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Silicondust HDHomerun + DLNA = LiveTV on almost any device? - Page 5

post #121 of 181
12/13/12 at 8:54am
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Originally Posted by vladd View Post

You were a great help to me and Martin with NextPVR stuff and thank you for that.

Didn't know you were involved with that smile.gif
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post #122 of 181
12/13/12 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

My understanding is that they will need to certify any app that uses a previously uncertified playback pipeline. AFAIK, the only PC pipeline that is certified is WMC's which uses undocumented features in DS - so it can't be reused.

This was clarified before the most recent FCC CableCARD ruling. Your understand was the popular one, SageTV requested the FCC force CableLabs to not certify software, but the NCTA clarified in comments to the FCC that individual software didn't need to be certified. So the FCC didn't mention it in the mandate because it wasn't currently required.
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post #123 of 181
12/13/12 at 9:04am
whurlston = vladd
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post #124 of 181
12/13/12 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

This was clarified before the most recent FCC CableCARD ruling. Your understand was the popular one, SageTV requested the FCC force CableLabs to not certify software, but the NCTA clarified in comments to the FCC that individual software didn't need to be certified. So the FCC didn't mention it in the mandate because it wasn't currently required.
But you are saying it's required now with the most recent ruling?
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post #125 of 181
12/13/12 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

I would love to be proved wrong, but I'm thinking more like a few years. DVR development is apparently pretty complex, and even the new XBMC PVR add-on, which has long been in development, is quite rudimentary compared to WMC (no series scheduling for instance). This DLNA implementation will be even more rudimentary than XBMC PVR. I don't see Silicon Dust just pulling out an amazing DVR in a few months time.
I'm very excited for this development, especially if it supports copy once. However, if you have a Windows 7 PC laying around (which most people do), why not just use WMC in conjunction with an Xbox 360 extender (something else most people have)?
.

Because the 360 doesn't support high bit rate mkv or menus in ripped BR/DVD.
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post #126 of 181
12/13/12 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncarty97 View Post

Because the 360 doesn't support high bit rate mkv or menus in ripped BR/DVD.

I wish it did too, and that's why I use multiple devices. I suppose if you absolutely must use only one device and are willing to sacrifice the program guide and DVR features WMC offers, then it would be a nice thing to have.
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post #127 of 181
12/13/12 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

This was clarified before the most recent FCC CableCARD ruling. Your understand was the popular one, SageTV requested the FCC force CableLabs to not certify software, but the NCTA clarified in comments to the FCC that individual software didn't need to be certified. So the FCC didn't mention it in the mandate because it wasn't currently required.

Do you know what (besides the DCT) needs to be certified by CL? My understanding was that the DCT and the protected path playback pipeline needed to be certified. The clarification was that multiple apps can use the same certified pipeline (like DirectShow) w/o re-certifying. So if that's correct, then SageTV could have reused WMC's playback engine if they had documented how to do it. MF implements protected path in a documented way (AFAIK it's the only publicly documented way to enable HDCP on a PC), but AFAIK it is has not been certified by CableLabs.

It just doesn't seem possible that CableLabs would be so strict about everything else and not care about an easy attack vector.
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post #128 of 181
12/13/12 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

Do you know what (besides the DCT) needs to be certified by CL? My understanding was that the DCT and the protected path playback pipeline needed to be certified. The clarification was that multiple apps can use the same certified pipeline (like DirectShow) w/o re-certifying. So if that's correct, then SageTV could have reused WMC's playback engine if they had documented how to do it. MF implements protected path in a documented way (AFAIK it's the only publicly documented way to enable HDCP on a PC), but AFAIK it is has not been certified by CableLabs.
It just doesn't seem possible that CableLabs would be so strict about everything else and not care about an easy attack vector.
You still wouldn't have been able to use WMC's playback engine because of the audio decoder. Dolby only licensed it for MS applications so there would be no sound outside of WMC/WMP. Which brings up another point: any black box app would need to license Dolby AC-3 (and DD+?) and possibly the MPEG-LA MPEG-2 portfolio . (It's not clear to me if an ATSC portfolio license is required for a PC application or not but it includes an MPEG2 decoder license).
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post #129 of 181
12/13/12 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

You still wouldn't have been able to use WMC's playback engine because of the audio decoder. Dolby only licensed it for MS applications so there would be no sound outside of WMC/WMP. Which brings up another point: any black box app would need to license Dolby AC-3 (and DD+?) and possibly the MPEG-LA MPEG-2 portfolio . (It's not clear to me if an ATSC portfolio license is required for a PC application or not but it includes a decoder license).

Very true. Forgot about that.
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post #130 of 181
12/13/12 at 10:12am
Settting aside the technology for a moment, it seems like the main issue with a project like this is in generating a positive ROI, otherwise wouldn't Silicondust, Ceton or some other company have already done it?

The demand is there for an alternative to WMC that can play protected CATV, particularly since WMC is on life support at Microsoft, but maybe there just isn't enough volume to yield a decent ROI.
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post #131 of 181
12/13/12 at 10:18am
If that were true, ceton wouldn't be doing the echo and neither of them would be doing tuners either.
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post #132 of 181
12/13/12 at 10:34am
I think it is safe to assume that the requirements are pretty far outside any open source project's budget. Otherwise we would've seen 1394 recording of protected content by now. I believe that SD will reveal "phase 2" at CES which will be a complete solution with recording, epg, etc.
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post #133 of 181
12/13/12 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

I believe that SD will reveal "phase 2" at CES which will be a complete solution with recording, epg, etc.

"Announce w/ partners" probably smile.gif
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post #134 of 181
12/13/12 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

If that were true, ceton wouldn't be doing the echo and neither of them would be doing tuners either.

At a given volume, you have to be able charge enough per unit in order to get positive ROI. How much are you willing to pay for a WMC equivalent and how many do you expect to sell?
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post #135 of 181
12/13/12 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

I believe that SD will reveal "phase 2" at CES which will be a complete solution with recording, epg, etc.

That would be a relief.

Silicondust is really an engineering company though and not a software house so I wonder who they might be underwriting or partnering with if in fact they are putting something together.
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post #136 of 181
12/13/12 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by t-c View Post

That would be a relief.
Silicondust is really an engineering company though and not a software house so I wonder who they might be underwriting or partnering with if in fact they are putting something together.

.. Ceton? smile.gif

That would be a Christmas Miracle
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post #137 of 181
12/13/12 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by snappjay View Post

.. Ceton? smile.gif
That would be a Christmas Miracle

Ha, the two don't exactly meet for beers at CES now. The only one I'd even guess at would be Elgato, but that's only because they are an existing partner. My next guess would be an existing DLNA DMS software provider, but honestly I'm not familiar enough with them to pin it down.
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post #138 of 181
12/13/12 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

I think it is safe to assume that the requirements are pretty far outside any open source project's budget. Otherwise we would've seen 1394 recording of protected content by now. I believe that SD will reveal "phase 2" at CES which will be a complete solution with recording, epg, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

"Announce w/ partners" probably smile.gif
That's what I'm expecting as well.
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post #139 of 181
12/13/12 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by snappjay View Post

.. Ceton? smile.gif
That would be a Christmas Miracle

Collaboration or Competition?

Which breeds better product development?

It could be both IMHO.
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post #140 of 181
12/13/12 at 11:26am
I think they should ALL get together to figure out the path forward, post WMC... after that, no holds barred.
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post #141 of 181
12/13/12 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by snappjay View Post

.. Ceton? smile.gif
That would be a Christmas Miracle
The announcement will come right after the one for the joint Microsoft/Apple venture to create an open source OS.
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post #142 of 181
12/13/12 at 11:39am
LOL!
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post #143 of 181
1/8/13 at 1:14pm
SiliconDust has announced DLNA support for their HDHomeRun Prime, but we still need a device with DTCP-IP support to play protected content (like that from Bright House Networks - where everything is copy-once protected).

I'd really want to use XBMC to watch TV and my movies - it's a great interface and far above Windows Media Center (WMC). I'm looking for alternatives to WMC (which is the ONLY one to support this now).

Does anyone think that XBMC will ever be able to do this via an add-on (pay or free)? I'd be willing to pay for an add-on if I could watch TV through XBMC (that supported protected content).

Wonder about these
http://www.digion.com/en/pf/dtcpipdms/index.htm
and
https://www.elliptictech.com/en/products-a-solutions/applications-software/dtcp
They seem to have software and an SDK

I know PS3 supports DTCP (but I'm not interested in one), the new Netgear NeoTV units may support DTCP, but are around $129 or so. Would be nice if the Raspberry Pi (ARM based) supported DTCP in it's hardware or something as it can play XBMC now. There are PVR Live TV add-ons for XBMC for it too.

Any thoughts on this?


Best Regards,

DataCrypt
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post #144 of 181
1/8/13 at 1:15pm
I'm hoping for good news out of CES...
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post #145 of 181
1/8/13 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DataCrypt View Post

SiliconDust has announced DLNA support for their HDHomeRun Prime, but we still need a device with DTCP-IP support to play protected content (like that from Bright House Networks - where everything is copy-once protected).
I'd really want to use XBMC to watch TV and my movies - it's a great interface and far above Windows Media Center (WMC). I'm looking for alternatives to WMC (which is the ONLY one to support this now).
Does anyone think that XBMC will ever be able to do this via an add-on (pay or free)? I'd be willing to pay for an add-on if I could watch TV through XBMC (that supported protected content).
Wonder about these
http://www.digion.com/en/pf/dtcpipdms/index.htm
and
https://www.elliptictech.com/en/products-a-solutions/applications-software/dtcp
They seem to have software and an SDK
I know PS3 supports DTCP (but I'm not interested in one), the new Netgear NeoTV units may support DTCP, but are around $129 or so. Would be nice if the Raspberry Pi (ARM based) supported DTCP in it's hardware or something as it can play XBMC now. There are PVR Live TV add-ons for XBMC for it too.
Any thoughts on this?
Best Regards,
DataCrypt

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/silicondust-announces-two-new-hdhomerun-network-tuners-with-tr/

There will be a quad-tuner cablecard option with built-in transcoding to H.264. It's not 100% clear that it won't need DTCP-IP, but I'm hopeful. Either way, this opens up a lot of possibilities.
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post #146 of 181
1/8/13 at 6:32pm
From that article "... The rub, though, is that you'll need a DLNA Digital Media Player (or Renderer) that supports MPEG2, and that just isn't as common as you might think -- as well as DTCP-IP support for copy protected content..." So, the player seems to still need to support DTCP for protected content. I'm just hoping that someone makes an add-on for XBMC (as it is DLNA certified already) to support the DTCP (not sure if this is something that requires specific hardware though). The announced 4 tuner looks nice supporting MPEG2 and H.264 directly. Still the playing of copy protected content (from providers like Bright House Networks and Time Warner) will be a pain for those of use with the copy-once security they have set.

Best Regards,

DataCrypt
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post #147 of 181
1/8/13 at 7:16pm
Is DTCP-IP all thats needed for a device or software player to play back copy protected content?

It provides protection for the transport of content but no protection within the device or playback application AFAIK.

Are devices for example PS3, XBOX, or applications like XBMC certified and qualified by CableLabs to play copy protected content?
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post #148 of 181
1/9/13 at 9:58am
I'm a Mac/OSX guy and I would love to see liveTV, copy once, on my Mac, minus bootcamping.

Will it ever happen? Probably not.
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post #149 of 181
4/1/13 at 6:42pm
Copy-once on WD TV Live. That's interesting.

http://www.silicondust.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=47&p=87046&sid=b5ee407af35d63304e43dca8d34e7238#p87046
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post #150 of 181
4/2/13 at 4:12am
Now I'm intrigued. I saw this thread when it first started but quickly discovered I didn't have any devices that were DLNA compliant. I just picked up a WDTV Live media player that's the same version discussed in the link you posted. I plan on upgarding the firmware on my HDHR Prime this evening as well as installing the latest HDHR software on my HTPCs. This will be interesting if I can get live TV on the WDTV Live. I'm on FIOS and I don't have any premium channels so everything I receive is copy freely.

I have two SFF HTPCs that are used primarily for watching live TV and occasional viewing of ripped movies on my server. Neither one is really used for DVR functions or watching recorded shows very often. The WDTV Live can already play mkv's and other files streamed from my server so being able to tune live TV would make them a perfect candidate to replace both HTPCs. I'd just like to use a device that consumes less electricity than a full-blown HTPC running 24/7.
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