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Redray 4K player with Odemax -Could this be the better than Bluray we have all been lloking for? - Page 4

post #91 of 222
1/14/13 at 10:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Now, digitally, we can shoot many more frames per second without increasing the the capture and reproduction costs. By shooting at a higher rate, film canlook like high quality video, moreover athigher rates it can exceed video.

Storage is not free however. Run at 48fps and you just doubled the storage requirements. Bandwidth is not free either. Remember DI work is all done uncompressed and some features take over a year to complete. Where do you keep that equivalent million feet of raw camera footage?

Anyway you cut it 48fps takes twice as much of whatever as 24fps. Twice the film OR twice the storage, twice the processing bandwidth. There is no free lunch.
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post #92 of 222
1/15/13 at 3:35am
Glimme. I would assume that the digital storage costs would be far less than the equivalent raw film and film processing costs. i don't think it would even be close but I am just guessing.
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post #93 of 222
1/15/13 at 5:45am
When Sony announced at CES "The world first 4K distribution system" that would launched in the summer. It is possible that this will be PS4.

Last two days "rumours" of launches for PS4 and XBOX have been heating up. First in an interview with Hiroshi Sakamoto, VP of Sony Home Entertainment in a Chilean newspaper indicating that PS4 will launch at E3 in June or possibly right before, in late May.

Today the rumours strengthened from other sources of an earlier announcement; "We hear that both Sony and Microsoft are targeting special Apple-style press conferences to unveil their platforms near the Game Developers Conference in late March".

A PS4 as a 4K distribution platform makes more sense than that Sony should build a separate platform for 4K distribution to the 4K/UHDTV market.
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post #94 of 222
1/15/13 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Glimme. I would assume that the digital storage costs would be far less than the equivalent raw film and film processing costs. i don't think it would even be close but I am just guessing.

Well yes and no. There is indeed a huge savings in the lack of need for distribution prints. But the storage costs on the production side are in fact higher or on par with film stock and processing.

But as we know storage keeps getting cheaper and compression better.

Consider this though: Would you rather run one 48fps project through your operation at 1.3 times profit or two 24fps projects at 2x the profit.
Quote:
Anyway you cut it 48fps takes twice as much of whatever as 24fps.

My quote was not 100% accurate. There is one place where 48fps is not twice 24fps. That is in what a studio is willing pay for twice the frame rate rolleyes.gif
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post #95 of 222
1/15/13 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

When Sony announced at CES "The world first 4K distribution system" that would launched in the summer. It is possible that this will be PS4.

Last two days "rumours" of launches for PS4 and XBOX have been heating up. First in an interview with Hiroshi Sakamoto, VP of Sony Home Entertainment in a Chilean newspaper indicating that PS4 will launch at E3 in June or possibly right before, in late May.

Today the rumours strengthened from other sources of an earlier announcement; "We hear that both Sony and Microsoft are targeting special Apple-style press conferences to unveil their platforms near the Game Developers Conference in late March".

A PS4 as a 4K distribution platform makes more sense than that Sony should build a separate platform for 4K distribution to the 4K/UHDTV market.

The PS4 angle sure makes sense............the question is will the PS4 come equipped with a BluRay drive, even one that can read more than two layers, if so there is a strong possibility for 4K BluRay down the pipeline. It appears current BluRay sales are on the increase 8% plus, they are not going to make waves now that may stem that increase till the 4K disk format is ready to launch.

Surely they will try the download model first.........then hopefully the disk at an increased quality.

I'm on a 100Mbit/s connection, but in real dowload terms it would take 3-5 hours to down load a 40GB file.........theoretically should take 1.5 hours or so....but not so. Thus I'm favoring the disk model for my circumstances.................bring on the 1080/4K twin disk pack and give the DVD copy the flick!! biggrin.gif
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post #96 of 222
1/15/13 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Storage is not free however. Run at 48fps and you just doubled the storage requirements. Bandwidth is not free either. Remember DI work is all done uncompressed and some features take over a year to complete. Where do you keep that equivalent million feet of raw camera footage?

Anyway you cut it 48fps takes twice as much of whatever as 24fps. Twice the film OR twice the storage, twice the processing bandwidth. There is no free lunch.

Yeah but those are facts. Is Redray saying the 4k player will do 48fps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

It appears current BluRay sales are on the increase 8% plus, they are not going to make waves now that may stem that increase till the 4K disk format is ready to launch.

That sure explains why so many media retailers went belly up in the past two years. Such sales claims should be taken with a lot of salt.
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post #97 of 222
1/15/13 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

Yeah but those are facts. Is Redray saying the 4k player will do 48fps?
That sure explains why so many media retailers went belly up in the past two years. Such sales claims should be taken with a lot of salt.

Only saying that BluRay sales have increase over the previous year.........DVD sales have decreased, however the greater $value sales are still DVD. I'm sure the remaining companies are still making money from BluRay.
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post #98 of 222
1/15/13 at 8:00pm
Quote:
That sure explains why so many media retailers went belly up in the past two years.

We are all buying our Blu Rays and DVD's on line. Did Amazon go belly up? I think not. And Best Buy and Walmart are doing fine too.
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post #99 of 222
1/16/13 at 3:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

Yeah but those are facts. Is Redray saying the 4k player will do 48fps?
Redray can do 24, 25, 30, 48, 50, 60 fps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

The PS4 angle sure makes sense............the question is will the PS4 come equipped with a BluRay drive, even one that can read more than two layers, if so there is a strong possibility for 4K BluRay down the pipeline. It appears current BluRay sales are on the increase 8% plus, they are not going to make waves now that may stem that increase till the 4K disk format is ready to launch.

Surely they will try the download model first.........then hopefully the disk at an increased quality.

I'm on a 100Mbit/s connection, but in real dowload terms it would take 3-5 hours to down load a 40GB file.........theoretically should take 1.5 hours or so....but not so. Thus I'm favoring the disk model for my circumstances.................bring on the 1080/4K twin disk pack and give the DVD copy the flick!! biggrin.gif

4K movie download or 4K BD encoded with HEVC or .RED will probably in most cases be not more than 25GB without a lot of menus and extras depending on the length of the movie at bitrates between 20-25Mb/s.
Edited by coolscan - 1/16/13 at 3:20am
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post #100 of 222
1/16/13 at 3:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post


4K movie download or 4K BD encoded with HEVC or .RED will probably in most cases be not more than 25GB without a lot of menus and extras depending on the length of the movie at bitrates between 20-25Mb/s.


In that case upping the bitrate for 4K BluRay as well dual layering should see an exceptional end result, using what is tried and true.......I do hope 4K Bluray does come into fruition.
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post #101 of 222
1/16/13 at 5:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

We are all buying our Blu Rays and DVD's on line. Did Amazon go belly up? I think not. And Best Buy and Walmart are doing fine too.

Craig. Come on. Best Buy is up for sale and is not doing fine at all


4K optical disc in my opinion will not happen. Of course the technology to do it is there but optical discs etc are archaeic. It is an inefficient method of distribution. the world changes and we don't like it. memory is cheap and is getting cheaper. There is no reason to keep things on an optical disc. There is really no need to distrubute data that way. And whatever feeble arguments may be out there (you will have to down load it over a considerable period of time), will vanish with futher technological advancements.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/16/13 at 8:49am
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post #102 of 222
1/16/13 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

In that case upping the bitrate for 4K BluRay as well dual layering should see an exceptional end result, using what is tried and true.......I do hope 4K Bluray does come into fruition.
4K at a 20 feet screen at 20Mb/s is undistinguishable from 4K at higher bitrates is what Red claim.
The reason is that 4K originals (particularly from a cameras or scans with 2-3 times the 4K resolution) compress much easier than 2K original material because of the cleaner more detailed source. It is all in the mathematics (algorithm) and some help from the "Magic Pixels" man.
We will see when the equipment is released, or if someone from AVS with experience from image quality for consumer products visits one of the regular demos at Red Studios in LA. Why hasn't that happened already BTW?
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post #103 of 222
1/16/13 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

Yeah but those are facts. Is Redray saying the 4k player will do 48fps?

My comments are mainly on the production side where the data is handled in uncompressed form. On the distribution side, yes there is not much difference in cost between 24 and 48fps as the DCI files are rather highly compressed.

The problem of economics is on the production side, not the distribution side.

JMO, but I would not be surprised if initial 4K releases are largely from indie producers. They have much less overhead and studio politics to deal with. They have more control over the creative decision process meaning that that can more easily manage the large file sets. IOW, they can make final editorial decisions early on and reuse storage much quicker than a large studio production.
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post #104 of 222
1/16/13 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Craig. Come on. Best Buy is up for sale and is not doing fine at all


4K optical disc in my opinion will not happen. Of course the technology to do it is there but optical discs etc are archaeic. It is an inefficient method of distribution. the world changes and we don't like it. memory is cheap and is getting cheaper. There is no reason to keep things on an optical disc. There is really no need to distrubute data that way. And whatever feeble arguments may be out there (you will have to down load it over a considerable period of time), will vanish with futher technological advancements.

Also note that the studios never liked the idea of consumers "owning" permanent copies of their work. Consumer tape and disc technology made this mandatory but no longer. A download model keeps the content owner in complete control. I am not endorsing this, just pointing out the obvious.

And consider that for current and legacy works, 4K is the end of the line. Once a consumer has a 4K copy, how do you resell that in the future? 35mm film is 4K or less. New 4K digital camera features are forever locked into 4K resolution. Not much of a market for a remastered 4K version of an older 4K consumer version!
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post #105 of 222
1/16/13 at 3:09pm
Good points Glimmie. I think it will be a long time before as many people that can buy or rent a Blu Ray ( or a new 4K version of Blu Ray ) like they do now, will be able to download a 4K movie. I don't trust providers to be able to offer that without compression artifacts and other problems. They can barely get HDTV right 1/2 the time now.
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post #106 of 222
1/16/13 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Redray can do 24, 25, 30, 48, 50, 60 fps.

Redray what? You writing about the player or something else?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

We are all buying our Blu Rays and DVD's on line. Did Amazon go belly up? I think not. And Best Buy and Walmart are doing fine too.

You speak only for yourself. Amazing anti-logic thou, only Amazon left will equal blu-ray doing great, like celebrating having one finger on each hand instead of five. This getting off-topic anyway.
Edited by wuther - 1/16/13 at 6:11pm
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post #107 of 222
1/17/13 at 1:23am
coolscan means the player:

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post #108 of 222
1/17/13 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

coolscan means the player:

It lists HDMI as the output cables, there are claims HDMI cannot do 4K 48fps never mind 60fps. I have no personal experience with such things. Still the 48, 50, 60 fps could be for 1080p only.
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post #109 of 222
1/18/13 at 5:27am
I think the present HDMI can not do 48 fps. But future HDMI should be able to and besides Red plans to build its servers into its coming projectors and wii probably devise its own interface so to speak from its built in server to the projector drivers or whatever.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/18/13 at 8:28am
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post #110 of 222
1/18/13 at 8:30am
Just got an email from Red saying that before shipment I need to agree to a software license. i accepted the terms of the agreement included in the email.
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post #111 of 222
1/18/13 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Just got an email from Red saying that before shipment I need to agree to a software license. i accepted the terms of the agreement included in the email.
So soon you can create your own Redray (.red) material if you have access to 4K original material. wink.gif
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post #112 of 222
1/18/13 at 9:52am
Any expected content anytime soon? (from Odemax)... Anything??? Throw us a bone.
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post #113 of 222
1/18/13 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

It lists HDMI as the output cables, there are claims HDMI cannot do 4K 48fps never mind 60fps. I have no personal experience with such things. Still the 48, 50, 60 fps could be for 1080p only.

You can split the stream across multiple HDMI ports to get more bandwidth. This is how they do 2K and 4K with HDSDI. I'm not saying RED is doing this, just that it's possible and often done.
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post #114 of 222
1/18/13 at 10:51am
There is nothing I can find anywhere on the internet about what Odemax is saying, showing etc, at Sundance. I would hope that Red has some content that can be ordered at time of my Redray server. maybe some 4K content on a hard drive. If not, it will make a great model sailboat anchor.
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post #115 of 222
1/18/13 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

You can split the stream across multiple HDMI ports to get more bandwidth. This is how they do 2K and 4K with HDSDI. I'm not saying RED is doing this, just that it's possible and often done.

I was thinking that but what 4K displays support multiple simultaneous HDMI input? My guess is next to none.
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post #116 of 222
1/19/13 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

I was thinking that but what 4K displays support multiple simultaneous HDMI input? My guess is next to none.

It would be great if they did, then they could take up to 4 separate 1080P sources and have multi-view. Would be a slick alternative to the current solution of multiple flat planels for those that like to watch lots of sports games at once.
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post #117 of 222
1/19/13 at 6:35pm
Four of one of the worst connector designs conceived by man.
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post #118 of 222
1/19/13 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Four of one of the worst connector designs conceived by man.

I agree with you, but it is a matter of perspective -
I'm certain that Intel and the other members of the Hdmi licensing board think it's one of the greatest connectors ever. It makes them a ton of money. Also, I'll bet their marketing teams would go on at great lengths to tell you how great hdmi is... all that nonsense about physically breaking, to flaky electrical connections to hdmi's "protocol" (along with hdcp) and how often devices just hang or have to be power cycled. Yup, hdmi. It's a winner.

Hmm, and if this post gets deleted we'll just assume that avs gets sponsorship from them.
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post #119 of 222
1/20/13 at 7:43am
I doubt that would happen regardless of whether they sponser the forum. If you attacked them calling them bad things, then you might get banned and your post deleted. But fair comments regarding strengths and weaknesses of certain things is in the spirit of what this forum is about aside from making money for its owners. Profit requires paid ads and getting that its all about maximizing thenumber of hits and that would not be consistent with baning users merely they didn't like something about a sponsor's product.
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post #120 of 222
1/20/13 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

I was thinking that but what 4K displays support multiple simultaneous HDMI input? My guess is next to none.

I don't know but the multiple HDMI inputs could be "hidden" in a sense. If the display has multiple HDMI inputs for different sources like most displays do today, you could have a combine feature under menu control. Just speculating.
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