

As to Odemax, he said it wasn't their company but I said that type of answer was not acceptable since the Redray was only designed for load your own content unless supplied by Odemax. He did say that any 4k content, regardless of the supplier could be run through a red supplied conversion program loaded into my computer that would convert it for play by the Redray. Of course that content would have to be of the unlocked type. I guess one could buy for $300 a 4K file of Time and convert it. I said I hope Red could supply their own shot 4K demo etc with the redray so that consumer purchasers would have at least something they could use on a 4k display such as the Sony 1000ES .He said he would pass that suggestion along and was hopeful that it would be implemented. It was apparent to me that they were distancing themselves from odemax and raised my suspicions that Odemax was having difficulties.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/25/13 at 2:54pm

Jarred Land:
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.
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Bomb Squad is more than that. It is your personal representative that also takes care of repairs or other services.
I would be shocked if they haven't thought about that themselves already. Some hours of 4K content would be the least they should offer.
The RedRay encoder will be a Plug-In to REDs free RAW converter and editing program REDCINE-X PRO.
Edited by coolscan - 1/25/13 at 11:18am

I hope its idiot proof. But I doubt it.

Cool. Jarred can say what he wants.To me. Redray was marketed as a finished product rolling off an Redray assembly line.

As a consumer, it was markeedt to me a being able to play content disstributed by Odemax, Odemax would only work with Red servers and red servers could receive content basically from the Odemax network. Now I do understand it wil play content from other sources provided is converted by a handy dandy program by me.

OK. But understand without odemax up and running and distributing content, the Redray player is useless to HT consumers.Red plugged their PARTNERSHIP with Odemax. Odemax is dedicated to the red server, the Redray stand aloine or built into some future projector. The two companies might be legally separate entities but please cut the bull. They need each other and eseentially each one is useless to the HT consumer. Both are needed together.
Jarred said they are not red. So what if they say FU Red, we are going to distribute content for Sony. Err that won't happen because they are essentially the same entity, married at the hip. Why the secrecy about Odemax. Do they have a competitor that will steal their business away. Or maybe its that they have no commercial outlets signed up because the Red server hadsn't shipped yet let alone a cheap commercial projector with the server built in. Right now Odemax's only customers would be HT consumers. And there is no other entity distributing 4K content to us. So piss us off Odemax. Don't tell us anything and let your PARTNER who isn't you tell us your testing with producers with conversion software that isn't finished yet. ;;
Edited by mark haflich - 1/25/13 at 3:23pm

What is taking so long. I just want to know what films they will have lol

Odemax have never said anything else than that their content platform will be launched in March.

We of course hoped that there would be some content announcements in January at the Sundance Film Festival.

But that was only our hope, never a word of such promises from Odemax or Red.

The March launch might also not give a huge mass of content, that depends on who's on board from the start. And some content providers might even choose to delay any announcement to later.

So what do people expect; That suddenly they launch with a lot of promises of content ahead of the launch windows they announced December 2?
Just to satisfy a couple of impatient VW1000 owners that even Sony hasn't lifted a finger to provide content and wont do before the summer, at the earliest?

A quote from Jarred Land: "ODEMAX service Launches January at Sundance"

I don't think they said that there would be content announcements but it was assumed that if they had signed on any big names it would be announced so that they could attract more content producers. Still they did promise at least some kind of announcement/launch but there has been nothing except the twitter announcement that they've got the flu.

The thread title on reduser used to also have Odemax in it...it was edited out a little bit back.
Jarred and others were pimping Odemax announcing SOMETHING pretty hardcore in the forum and then all communication about it ceased just prior and during the festival.

You dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure out SOMETHING is going on.... we just don't know what yet.

It's very easy for Jarred to say that they are different companies now...but they sure were pimping them out in December. Even the Odemax "rep" that was posting answers to questions in the thread hasn't made an appearance to explain anything.

Now Jarred says "Odemax is not part of Red so we can't expect them to release all their info before it's ready"... That's the exact OPPOSITE of what was being said when RedRay was officially announced months ago.

very very very very odd

As a long term observer of the Recon forum at Red, where Jim Jannard posts regularly, what has happened at Sundance in relation to Redray and Odemax is par for the course and just what we can expect from Red.
To quote from Jim Jannard's signature : "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."
and he is most definitely true to his word, as history amply shows.
Nothing that Red says can be relied upon, which doesn't make them dishonest or un-reliable.
They are a young company embarking on a journey into new territory who operate in a particular manner, which they are totally open and honest about.
And they have faced up to the fact and understand that they are operating in the digital world, which operates quite differently from the old analog world, imo.
Some people dislike that way of doing things, which is understandable.
If we don't like it we have the choice of not doing business with them.
Believe what they say when you have their product (s) in your hands.
And even then you may well need to be cautious.
Edited by catonic - 1/26/13 at 7:41pm

Cool. It sounds like you are associated with Red.

Right now we very impatient 1000ES owners are the only customers for odemax right now.

Why the hell would any studeo sign up with Odemax? Red does not have projectors with servers in any commercial theater. The success of the whole scheme depends on taking over a faily large in number portion of the market that is on very shakey grounds, grounds where such theater do not presently have the funds to purchase digital and believe me it when purchased used is not all that expensive. 2KDCI is quite inexpensive used and I suspect somewhere near where the commercial Red projector will come out at. Tell me differently Cool, but the speckeling issue has not been solved and Red at this point can noit procure or make laser light sources at a price point where they can take over the projector market. Maybe it will happen but not now and not tomorrow.

So what does Red do. And the bull about beating Sony. Sony was right, it will have the first content delivery service. And it has content.

Why doesn't Red and Odemax be forth right. We are having problems in the following areas. and this is wehat you can expect over the next few months.Odemax should say it is not likely over the short term any major studeos will sign up because at this point we can't provide enough of a market where they could expect any significant return. This will change as more 4k displays come to market and their cost of acquisition lower. Red can not supply inexpensive commercial and consumer projectors right now and realisticall we are over a year off and maybe longer. There are substantial problems to be solved and we at Red are known for solving what others think is impossible. So stay tuned but don't look to red or Odemax as a near term solution.

I am definitely not associated with RED in anyway whatsoever.
But I know how to read and stick to facts and don't try to make up "unfulfilled promises" that are not made by RED or Odemax.

I have followed the content industry, CEM and RED for many years like most of you and learnt that they do not always operate in a linear and rational way.
If I had a dollar for each time I have shaken my head on how these industries operate, and more important how they communicate with their customers and how they promote their goods, I would have been a millionaire with a whiplash syndrome.

Understand how RED functions;
They continuously try to break the technical barriers in all they do, and are "super optimistic" about the possibilities and launch schedule.
This result in delays, either because they are not satisfied with what is achieved and development has to be repeated, or they have to scale back on their goals.
These delays result in that they at the same time think of other "new cool features" they can implement, which again cause further delays.

Take the RedRay player as an example.
It was first mentioned by Red several years ago. Has been shown and changed several times.
Now it is in production. But because they suddenly have found that they want to add H.264 and 2K to the specs., they have to add/rewrite the firmware, which cause some more delays(obviously).
The player also have to have FCC(?) certification before it is sold, which might cause more delays Red can't control.
RED have had the possibility to test the player on the various 4K projectors out there, but they have not been able to test them on the new 4K/UHD TVs that are just now appearing in the shops.
Maybe they initially (in December) thought they could get them earlier, but if that didn't happen, this is also a cause for delays.
RED have now gotten their hands on the Sony, LG and Toshiba 84" UHD TVs, and confirmed that the RedRay player works flawlessly with the Sony and LG, but with some workaround for the Toshiba because of the unconventional Toshiba inputs.

The above is just to illustrate reasons for what might cause some delays for the RedRay player, based solely on what RED themselves write on the RED Forum and nothing else, and might be totally wrong as it is pure speculations from me.

As for Odemax.
They are not a RED company. The trademark is registered to an individual that is not employed by RED. It is owned by a "foreign" company which probably is a "offshore company".
Most likely that someone was working on an idea to a distribution platform, presented it to Red, and Red found it to be good and helped them out. At the same time Red ensured that the distribution model had suffient quality for the RedRay player.
ODEMAX was first registered back in 2007.
They are not delayed as far as I can find.
But they deal with the movie industry, which are never rational and frequently paranoid and always have strange requirements for when and where their content association shall be known.

Important to know about the ODEMAX platform;
Odemax is not a distribution platform like Netflix, Amazon, Lovefilm or HBO. All these companies licence huge catalogues of film titles (or own them like HBO) and distributes this.
Odemax is a Technological distribution platform and will not themselves involve in acquire distribution rights to movie titles. This difference is important to understand.

Example; Even if Odemax announces that they have made a deal with a major studio, they have no control over which movie titles this studio will make available for download or how the studios channel will be promoted.

Odemax is purely a channel based distribution platform. If you own content, regardless of if you are a small independent film maker with ownership of one title or a major Hollywood studio, you can have a channel at Odemax. It is up to you how you market your content to the public so you have a revenue from your channel.
I very well understand the impatient.
Too bad the projector manufacturer Sony didn't offer a content solution a year ago to their customers. Then they would have had a tried platform to launch now when their 4K TV is in the shops, and not some vague over-hyped promises of "wonders to come".
If anybody deserves your rants, it is Sony!!
How many Blu-Ray titles did Sony (a content owner) have when Blu-Ray was launched back in 2006?
Why wouldn't they. Particularly for the HT marked, if the DRM is robust enough.
They would have full control of their own distribution without going through a third party like Netflix or Amazon. Can control in which territories their content will be available. But without needing to set up and maintain their own server and technical Internet platform. And they can do it in 4K, if they want to.
Is it possible that a big interest for using this for distribution of 2K material is the reason RED have added 2K/H.264 to the RedRay player recently?
The RED Cinema projector with the Odemax distribution platform is not intended for competing with the "Big Boys" Hollywood distribution system.
And as Red is not launching their projector now might be the same reason Barco and Christie, which both shows Laser projectors, are not selling them yet because of technical and Laser cost issues.
At this moment; What does Sony (a Hollywood Studio content owner) have that Red/Odemax doesn't have when it comes to 4K content distribution technical platform and server/content player??
About what exactly?
The reason why the RedRay player is not in your hands? Yeah they should. At the same time they promised the player in January, it's still some days left. What did your Bomb Squad rep. say when you asked why you haven't received your player yet?
Maybe the big studios (if there is any) don't want to announce anything yet?
The original scheduled launch of Odemax content platform is in March, if the scheduled holds which it frequently doesn't when Big Hollywood is involved.

ODEMAX is launched first and foremost as a distribution platform for Independent Film Makers and Distributors, not a Hollywood studio platform.
Nobody else have what Red and Odemax have in terms of distribution platform and playback hardware.

Sony in their usual over-hyped form announced at CES "The worlds first 4K video distribution service for consumers" coming this summer totally ignoring the fact that Red/Odemax exist. If they are not going to use Playstation 4 (most likely) for that platform they have to build it first.
And where is their "licensed server" solution with 5 movies. Anybody seen it? Will it work with VW1000?
In addition they announced "Blu-Ray Superbit" which is more a illustration of a typical Hollywood idiot announcement than anything else.

What Sony is doing is trying to create the impression that they are in control. Question is; Are they? Or are they scrambling in a hurry to do something they should have done long ago?

We don't know if Sony will be the "Bully" again and try to prevent Hollywood Studios from signing up to other platforms than their own.
It might be that politics in Hollywood have shifted and Studios are relieved to have a choice of platform and don't have to be forced to operate under Sony's umbrella.

Hopefully we will find out in the next six months how the 4K content distribution will be.

Everything I have written here regarding Red and Odemax is based on my understanding of reading forum posts about these companies. Nothing else!
I don't know if anything was edited out of the Redray Commentary thread.
Here are links to the most important post by the Odemax representative;
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90304-REDRAY-Comments&p=1112692&viewfull=1#post1112692
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90304-REDRAY-Comments&p=1110779&viewfull=1#post1110779
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90304-REDRAY-Comments&p=1110965&viewfull=1#post1110965
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90304-REDRAY-Comments&p=1110768&viewfull=1#post1110768
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90304-REDRAY-Comments&p=1113056&viewfull=1#post1113056

As for the comment from Red Reps; Click on the "Red Team" button in the red division bar between posts. There is a glitch somewhere where you get back to page1, but keep scrolling before the glitch and the RedTeam comments continuous.
Edited by coolscan - 1/26/13 at 8:58am

Right I was saying that since the initial buzz John, the Odemax red, hasn't posted a word about it. Looks like December 5th was his last post (or there abouts)

There were a lot of references to Sundance and it seems to just have whimpered out without much reasoning. I don't mind if they hit some snags but their approach to it seems a little awkward.

Keep in mind Sundance is a pretty big deal in the film world...so to just not show up or not say anything regarding it is definitely suspect. It's not like they were holding a press conference in their own warehouse on their own time.
It was Sundance Sundance Sundance.. and then radio silence

It seems like the market is posed for entries besides Odemax and entries that don't set up offshore to what avoid their contribution to our national economy. As I understand it, the Red software to convert any file to what will play on Redray is free or essentially free. So independents should just sell content on hard drives directly to owners of Redray players. So one has to wait a few days for mail delivery. Who needs Odemax, let them drown offshore, and let the indy sell independently and not give 30% of the income to Odemax. Maybe different for commercial theaters but not for the home consumer. For the cost of a website, the Indy can eliminate Odemax and based on their communications from Sundance they should be eliminated. Looks like pie in the sky.The indy could provide a license key for the display for a limited period by the owner of the Redray player. The key could be sent by internet without excessive data requirements. Seems like a no brainer for soeone to start a promotion site to sell or promote the content and do it at say 10% or normal today retail markups.

When I bought my 1000ES I had no expectations as to when 4K content would come. Just got a damn good projector.

Red was the one that said content is comming soon and we have a production line rolloing off players for shipment in January.

OK. I get it that now they need to add the Bluray codec. How coul;d they ever not have included that in the first place. There is so much 2K content out there and very little 4K.

And Red, not Barco etc, said we have a projector almost ready and don't buy anything else in essence ours will be laser and under $10K. Just wait. Then they say its still months off and the commercial one will come first. So Cool, are they interested in selling to theaters and screening rooms. They are bringing those out first, so they say now. But if you look at Ted's face when he says 4 to 6 months, you know he doesn't really believe that. At Cedia in late Sept, we will see consumer 4HD or 4K projectors, bulb lit, at under $15K MSRP and streeting for under $10K.

My rant. All I see are inconsistencies in stories. I feel the player will be shipping shortly, certainly by springtime. And some bright producers will cut odemax out.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/26/13 at 4:38pm

I think the question is why would the studios want to piss off apple, google, amazon, netflix, sony etc. by supporting a small time competitor. It is hardly even worth the paper work to put out content for a few thousand customers.

Some good movies in 4K, you kind of need those. The redray/odemax system is really nice but there is no reason why Sony will not just replicate it with something like the PS4.

Why pay Odemax 30% to be a middleman to the consumer?.

You mean like Apple, Google, Amazon, Microsoft etc. etc. that all have offshore companies?
Each player comes with one RR encode license. Additional licenses is $20 each.
No one hinders them from selling content independent of Odemax.
That has been possible for years. But how many is doing it? Even big Hollywood studios doesn't have their own content shops. They use independent shops and Internet to sell their content.
Film makers, Producers, Studios and content licenser distributors concentrate on what they are good at and leave the direct to customers sales management to services that specialise in exactly that.

Why should one be more critical to Odemax than any other sales channel?
Difference is that content owners does have more direct control on the Odemax platform, cut out some middlemen and still own their content without the need to licences that content to Odemax.
With for example Netflix and other Internet delivery services, content owners have to honour licence contracts that run for years. With Odemax they don't have such contracts.
Odemax is just a better delivery platform than the others. Specially directed towards independent movie makers and producers that is largely locked out of other distribution platforms.

RedRay is "married" to the Odemax distribution platform as only way of distributing content. Odemax is just one possible service.
Here is what Jarred answered yesterday to a question about possible disc format for distribution and how content could be distributed outside of Odemax. Red have never said anything about content outside of that Odemax platform launch in March. How much content will be available at launch depends wholly on content owners.
RED is not a content producer or distributor. They have no control over content for the RedRay player.

As to why the player is a little delayed. As I have mentioned before; I believe it is player software development. Look at this post from Jarred 01-25-2013 and the answer is there; The RedRay player was always meant to be a way to play 4K content. It was not meant to be a competitor in the 2K marked. It can up-convert to 4K and down-convert to 2K. It could play DVD and BD from a external player.
My guess for the added H.264 2K support is a request from content owners at the Odemax platform.
Barco and Christie have been dragging their Laser projectors around the world for demonstrations for a year now, but they won't cost $10-15K.
So will these bulb lit 4K projectors that you think you will see at Cedia be able to project 4K resolution for each eye? And will they have the same color quality that a Laser projector can (and bulb lifetime)?
And who says that the Red Laser projector will not ship before Cedia, except your speculations?
A critical view and rants are OK! But you are way ahead of the curve ranting about timelines that have never been announced.
Only delay so far is the slight delay of the Redray player, and we talking in terms of days or weeks.
Is this the first time you have experienced delays of announced consumer equipment? I think not.

I dropped out of being an early adopter years ago because I have been burnt too many times on quality issues and delivery delays and don't want the stress.

Me thinks you have more fun ranting ( and perhaps a little bored about a rather slow AVS forum compared to years ago) than that you are really stressed about this.

Do you seriously ask that question?
How high is the percentage of the purchase price when you buy a DVD,BD or stream a movie that doesn't reach the content producer like the Hollywood studios?
Where does the money come from that pay for the technical platform when Netflix streams a movie?
If producers could sell their movies directly to the customers without paying the middle Men, why don't they?

I am not stressed at all by any of this.

And why are you so defensive of all of them.

Thirty percent is rediculous. 30% were effective brick and morter margins. Are you serious? Amazon, ebay etc operate at margins less than 10%. You can not be serious in defending thirty percent. And what's with they do it and so it must be OK for THEM to do it.

Coolscan. Redray should hire you. You use the term We. You try to make perfect sense oif everything that has happened. I believe you but they should be paying you.

Now you say 2K support was added probably at the request of content owners at the Odemax platform.

ODEMAX. You listening. If you have content owners, tell us. Even if you can't be specific, We have X independents with 2K and 4k content, yada yada.


No. Don't tell us anything. Its OK. Its better that way. We do not need to know anything. We are idiots and insignificant impatient 1000ES owners. Blow us off. Thank you.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/27/13 at 6:48am

If they would be pissed; Why aren't they pissed off already by all the other streaming services in operation?. Do you have any idea of how many streaming services in operation worldwide in the same markets as Apple and Netflix with the same content they have?
There are already hundreds of them in operation, and they will all have 4K content down the line.
New XBOX will be one of the closest competitors for content delivery to the PS4 and so will coming Apple TV.
Netflix already testing 4K. Youtube had 4K, then scaled it down and will soon launch a proper 4K platform. Roku launch a new Streaming Stick that will be able to stream 4K content and id the preferred solution for many TV manufacturers that rather leave the Internet/streaming to Roku than build their own solution.

I don't know where people get the idea that Odemax and Redray is the only solution for getting 4K content in the future. But it is possible that Odemax provide a better solution than other similar distributors for 4K film lovers of quality content. There are reasons Red have teamed up with Odemax and not some other platform like YouTube or Vimeo. Red have said that Odemax was the only platform that "Got_It_Right".

And I have to repeat again that Odemax is NOT set to first and foremost to compete in the commercial space.

They want first to be a service to the hundreds of movie titles that are independent produced outside of the Hollywood studio system. Movies that have no or limited cinema release. Movies that can't get cinema screening because the Hollywood Studios have occupied all the screening time at 90% of the cinemas and thereby effectively block the possibility of screening their movies.

This is not how the movie distribution worked 10-15 years ago, when the movie menu was much more diverse and gave talented directors possibility to showcase their movies.
Now they are wholly dependent that their movie is bought by someone from the big distribution systems. Which means they have to relay on some individual buyer that like their movie. And they don't pay very well.

In one of the posts from the Odemax rep. I linked above how the people behind Odemax think about the platform.
As there seems to be some confusion about Odemax or lack of information to why Odemax is slightly different than other similar services (blame that on Odemax failure to ptoperly present their platform) I post some more of the posts from December 2 - 2012 from the Odemax rep. with some of the questions he answers.
Hope this clear up some misconception about Odemax. It would be great if this platform becomes a success, but it is not guaranteed. Let them get time to grow.

NB; The people (at least some) are coming from Hollywood movie making background, so it is not some people from outside the system that have to start the process to get contacts and meetings inside the system. This gives some hope that we also will see some of the "big" movies on this platform.

If I recall correctly itunes has the same 30 percent cut. It's high but they are the only ones that can online deliver directly to apple devices. Odemax is probably going to get some kind of similar exclusivity.

2K & 4k are in the same market, the market of selling movies. The Sony super blu-ray or whatever it will be called could be a better product if redray doesn't get any decent movies.

I'm also sceptical in that the crimson projector will be a success either. Maybe in post houses and high end HT. It's unlikely that it will be DCI compliant and that will rule out almost all cinemas and some post houses that wants to master DCP's.

Then I appoigise for missunderstanding you.
I just want to clear up the misconceptions and critics of things that hasn't happened yet.
I have never seen any company that has been a "victim" of so much FUD as RED have when the comes to their cameras. And it is still going on in the movie businesses , repeatedly reported from people experiencing this and posting their stories on the Red forum. Seriously doubt the "professionalism" of people making movies.
At least here on AVS it is possible to avoid the same problem by clearing up facts before the misconceptions spread to other arenas.

I like Red and their business model because they are a disruptive company in a world where technical developments have been dictated from Japan.
Red also try to brake technical barriers.
And film and cameras interest me.
Neither you nor I know what the accurate terms of the Odemax contracts, and what 30% will give you of service. If it is too high, I am sure that they will hear about it and have to make adjustments.
Until then it is not much to discuss.
I take that as a compliment.
Just to clarify; When I use the term we; I mean We as in us consumers.

I think Red always have been a very bad communicator that cause a lot of confusion. I don't know if it is on purpose to keep discussios and speculations going, or if they are unaware of how much confusion they create. Jannard is an old hand at promotion from his Oakly days, so I hope they know how bad they are. But sometimes they seems surprised of the confusion, like; "but we have explained this".
And then you have Ted from Red that travels the worlds and is the "face of Red" in interviews, "the worlds most enthusiastic man", and talk a lot, using hundreds of words to explain very little, and is totally unable to put the simplest of information into a easily understandable concept.
But he gets very long interview time out of it.
Just my logical guess.
If it had been me running the Odemax show, I would have done a lot of press to also promote the platform to the consumers. They are the hardest to reach and take a lot of time to react.
The only "known" promotion Odemax have done till now are the few posts on the Red forum in beginning of December.
Doesn't help them much to launch content in March if there are no consumers that is aware the content can be purchased.

It always surprise me that CEMs doesn't communicate better with the public and answer legitimate questions. It seems like it is a part of some sort of a culture that no one are able to break.
Even Red that have their own forum is not able to fully utilise that platform. But at least they are the only company where you in fact can reach the ears of the CEOs.

Thank you for that information: It back my argument.

Odemax delivers exclusively to the RedRay player, if nothing have changed lately. But I doubt they have title exclusivity, but I guess iTunes doesn't have title exclusivity either.
There will be a lot of 4K platforms in the years to come, including satellite delivery.
It is mainly meant to serve independent small cinemas, boutique cinemas and Art houses that are too large (throw distance) for regular consumer projectors.
And it will probably cost less than the Sony,Barco,Christie Laser cinema projectors.

It also delivers 3D in 4K resolution for each eye in HFR up to 60fps. Which the competition might have problems with because the Red projectors (as far as we know) is essential a single chip projector with two chips (dual head) which would be a problem for Three chip projectors.
It is also DCI compliant (DCI pass-through in the on-board RedRay player).
The biggest draw back is if they don't add a active 3D solution so owners need to invest in silver screens.

Wish they went DLP, but I guess that is out of the question, both because it would raise the price and they would be dependent on TI for further technical developments.

All DCI servers except the ones integrated into sony projectors only work if the projector supports cinelink TLS encryption which is owned by T.I and I doubt they will license it without their 4k DMD:s. If they go that route it's going to be as expensive as the other DCI projectors. Arthouse screens can get a S2K series DCI projector with an integrated server for $ 35K, a server that has dual link SDI(doesn't support HFR so becoming rare) costs $ 15-20K and if you add to that $ 20-30K for the crimson projector it's not going to be any cheaper. Arthouses that haven't by now converted to digital aren't looking for 4K, they want cheap 2K. There is also the question of technical support, Barco, Christie and Nec all have hundreds of service technicians around the world and most locations can be reached within one day if a projector brakes down. Red has no local dealer network that can handle repairs on site. If a arthouse buy a more expensive system that can't play encrypted DCP:s and has no local technical support in their area they are not being very smart.

No DCI projector or server support HFR 4K in 3D so there will not be much movies made for that if any. There is a proposal to put 48fps 4K 2D into the DCI spec but 48fps 2K in 2D hasn't gained any interest by movie makers altough it is supported by all DCI systems.

Red is getting late into the game, if they would have developed a DCI compliant product when the digital cinema roll-out started they could have been an alternative but now they only have the high end home theater market left for them. The current DCI projectors are expected to last for about ten years before they need to be replaced so maybe Red will have a ready product by then.

If the Redray codec DRM is as robust as the DCI DRM there is no reason that cinemas that use this could not get content downloaded to the player via Odemax.
Nothing is locked to DCI, it is just that it has been the only format alternative till now. It is the content owners that decide.
If the Redray DRM get the confidence of the content owners for delivery to HT in 4K, then there is no reason it can't be delivered for cinema screening.
We don't know the price of the Crimson projector.
Who says it's more expensive than a 2K cinema projector?
Which arthouse would say no to a 4K projector that isn't more expensive than a 2K projector and comes with an integrated distribution and delivery system? Redray/Projector up-converts any format to 4K. Red have been for many years servicing thousands of cameras spread all over the world. They are also expanding their representation and service centres all over the world. They are not in the beginners game any more.
They will soon. The Hobbit is in the process of rendering out a HFR 4K 3D version. It is just a matter of time.
And why not build a projector that can tackle future formats if you can?
Red is not in the "Obsolescence Obsolete" game like other companies that build equipment in such a way that it will be outdated in a calculated number of years.
You will be surprised how much interest there will be for HFR 3D in the years to come by film makers. Cinema owners all over the world didn't fork out $10000 par projector for just showing three Hobbit movies. The studios had to promise them a future. Development in the world is continues.
Barco, Christie, Nec & Sony also have to continue selling projector for years to come to continue their existence, so you could use the same argument for them.

As I have said before: Red projectors, Redray & Odemax are not trying to compete in the upper markets.
Red are doing this because they see an opening for a price & quality product that could fill a gap in a market that is not serviced in that way by other players.
With all things RED, they are doing things because they want to bring professional quality to the market at a price-point that can enable more people to engage at a lower entry cost.

It is important to understand that Red is different than other companies. They don't make equipment because it is a smart business model and hope to make money. They make stuff that they want to own themselves but can't buy anywhere. And of course hope to earn enough to continue making new stuff.
That was the reason Jannard started Red. And that is the reason they continue making new products and expand their field of engagement.

When discussing Red and trying to understand what and why they do things; Try to think a little outside the Box.

Fair enough provided they deliver the server box soon. The laser, lens, are in my opinionare not likely to be reduced in cost in the one or two year future for Red to meet its $10K target. Likewise there is no abswer in sight to solve the speckle problem that lasers have..

Let me ask a question. Will the Red server be able to accept 4K content converted by the Red plug in through the card slot or the drive slot? Thanks in advance.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/27/13 at 8:17pm